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^I think you grossly understimate the VAs. The VAs are rokushiki and haki users, they should be closer to current luffy than lucci as we last saw him. Heck, if it would really take a couple of VAs to take down lucci then there is no way in hell those two VAs would have landed hits so easily on luffy during the war even if he was exhausted. IMO at least the VAs shown in the double spread will be strong enough to give anyone in the monster trio a run for their money (and honestly, even ivankov feared them and he was able to give sanji the fodder treatment).
Hodi only took pills against luffy at the end of his fight when luffy took him out with giant gatling. Before that he never took one pill against luffy. Hodi was forced to tank hits not because he was weak but because luffy is monstrously strong. I agree in that hodi is not as good a character as lucci was however your inherently biased comment "his special ability is to eat pills and tank hits" is by no means even a mediocre argument in suggesting that lucci has anywhere near the power to even scratch hodi. Even then, you are forgetting that even before his transformation hodi was strong enough to break through a wall without any momentum whatsoever, he had military training and fishman karate (at least there is no way he could easily dodge the attack which luffy avoided with observation haki). Even if lucci manages to pull a barage of attacks on hodi, he would have to be at it for hours for it to do what you claim it will do and the fact of the matter is that in that scenario a single bite from hodi would rip him appart (lets face it, if luffy with COA was not able to defend from the attack then lucci would be quite literally torn appart by it easily).
I think that Lucci is a pretty Reliable threat...
I don't think the VA's are weak...
I said the VA's would probably beat Lucci if you read my post correctly...
---------- Post added at 07:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 PM ----------
Anyway, I don't see why it's so hard to see where I am coming from...
Hody actually didn't do any damage to Luffy on Land... at all... he had no advantage until he went in the water... and even then he still lost...
Last edited by RezzieThaRapper; November 30, 2011 at 08:04 PM.
Just as Rob Lucci wouldn't have done any damage at all to CoA infused Luffy Imo. So he lost in the end, that's your argument now?!
You don't respond to 99% of my of kkck's arguments, I don't see why I should care to discuss this any further with you. I see where you're coming from, you just seem to ignore our points. That's highly annoying, over & out.
Last edited by Schabrak; November 30, 2011 at 08:38 PM.
The issue is that where you are coming from does not quite add up. So what if hodi did no harm against luffy on land? Is there any reason to believe lucci would actually do any damage to current luffy? Heck, is there any reason at all to suggest luffy would not win against ALL of CP9 with even more ease than against hodi (as it is sure as hell not one of them would stand up after 1 hit)?
Okay I think you guys have everything I'm saying twisted... in no way am I saying Lucci would beat PT Luffy... he'd be helpless (though not Fodder)
But I'll change up the way I present my argument as too make it clear...
This is in the broadest term I can use... A battle of Pre-New World foes... who's levels are drastically lower than someone trained by the Pirate King's Right Hand (Barring Hody the benefit of fighting in the Ocean)
Think about it like this, Crocodile was beaten in Part One, but that doesn't mean he'll lose to Hody...
The VA Giant Luffy sent flying was beaten in Part One, but that don't mean he'll lose to Hody...
Hody is useless on land on a fight against Post Timeskip Luffy, and he probably would have pushed Luffy to a similar limit on Land as other villians in Part One... but Lucci is someone who beat Luffy within literal inches of his life with pure brute force...
I think you guys are setting the difference of Power between villians between the time-skip to wide...
Lucci would have trouble initially, think of his advantages, and wear Hody down the rest of the fight...
And I'm tired of arguing my point... And I'm tired of being called biased... and to the guy who said I'm non-responsive to 99% of the arguments you guys are throwing out, needs to go back and read my other post... this fight is subjective to the fact that Luffy was so overpowered... that the only impressive thing that Oda could write in about Hody is that he is really good at taking hits to the face... no matter how powerful you are, if you can't counter, block, or do anything against speedsters in general, why should I think someone who has the ability to do all that would lose so easily...
The one's who are not listening to arguments are you guys...
Now watch you come back with the same argument that means nothing really against an opponent like Lucci...
He's a tank with no real offensive capabilities... and his only defense against a martial artist of Lucci's caliber is taking his insane amount of hits until he finally gives in...
