Last edited by Goral; November 14, 2011 at 01:21 AM.
In the raw Silva was always looking at the monitor.
I don't see much to make out of that scene. The monitor is pretty big and Silva seems to be looking forward all the time. Even if he was looking in Miluki's direction, since Miluki is sitting near the center of the monitor (he's at the keyboard) he'd still be looking at the monitor.
I think you guys are right, silva is always looking at the monitor. It kinda seems like an optical illusion though, if I look at it one way it appears silva is looking at milluki and if I look another it seems like silva is looking at the monitor.
I thought about this arc some more and the whole Hisoka/Ilumi plan still makes no sense if they were outside. Consider the following facts:
1. None of the Zs other than Killua knew Alluka has to be near the object to heal it.
2. Silva's dialogue implies he never planned on letting Killua leave the room. He expected Killua to make the wish inside the room.
3. There is no rule that says the wisher can't be the one who have to answer the pestering. From Killua's explanation, there's an indefinite amount of time after you make a wish before Alluka starts pestering (otherwise she should've pestered either Canary or Gotoh before Tsubone showed up), so it'd seem the wisher is only safe because they got away from Alluka, not because the wisher has any particular immunity.
4. Therefore, if Killua made a wish inside the room as originally planned, he'd have to stay inside the room until Alluka pestered him. If he leave the room, the Zs will definitely immediately ship someone from halfway across the world to die instead (they clearly don't believe the requests can be fulfilled at all).
However, if this was the case then it'd be too late unless you really think Hisoka charging in from outside and killing Alluka while being protected by Killua is going to beat the timer for 4 refusals.
Note that Killua can't leave the room either if he was planning on fulfilling the pesterings had he wished for Gon's recovery since it's easy to figure out that his family will definitely kidnap some random guy in his absence to die instead.
So if Hisoka wasn't in the room, the plan would've utterly failed even if it went according to how the Zs planned, because Killua was never going to leave that room until he got the requests, and by then it'd be too late. I guess they can go in and try to subdue Killua, but that is risky since Alluka obviously knows all their names. Of course they can do what Tsubone did, but somehow I don't think that's a reliable method or they would never have to fear Alluka so much (it'd be trivial for almost any Z to stay out of her range indefinitely even if she was not confined, not to mention whoever isn't the current target can easily subdue Alluka). I guess you can maybe the run away method only works if you can at least fulfill one request, but in that case again none of the Z can risk it since they don't know if they can fulfill any request.
Actually, Hisoka offers no advantage over any other Z because it's likely the moment he walks in, the first thing Killua will say is, "Hisoka!", therefore telling Alluka what his name is. Once Alluka knows the name of the people there is no particular advantage of him killing Alluka compared to say, Silva. Unless he's sure he can kill Alluka before his name gets called out, the fact Alluka doesn't know who he is is of no relevance. But, if he can do that, then surely Silva can pull it off too, and if you can kill Alluka before someone can call your name out, you should be able to do it before Alluka can finish a request too.
Now of course the logical explanation here is that Silva might fear Alluka's power but he's not going to kill her either. But then why should Hisoka risk the wrath of one of the most powerful family around? Let's say everything went according to the plan, so Killua made a wish while inside (remember, Silva never planned on Alluka leaving the room) and Hisoka jumped in from a nonexistent window and killed Alluka while on camera. Is Silva going to say, "We should thank this clown that came out of nowhere and killed my daughter." Why should Hisoka risk this, even though his life is on the line? Wouldn't Ilumi be a far better choice? At least Ilumi might be able to convince his father that he did what had to be done. How is Hisoka supposed to fight his way out of the vault deep in Z family if Silva decided that he really didn't like an outsider waltzing in and killing his daughter? Sure Hisoka is stronger than Ilumi, but the difference between the two seems very small. You can argue that since Ilumi is trained as an assassin, he might even be better at doing this.
It almost looks like Ilumi's trying to set Hisoka up to die. I really don't see how Hisoka is supposed to walk out of that vault alive if he somehow killed Alluka in there, which is what the Zs planned all along.
