Book of the End
1. I'm referring to curent Ichi after the Dangai training, when he fully understood the usage of his Bankai. For now he is the fastest in Bleach universe.
2. Aizen trumped everyone with his skills and physical capacities in one on one fights in FKT exept for Yama and Isshin. He didn't use illusions in one on one fights. He only used it to escape Shunsui+Hitsu+Soi Fong+Shinji combo.
3. Of course Harribel or the majority of the Espada weren't speed monsters, but still they were insanely fast. So fast that the strongest Vice Captains couldn't react to their attacks and even some of the Captains at some point. That's why I'm saying that mere human cann't be on par with strong Shinigami and Arrancars in terms of speed and overall physical capacities, because human body has its limit. That is the most important thing about the Fullbringers. Jacky tried to explain it to Ichi, when she was training with him. Byakuya just didn't try to fight the way he fought Ichi in the begining of their fight in SS. His speed should trump Tsukishima's.
I can't argue about the very fact that Tsukishima cut Byakuya. I'm just trying to say that it's strange why Byakuya didn't avaoid his attack, because he obviously could.
We didn't see how he beat Yoruichi IIRC and I'm 100% sure he did so with illusions.Quote:
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying the Espada were insanely fast but that a human who displayed faster speed than one of the fastest Espada is not fast. That makes no sense.Quote:
I'm not contradicting myself at all. This human never showed any speed faster than Espada. The only thing that bothers me is why Byakuya didn't use any of his fast moves like normal Shunpo or Cicada to avoid the attack.
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Tsukishima can't be as fast as Byakuya. I'd understand if his fullbring was something that grants him speed (like Jackie's did). The only reason why Zommari couldn't cut him and Tsuki could is IMO preparation. Byakuya knew he's going against arrancar, Espada. Now I wouldn't care that much if I wen't to fight a human. His fault was that he underestimated Tsuki.
I won't belive that Tsukishima could ever be compared to Aizen. He has very good ability, indeed. But any shinigami who knows what to expect could defeat him IMO. I don't think he has much chances against good shunpo and abilities of shinigamis are too strong. And he's human.
But yeah, since it's the key probably to not let your opponent know your ability, then he has high chances of defeating even higher class of shinigami.
Byakuya has an air of superiority about him, a facet that causes him to look down on most people. This personality quirk shines through in his battles as well, as a seasoned fighter he knows severely underestimating an opponent could mean death even if you seem stronger than them. Honestly, the only person Byakuya has ever severely underestimated was Ichigo, not Zommari, not Tsukishima.
Everything about the Ichigo battle threw him for a loop. A dude he saw 3 days prior came back with a bankai. Huge WTF moment. A very rare ability, achieved by a human/shinigami...in 3 days that some never have the potential of getting. Also the Hollow component of the fight, so an aspect of underestimation and an element of surprise. In the Zommari fight, despite talking down to his opponent, he never truly underestimated him and as a result he never, ever lost control of the fight...lol Zommari never directly inflicted a wound on him. A feat Tsukishima accomplished despite Byakuya knowing an aspect of his abilities prior and knowing full well if he got slashed he could be in serious trouble.
Serenade explained in another thread a theory I think alot of people neglect when reading Bleach, I'll post it here
Tsukishima being human biggest fault lies in the fact that his durability as a human is not that high and as a result he is the easiest to kill of the 3 if he takes damage.Quote:
Last edited by cracker; November 03, 2011 at 12:27 PM.
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That said, I don't think humans are inherently weaker than shinigami. It is true they are less resistant to damage and significantly less damage would kill them however when it comes to fighting the issue at hand is specifically reiatsu. If their reiatsu is strong enough then keeping up with shinigami and fight evenly is perfectly possible. Remember ishida? Did he not beat the crap out of mayuri when his reiatsu was stronger? What about when chad and ishida defeated gantenbaine and cirucci? Both of those were former espada and in all likelyhood above numeros/fraccion and they still showed superior speed and firepower. Even orihime was able to block one of ulquiorra's attacks with her shield back in the day. The shinigami are winning because they have the stronger reiatsu's, not because they are inherently stronger and we know that humans have the capacity to increase their reiatsu a great degree (again, chad, ishida and now even ginjo seems to be on par with ichigo).