---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 AM ----------
Oh and suppose the wisher cannot be the one getting the requests. Again, Silva never planned on letting either Alluka or Killua leave the room until the wish is over. This means Killua would have to be the wisher no matter what because there isn't anyone else that can be used! If the wisher can never be one getting the requests, then there is literally no reason to fear about the requests because there is no other possible target. I guess you can say 'what if Killua wished to teleport himself out to the hospital' but in that case a wish like that would certainly defeat whatever plan Ilumi had to begin with.
Actually this scenario would only make sense if Ilumi was trying to set Hisoka up to a trap. The only logical sequence of event would be Killua make a wish and then Hisoka have to do requests. If the situation was reversed, Hisoka, based on what he knows so far, will probably wish for something like 'upsy-daisy' since he'd have to realize that if he made a big wish and Killua (the only other person in the room) failed the request then he'd die too. In that case there would be no reason to kill Alluka either. Of course, it'd make no sense that Ilumi is trying to kill Hisoka because Ilumi would definitely die too. Of course it also makes no sense for Hisoka to do requests since if he failed them, then Killua, Ilumi, and Hisoka are still all dead. I guess in this case the rest of the Z family will survive.
Last edited by Phantron; November 14, 2011 at 04:20 AM.
Thus, there's absolutely no way Killua would be in danger so far. Illumi and Hisoka are perfectly aware that replying to the PC pesterings posed no danger whatsoever, and that without help Killua wouldn't take on the next pesterings.
Despite all the attention the Zs are giving him, they weren't really concerned about their safety prior to making this wish. It's after he made that wish that they would be concerned, and they were likely waiting to see the outcome (how would Killua wish).
Last edited by Jack Van Burace; November 14, 2011 at 08:22 AM.
Come on, Killua wont scream "Hisoka!". He's far too smart for this and He proved to not make anything like that when He first entered the Genei Ryodan meeting place.
And we don't know if Illumi doesn't know about Nanika and how He needs to touch to fix. And even if they did not know of this rule, they can assume that Killua would try to get out first of there to free Alluka afterwards. After all Illumi said "wishing in the wrong order" that mostly assumes that there would be at least 3 wishes to be done.
Granted, Illumi's plan was to interrupt Killua's wish (of healing Gon) to which Illumi lacked the knowledge that Alluka has to be near Gon in the first place (though we don't know for sure).
IF Illumi really did not know about the "getting close to Gon clause", then in this case, Illumi have already failed the mission.
The other logical reason to that is that Illumi also knows that Alluka will have to be near Gon; somehow I feel that that's why Killua stated that the journey to bring Alluka to Gon would be the most difficult, because he's aware of Illumi and the butlers.
Yes I agree. Killua cannot wish two consecutive times, but he is still exposed to risks of being pestered even though he's already fulfilled 3 pesters and then completed one wish before.Quote:
That's true, so yes, either Illumi failed, or they knew that Killua was going to bring Alluka out first anyway. And even if suppose Killua made the Gon-healing wish (and granted, even though now we know it can't be), Silva will not allow Killua being pestered at all.Quote:
Well they (or just Silva) can probably just sleep gas Alluka or something. And come on, it's the Zs, Alluka has no combat power at all. Any member will be able to knock her out without her even speaking a word, much like Chrollo knocked Neon out at the Yorkshin Arc.Quote:
I believe Killua has some plan of his own besides really just go through all the pesters after Gon is being healed, that may very well be a plot twist, but maybe Killua really is going to bear it all, we'll see.
Yeah, I think all of the Zs plus Hisoka can silence Alluka before she makes even 1 pester.Quote:
But then this scenario is only worth thinking if you are sure that Hisoka and Illumi knew that Alluka was locked up in the vault being monitored by Silva.Quote:
We don't know for sure yet, again, I think maybe Illumi had already failed....OR maybe Illumi knew that Killua was going to bring Alluka out anyway... this will make more sense because Illumi cannot get close or inside the vault with Silva being there all the time, so Illumi KNEW that Killua had to get Alluka out (my assumption) and so Illumi planned to intercept from the mountain to the hospital. I think this will make more sense.
More importantly is the fact that Illumi and Hisoka were not in the room, otherwise Illumi would have stepped out once Alluka turned into Nanika, in attempt to make Killua wish in the "proper" order. This is the only logical scenario IF Illumi and Hisoka were in the room.
I think you have a point about Hisoka-killing-Alluka-in-front-of-Silva situation, which would have brought a huge dilemma to Hisoka if that were the case, but then again, I believe Illumi and Hisoka's original plan did not involve Silva at the scene. They were NOT in the vault.
Illumi's priority was to make Killua NOT wish the Gon-healing wish. Killing Alluka is the last resort; I believe Illumi would have done it himself but then he knew Killua would have done all he could to protect Alluka, that's why he wanted Hisoka out of sight when negotiating with Killua (although this scenario has never happened).Quote:
That's IF Illumi fails to convince/subdue Killua AND they were in Silva's sight when this negotiation happens (inside the vault), but they are not inside the vault, so I don't think Illumi is setting Hisoka to die, but yes it was a lot of risks nevertheless on Hisoka's side.Quote:
---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 AM ----------
I think that's incorrect. You have already mentioned it on your point number 4 that the person can still be pestered even after he's granted with one wish. Additionally, it was stated by Milluki : Rule number 5 says that you cannot wish 2 consecutive times, but it did not say you cannot be pestered consecutive times.Quote:
I disagree, because then Illumi himself would very likely die (if Hisoka cannot run away from the pesters), and quite possibly along with Killua, given that they had spend some time with Hisoka.Quote:
GODDAMN that was a lengthy reply, never done that before lol...
Anyway I have one question though, what is the "command" that Killua was talking about?
---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------
---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------
First, I assume there's no way Ilumi knows about Alluka have to be physically near the object. Silva and Miluki didn't know about it. Killua said "yep the rest of the family didn't know", and since Ilumi isn't particularly attached there's no reason why he would know at all.
Let's break down what Ilumi knows in two scenarios. Remember, I'm assuming Ilumi doesn't know the range limitation on Alluka, so he has to assume it was possible to wish for Gon to be cured from the vault.
A: If wisher cannot be the target of pestering.
In this case, there is obviously no threat to Killua whatsoever while he's alone with Alluka. Ilumi would have to have planned on having Killua somehow getting out of that room (using rules Ilumi did not know about), and then trying to intercept halfway with Hisoka's help. This is despite the fact the most likely way for Killua to get out, from Ilumi's point of view, would be to use the wish, and if Killua wished for something like "teleport us out of here' that'd make his attempt to intercept completely pointless. This would mean Ilumi possess the power of nonsensical deduction since he has to be planning around several things clearly outside of his knowledge, including a power that should've easily circumvented any plan he may have had.
B. If wisher can be target of pestering
In this case it'd be pretty clear what Killua ought to do is wish to cure Gon and then wait until Alluka eventually pesters him (since he's the only target). In this case none of the Zs would be able to come in since they could end up as target of requests too. For whatever reason we can rule out a Z charging in through the door and kill/incapaciate Alluka, because if they could do that then there's literally no reason to ask for Hisoka's help. There's no way Silva is weaker than Hisoka so if this is doable as a function of power, Silva has to be able to do anything Hisoka can. I'm guessing the explanation here is that if Alluka knows your name then you can't stop the pestering at all (otherwise it really wouldn't make sense why her power is so feared).
Now Hisoka has an advantage in that Alluka doesn't know his name, but Killua sure does. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your name to be called out if you charge in through a door attempting to kill Alluka, so that's really not much of an advantage either. Besides, originally Ilumi told him to kill Alluka if it looks like Killua can't handle the pesterings, so his role is supposed to be reactive. If Killua can't handle the pesterings, from previous examples we see you might have about 10 seconds before you fail all 4 once you start refusing. In the picture we don't see Ilumi in the room, so if Hisoka wasn't already inside, is Ilumi supposed to charge into the control room and say, "Father, I hired this guy to take out Alluka, open the door!" and Silva open the door, Hisoka charges in, and of course by then they're probably all dead since the door seems to take a while to open in your typical high tech super secure fashion.