On topic: Kyouka Suigetsu is even more hax. Its the best ability there is. The conditions for invoking it are so easy too. Tsukishima actually has to hit you. Plus the KS effect lasts forever while we know Book of the End can be reversed. The only way I think KS hypnosis can be broken is if Aizen was killed. But I like BoTE more for the same reasons. Its something different, and despite the hax has limits. Its more cruel too. Tsuki can send people to the nut house very quickly. Kubo made a blunder with Aizen's character by overpowering him so much and I'm glad he seems to have learned from his mistake.
I can agree on the point that Tsukishima has a speed on average Vc's level, but mostly I agree that the reason why he managed to caught Byakuya of guard was his ability to change non living things to his benefit. Because remember that the same Byakuya was caught only once of guard in terms of speed and it was when Ichigo used his Bankai. And we know that Ichigo's Bankai works by insanely enhancing his speed and other physical capabilities, but also Ichi was rather fast even without his Bankai and that is why I believe that the most problem was not because Tsuki was so good, but because Byakuya was arrogant as always.
It's not that Fullbringers are so unpopular. Actually the majority of the forum members thought that they could take Captain level Shinigami, when the Arc started, but then when they saw their real power they got dissapointed. That's the only thing and don't try to change it the other way.
About Chad and Ishida... they took down trash ex Espada who couldn't even compare to the shitty Aaroniero, so do you believe that they can be a measurement? Also we were hinted that they got that strong mainly because they were affected at the begining by Hougioku and Ichigo's insane Reiatsu. About Ishida taking down Mayuri... Ishida used Final Quincy form, attack after which he loosed all his powers, so it can't be a measurement of his power, because he got it for several minutes. More importanly Mayuri is the weakest of Captains, so to get him as a measurement of Ishida's power is incorrect. Base Ishida is only at VC level and you should take in consideration that he was also a person that was trained by rather strong Quincy from his childhood and since then was fighting against Hollows and then was also fighting pretty strong oponents (at least for him), but any way he is still a person that is actually irrelevant when it comes to more or less serious fights as Chad and Inoue.
About Ruyken. We still don't know the extent of his power. He might be as strong as low level Captains as Mayuri or Komamura, but we don't know anything about him.
Actually when I disregarded Fullbringer's posibility to be a Captain Level I stated facts from the manga and didn't bash them only because I don't like them (but still I don't like them with the exeption of Ginjou). Also Ginjou isn't just a Fullbringer. He might be the same as Ichigo. He had at some point Shinigami powers and he might be also a son of Shinigami, that's wy this is quite a different story.
Yeah he was caught off guard once, because he didn't expect such speed. But then, when he was on guard - Ichigo speedblitzed him AGAIN! Byakuya could have been one-shotted TWICE! Its because of Ichigo's arrogance that he wasn't. Ichigo was seriously cocky back in those days....he was awesome. That and Byakuya had a massive plot shield back then too. He was the "main villain" of the SS arc so a one-panelling wouldn't make for good reading.Quote:
Like I said Byakuya's speed is overrated. I'm not denying that he's indeed very skilled at Shunpo, just like everything else. His trademark is being the all-around polished Captain. But in terms of pure speed? No. Not even top 5. Soi Fon is much faster. Byakuya was in trouble against a guy who could make 4 speed clones. He had to resort to using a technique he hates to save himself. A Soi Fon almost out of power could make something like 10 lol. You must know by now how I drone on about Kubo's patterns. Well did you notice this is Kubo's fight pattern for Byakuya: All his big solo fights have been against people faster than him!! Ichigo, Zommari and now Tsukishima. He managed to overcome the speed disadvantage before so he'll probably do it again. But Tsuki being faster makes perfect sense based on how Kubo writes his fights.
No. I stated a fact. Most people hated the Fullbringers and this whole arc almost from the beginning. I was one of the few defending it cause I felt Kubo's writing improved from last arc. Don't take my word for it, you can check most of the chapter discussions yourself. And most people, including myself, thought that apart from a couple, Xcution would be fodder. Kubo put Tsukishima and Ginjou (and Riruka) on another level in terms of power (and focus for Riruka) from the beginning. These three got volume covers and so obviously they're the important ones. Their good performances were to be expected.Quote:
First of all Aaroniero kept his spot because of his extreme potential. It had nothing to do with power. The ex-Expada are likely stronger than him. Even so, you would recall he thrashed Rukia before being done in by a surprise attack to his weak spot? Both he and the ex-Espada are above VC level. Proof?Quote:
- Renji struggled to defeat a garbage Fraccion even when he had his limiter off.
- Ikkaku struggled to defeat a Fraccion with Ban Kai and no limiter to begin with.
- Rangiku got her ass kicked one-on-one by Apache. Momo of all people had to save her.
- Then Momo got her ass kicked too lol. This was before the Halibabes even used that crazy monster.
- Ikkaku got owned again by another Fraccion. He wasn't using Ban Kai this time but going by his previous showing I doubt it would make any difference.
- Charlotte Cuuhlhourne took Yumichika to his limit.
*I'm using Yumi and Ikkaku here as well cause they are counted among VC-level fighters. The latter actually could have been one officially but doesn't want to leave Kenpachi.
The only VC I recall doing well against Fraccion are Kira (who had a perfect advantage over his opponent) and Hisagi, who was being strongly implied by Kubo to be the strongest VC. And you're not going to tell me that a Fraccion is stronger than an Espada, ex or otherwise, are you? Finally, Ishida totally outperformed Renji in the fight against Szayel-Aporro. In fact if Szayel had not suppressed their reiatsu, Ishida could have beaten him, a "proper" Espada, by himself. There is more than enough evidence to prove Ishida and by extension Chad, were stronger than the VC - almost 2 years ago!
No such hint was given. Thats how Chad got his powers. Which were very weak in the beginning. He got stronger by, y'know, fighting and training. Ishida didn't get any external push at all.Quote:
Its not that he took him down its that he used such little effort to do it. His reiatsu was already low before he used that form and then when he did, he one-shot Mayuri and his Ban Kai with only a third of its power. The only other person we have seen own a Captain in a real fight with so little effort is Aizen! Leaving FF aside, Ishida's base form is much stronger than in SS arc. He got training from Ryuuken remember? He had much more powerful base moves in Arrancar Arc.Quote:
Proof? There is none. And even supposing he was, thats not saying much cause ALL the Captains are strong. Its is this kind of thinking above that got people pwned by Kubo throughout all Arrancar Arc.Quote:
They are the main cast so we see them struggle more than anyone else since we are following them all the time. Even Ichigo we have seen struggle a lot. But when the REAL important fights come, they won't be irrelevant. Their strength is increasing all the time. They will surpass most if not all of the secondary cast. Again: has a power limit ever been mentioned for Humans?Quote:
Nearly the whole fandom always thought Ryuuken was some super-high tier because of the company he keeps and how Kubo revealed his and Isshin's powers at the same time. This is why I asked about him because there is a double standard concerning people who are liked or cool, like him, and those that aren't. And there is no such thing as a low level Captain. Kubo keeps pwning people with this view. Even Sajin was said to have incredible power. And you didn't state any facts...I did. You just stated your opinion, which is clearly biased against Humans. The only thing I agreed with in your entire wall of text is the last two lines. Ginjou should cause serious trouble and impact the plot too, otherwise there is no point to this arc.Quote:
Last edited by Xerneas; November 08, 2011 at 09:00 AM.
I honestly think tsukishima and ginjo were above the VC level. Otherwise they wouldn't even match up to chad or ishida which as we saw should not be the case and perhaps they should be stronger, specially ginjo now. I don't think it would make sense that privaron espada would have been of the same power as a numero.
Also, it is not just about the forum members. In japan, the fullbringers have been so grossly unpopular it is not even funny. At the very least they were far less popular than what they were in this forum which is not something to take lightly.