So unless Hisoka is already in the room, he wouldn't be able to killl Alluka on time anyway. That said, if Hisoka is already in the room, presumably he did not do so with Silva's approval, so he's likely to be dead assuming Silva at all cares about his daughter. Silva might decide this guy knows too much even if he doesn't care about his daughter. It seems to me no matter what, Hisoka is a dead man if he was supposed to be involved while Alluka is in the vault. But if Hisoka was supposed to do his part elsewhere, that would mean Ilumi has to know:
1. Alluka needs to be physicall near object to heal it (no indication whatsoever that he'd know).
2. Killua will somehow get out of the room with Alluka, but...
3. Without using a power that makes pursuing/interception impossible (i.e. wished to be teleported away).
Then again, Ilumi has been described as a seriously messed up individual too, so maybe we're not supposed to make sense of his plan.
The 'command' Killua talks about is that he can command Alluka to do something. We don't know what the rules for that is, but one reasonable theory I saw so far is that the command structure is the opposite of the wish, and this ablity is invoked by keywords (most likely 'nanika'). You would do 3 favors for nanika first and then you can command her to do something. Presumably this power has to be weaker than the wish, but since Alluka's wishing power is described as nearly infinite, even a weakened version is still pretty powerful. I'm pretty sure Killua just commanded nanika to kiss him instead of using a wish, since the request on Tsubone is way out of the line compared to what a wish ought to be. If Killua's wish was 'kill mother', the request would have to be harder than requiring toenail. If it was 'kiss me on the cheek' then toenail is way too demanding. I don't think you can say the difficulty was just the two averaged because otherwise you can dilute any wish to something like:
"If I say X in the next 30 minutes do (extremely hard thing), but if I say Y in the next 30 minutes do (trivial thing), and if I say Z in the next 30 minutes do (trivial thing), and..." If you add enough clauses, and assuming this method works, you can basically dilute anything to a low price, and yet still get your wish because you're in control of what to say!
So it'd only make sense if Tsubone was fulfiling the requests from the PC wish. Note that Miluki questioned why is the price to pay for a PC so low, and his suspicion makes a lot of sense. Why should you get a computer for fulfilling request like pat someone on the head?
---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
Hmm, I just noticed something. The requests (for the wish) are from nanika (Killua says even he can't predict when nanika shows up and start demanding). Killua said nanika calls him'Killua' as opposed to 'big brother', but he was never called 'Killua' by Alluka in that room.
So there's no way he could've fulfilled any requests while he was in the vault, so it was not even possible for him to use the wish. Therefore what he did had to be the condition for the 'command'.
I think Killua's big advantage is that since he has two different 'names' to Alluka/nanika, he always knows which one is asking. For the others, even if they know this rule, if Alluka and nanika calls them by the same name (a very likely scenario) then they'd never be able to know who is the one currently making the requests.
---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------
More on the names... Miluki speifically said that Alluka never makes request to father/mother, and he assumes Killua did something similar to what he did.
This is actually very important when it comes to names, because if you assume the same naming scheme holds, then the corresponding names for the two personalities should be something like father/Silva and mother/Kikyo. Since Alluka's ability is not unlike an aura ability with complicated conditions, Silva would surely notice that sometimes he's being called "Silva" versus "Father". If you assume Alluka isn't very close to either Ilumi or Miluki, it is possible she just calls them Ilumi/Miluki the whole time (oniichan is almost always a term of endearment). Now, Kalluto could be close to Alluka (assuming Alluka is the person Kalluto is trying to rescue), but Alluka is older than Kalluto, which means Alluka would call Kalluto by his name anyway. I don't know if Killua's trying to hide this from his father on purpose, but it seems like there are only 3 people whose name you can use to distinguish which personality in charge and the other 2 candidates don't know about it.
Last edited by Phantron; November 14, 2011 at 02:10 PM.
@ Phantron: yeap, the conveyor belt is likely similar to what Illumi did every time he tested the wishes. And every time he wished for something (I bet he made plenty of them for his own pleasure, like Milluki did). I'm pretty sure that's how it works!
However, guys, I JUST FIGURED WHERE THIS IS ALL GOING!
[lengthy prior explanation]
Remember when I said HxH's arcs have a main theme related to mankind's addictions? That theory functions great until Ant-arc, since that one has got me a bit confused. Anyways, I just figured what that one and this one are about: gluttony and lust, respectively. I'm sure of it now.
Skipping the Ant-arc explanation, ALLUKA IS THE EMBODIMENT OF LUST!
Lust, contrary to common knowledge, isn't just about sexuality. Lust is the desire to embrace the world, to be at a priviledged position and to ripe the fruits of that. Lust is a seeking of desires, but it differs from gluttony in a particular part, where in one you're satisfyed with immediate pleasure, regardless of your status, and the other doesn't care about the feeling, but the acknowledgement by others.
As you might have guessed, gluttony isn't about just food either, it's about pleasure for itself deatached from meaning. A person that eats after its hunger is over, that eats just for the sake of feeling the flavor. That's why gluttony is commonly related to food. But it also applies to compulsive gaming, drugs, and anything that's not related to a need other than raw pleasure.
Lust refers to fulfilling your desires, and desire isn't pleasure. It's about what you crave for ego-related issues. It's a power thing. You desire and you need to get it, even if what you desire will only bring you pain and suffering. Therefore, Alluka, a wish granting "genie" will satisfy you every desire, and a lustfull person will step on anyone in order to get that wish satisfyed. Oh, and they're not wishes, they're desires fulfilled.
If you read everything up until now, you're probably also thinking about Pariston. He is the embodiment of a lustfull person, and will do everything to attend to his desires. Never before have I seen such a lustfull character in HxH.
[/lenghty prior explanation]
Ok, either you read the long part or not, consider how Pariston is monitoring Gon's status. And think where is Killua taking Alluka to. It's more than obvious that Gon's healing will happen miraculously, and will draw enourmous attention from everyone, specially those constantly monitoring his state. I won't say his name, but it's the Rat's zodiac representative.
THERE's where this arc is heading! Pariston will discover Alluka, and just like in everything, he'll use all the methods he can to put his hands on her and get things done his way. He's the person to desire most in the world, and she's the desire fulfiller. She's his Golden Eggs' Goose!
From what's described so far I think it's more likely Alluka goes against Pariston's plans since he's described as someone who wants to purposely make things harder for himself for the sheer enjoyment. He seems to lust for challenge more than power itself, because it really doesn't look like he's supposed to have a hard time winning the election if he didn't subject himself to unfavorable rules given what we know so far about him.
The problem with Ilumi's plan is that if he assumes the wisher cannot be the requestee, then dropping a guy via a conveyor belt/trap door is foolproof and Hisoka was never needed. If Ilumi assumes the wisher can be the requestee, then he'd still need Hisoka to be extremely close to Killua to have a shot at reacting on time. We can assume the door in Alluka's room is something that doesn't open easily/quickly (looks like your generic ultra security door that has like 5 layers of reinforced whatever). The bigger question, though, is why would Hisoka go along with it, because even if he somehow successfully killed Alluka inside the vault, it seems utterly impossible for him to leave the place alive. Killua would want him dead, and presumably Silva didn't want his daughter to die either (if he wanted that he's more than capable of killing her long before Killua got there). Just Silva and Killua should be more than enough to kill him, not counting anyone else who might show up to help. Even if Ilumi joined the fight, I don't see anyone else in the Z family siding with Ilumi over Silva so it'd at best be delaying the inevitable.
It'd make more sense if Ilumi was the one who killed Alluka because I think he'll at least survive (maybe get banished or locked up forever, but he probably won't die). I just don't see the Z family letting an outsider waltz in and kill one of them and let that guy leave.
You know, I don't think Pariston is a person who makes things more difficult for enjoyment. I think he tries to look like that because that spread fear and mental advantage. It's a way to be always on top and make the opponent always nervous.
I also thought firstly that Pariston would find out eventually about Alluka and He would starts a conflict with the Zoldycks. Although this theory is only based on my desire of seeing Pariston, the Zoldycks and the Zodiacs fighting. :F