Actually he isn't faster than Vice Captain and obviously it's not a fact. The same Hisagi who was maybe strongest Vice Captain, but still Vice Captain managed to match for some point Tousen in speed and obviously Tousen was a Captain Level and not even the weakest. Of course he managed to do it only while Tousen was without a mask, but no way Ishida shoew any ability to be that fast. Even during his fight against the weakest Captain Mayuri (and obviously the slowest one) he didn't manage to match his speed and would be dead if not for his Final Quincy Form, so where do you get his speed?Quote:
I agree that Ichi was faster with his Bankai, but only with his Bankai and only because his Bankai revolves around speed and power increase, so of course he would overpower mostly everyone in this department. For now maybe only Yama can challenge him in this department and maybe Isshin, cause he supposedly has the same Bankai. About Byakuya not being in the top 5 Captains in terms of speed... I can't agree. If we count current Captains who will be really fast apart from Yama? Soi Fong, Shunsui and supposedly Unohana judging her Databook stats, but then Byakuya is at least in top 5 in terms of speed.Quote:
About Zomari being faster than Byakua... that actually doesn't make sense. 1. make a clone of yourself isn't nesesarily a proof of being faster in this manga or do you think that Shunsui or Aizen were slower than Zomari or maybe Starrk? And even though Byakuya was faster with Cicada. And finally I've already said why I think that Tsukishima being faster than Byakuya makes no sense: human body has its limits and as we saw in SS Arc that Ichigo's bones were breaking of the pressure they suffered because of his speed, so of course Tsukishima wouldn't logically cope with such a speed to be faster than Byakuya in his human body and that's a logic and not only my opinion, but actually a manga fact.
1. About Aaroniero. Why do you believe that he only kept his spot because of his ability? It's quite logical that he got a big Reiatsu, because of his ability. As we know Aizen measured the strength of everyone according to their Reiatsu level and thus his Espada ranking was also based on this. And it was quite oficial.Quote:
2. About ex-Espada. Yes I do believe that they might be weaker than Fracions or Numeros and that's the same reason I stated above. The ranking among Espada after Aizen came was different, because he made Hollows that were just Hollows in Arrancars and ex Espada were supposedly those who were before naturaql Arrancars. Going by your logic Ishida is stronger than Hitsugaya who couldn't beat the strongest Numeros after Espada without lifting a limiter... Also the same Ikkaku was that bad against Numeros only because he didn't want to use his Bankai until he was beaten so much. With his Bankai he would one-shot that Numeros. It was quite obvious as he one-shotted him while in a trashed state, when his Bankai got fully charged. Ikkaku's another fight again was that only because he didn't want to use his Bankai. The same was in Yumichika's case. Do you really believe that if Yumichika used his ability right from get go he would have any troubles with his oponent?
Actually it was hinted in the begining by Urahara. It was or before SS or during Chad's training with Renji.Quote:
Ok, he might have taken him quite easy, but it was Mayuri (the weakest) and especially it was quite a surprise, when have dead person gets such a power-up and also it was just a Plotkai. The only good thing it actually was for a short time, so it wasn't that bad. Of course Ishida got stronger in his base form after SS Arc, but not because he trained, but mostly because he got better weapon. He actually didn't train with his dad. His dad only helped him to regain powers and gave him new weapon. That's all.Quote:
The stats from the first Databook. He is shown to be the weakest. And I'm not saying this because of Databook stats, but he never showed anything to proof otherwise. And about Aizen... he was just that strong to pawn anyone, even though they were Captains. Only Yama and Isshin were better in base form.Quote:
Of course they will become stronger, but in the previous Arc even such people as Hisagi or Kira or Ikkaku who were obviously stronger than Ichigo's crew were shown as rather useless against serious oponents do you think that Ichigo's crew will really become relevant if they were really one shotted in the begining of the next Arc by obviously, at least, not stronger oponents (I hope we won't argue that Espada, Tousen and Gin were stronger than Fullbringers).Quote:
1. I don't have any double standarts.Quote:
2. It's quite obvious that there is low, middle and high tier of Captains. Or do you think Mayuri is as strong in field with just his Shinigami abilities as Byakuya or Byakuya or Kenpachi are as strong as Shunsui? Not even talking about Yama or Aizen.
3. And please don't try to bash me, because during all the talk you were trying to show as all I'm saying is opinion, while your thoughts are facts. I just don't like, when people are changing discusion in this department. I actually tried to not only share my view, but also explain it with manga facts.
....Dude. Come on. Like kkck said, an ex-Espada being weaker than a Numeros (except for WW cause his case is unique) makes no sense. None. Going by your logic, Neliel is weaker than a Numeros because she is a natural Arrancar and got replaced. If they were that weak, Aizen would have demoted them right down to Numeros like a Fraccion - not a special title like Privaron Espada. Simple as that. They were given that rank as a form of encouragement. All three were trying to get more powerful to move back into the main Espada group. Which would suggest that their powerlevel was not far removed from the lower Espada. The exact same thing happened to Szayel-Aporro Granz. He got kicked out of the main Espada (meaning he was a Privaron as well at some point) - worked to increase his powerlevel and then got back in. So was he suddenly at Fraccion level power when he was demoted? No.
I'm not bashing...sometimes my posts come off like that cause I'm very direct. But lets cut to the chase and get to the real issue here. Instead of continually responding to each other's wall of text and derailing this topic, you can just answer one question. Am I right in thinking that the reason you believe Privaron are so weak is because they were defeated by Ishida and Chad? Same reason why you think Mayuri is the weakest Captain without a shred of proof? If so, then that just proves my main point, which is Humans (and anyone they do well against), are devalued.
P.S. There are no Captain power ranks. Thats mostly fan BS to cater to their favourites. The only Captain that is clearly on another level is Yamamoto and he's the Commander so thats to be expected. Aizen is gone. All the rest will be able to compete with each other regardless of age. They have disadvantages/advantages over each other and the reiatsu gap isn't big enough like with Yama-jii, where things will just fail hard.
Actually that's quite simple. All the Espada was numbered according to their strength and also the strongest Numeros (11). It was also stated by that Numeros (11th). About Neliel... she wasn't natural Arrancar. She was part of the actual Espada, but then was trashed by Noitora and Zaelaporro and then she was replaced. Of course current Nelliel isn't as strong as current 3rd or 4th Espada. I would actually doubt that she was stronger than Noitora in his released form. Even though I like her.
I can also be direct, but still it's the same that you don't have any proof and continues to disregard my points. I actually stated a proof about Mayuri. There were stats in the first Databook. And yes I do believe that if Ishida and Chad managed to take down Privaron Espada that easy that means that Privaron Espada is weak. Also, going by your logic Chad is stronger than Ishida, cause Chad's oponent was stronger as he had higher rank among Privaron Espada and way higher. Also about your thoughts on Numeros, Fraccion and Espada... Remember Harribel's flashback, when she was Hollow Vasto Lord and she was practically killed by some weak Adjucas who got a Shinigamification by Hougioku and became Arrancar, so it really breaks your thoughts, because it can be quite posible that when they were the first Espada (natural Arrancars) they might as well be weaker than current Numeros, because they were stated to be one step lower than current Espada. And that was manga fact stated by those Arrancars. Of course the gap between the strongest Numeros and Privaron Espada might not be that big, but still there is.
P.S. I'm saying it again: it's not a fanbased. All I said was according the stats from the first Databook and according the manga. How come when Kenpachi managed to take fight both Tousen and Koma while they were in Shikai, then take down Tousen in Bankai and then fight a bit against Koma in Bankai and was really fine and wasn't exausted and you try to imply that there isn't any power gap between Kenpachi and Tousen with Koma? The same Shunsui stated that Hitsugaya may overcome him in about 200 years, so of course there isn't any gap between Captains. The same Yama said that Shunsui and Ukitake were stronger than any current Shinigami who went out of Shinigami Academy (not counting only Aizen, but it was due to his illusions).
The Harribel thing was anime filler.
I think he meant the Captains can't really fight amongest themselves without the possibly of taking damage, sometimes alot. Even a match between Shunsui and Koma, Shunsui can't underestimate him he could easily die.