You are saying hodi has no offensive capacity but that makes no sense whatsoever. Hodi got thrown around because his opponent was luffy, someone with real actual power. Lucci is 100 times weaker than luffy, lucci would unquestionably be defeated by luffy with far more ease than a pacifista because lucci is far weaker than a pacifista (unless you want to argue lucci would be a match for the entire strawhat crew even thought luffy alone defeated him). Lets make a few comparisons to show you what I mean. Zoro, sanji and luffy got defeated by kizaru. Does this mean they do not have offensive capacities? Or does it mean kizaru was simply that strong? Luffy was on the run against mihawk, he did not have a shred of a chance in hell of landing a hit without having the guy cut his arm off or even dealing damage to him. Does that mean luffy had no offensive capacity or does it mean mihawk was just that good? The only way your argument would make sense in this regard is if luffy had a level of strength to which lucci could compare to which is not the case in any imaginable scenario. Luffy right now is simply so much more powerful than what lucci was that it does not even begin to be funny. I don't think you even understand why the pacifista comparison is relevant. You seem to think lucci would actually have a chance in hell against one when every indication the manga has given is that 1 of them would have an easy time with lucci (as they would have had with any strawhat pre time skip). Once all of this is taken into consideration where exactly are lucci's advantages? Physical strength? There is no way lucci can even begin to compare in that regard to hodi. Hodi already showed more than standard super strength and his transformation provided him with a HUGE boost. Plainly impossible. Speed? Hard to argue considering either hodi or lucci would be slow as hell compared to luffy (with the exception that lucci would not stand up to a second punch). Even then, I just can't conceive how you concluded lucci would be so much faster than hodi. IMO lucci would not hold the sort of advantage in speed which you would think he will hold over him and would allow him to deal the thousands of attacks he would need to actually deal real damage (and that is assuming lucci has enough stamina to continually attack for that long with that intensity). Hodi is does not have the mastery lucci has over rokushiki with fishman karate but he does have the moves (he is not just a brawler) and a set of attacks which although beginners move are formidably powerful given the no less than insane physical strength hodi has at his disposal. There is no way in hell lucci would be able to avoid hodi's water arrows with the ease luffy did, he does not have anywhere near luffy speed nor the haki and considering one of those shots has the strength to advance almost 2 kms I would think only one would be extremely damaging to someone like lucci who is merely at the level luffy had before the timeskip.
Last edited by kkck; December 01, 2011 at 12:04 AM.
In fsct this argument isn't going anywhere...
Lucci is likely capable of squaring off with the weakest of VA's
Despite the fact that Lucci is at least as strong as Luffy was pre-time skip should be more than enough to say this match will be far more even than you think considering the ease he fought him with prior...
If you want to use a good argument, my roommate brought one up... and it's good so I'm including it...
Luffy was still able to defeat Lucci after riding through the super storm, taking out 3,000 marines alone, fighting Bleuno and almost drowning twice (when chimney saved him, lol)
That type of argument points out the weakness in Lucci...
not some A defeated B at this LVl. and A defeated C at this level, therefor C can deafeat B... whatever...
I'm done... for tonight anyway... xD
Well, and what reason do we have to believe that is not the case? We have actually seen several comparisons of the sort and we really have no reason to believe that is not the case. I mean, raileigh was said to be stronger than all the rookies combined (shaky even used the same comparison, 100 times stronger) so wouldn't the case be roughly similar here? We are talking of people inherent a higher tier above.
The logic of a > b > c does not apply in all cases because different fighters are likely to use different strategies and fighting skills however it works perfectly well when we are talking about people who rely of perfectly measurable things. Luffy, lucci and hodi are straight up fighters who rely on speed, strength and stamina. Speed, strength and stamina are absolute terms, if A is greater than b and be is greater than c there is no absolutely no way in hell c can be greater than A in those aspects. Lucci in fact does not have the sheer strength to take down a pacifista. Hodi in fact possesses immensely superior resistance to a pacifista. Luffy's attacks in fact can take down a pacifista more than easily while they cannot in fact take down hodi. The math here is in fact against lucci, I don't see how that can't possibly be the case.
More so, I am not trying to point out lucci's weakness but rather just how gargantuan luffy's growth is, I am trying to show how much difference there is between his current tier and the one from before the timeskip. From what you are writing, my impression is that you are grossly overestimating lucci while at the same time grossly underestimating the entire tier in which luffy is at. We saw luffy before the timeskip going up against people on a tier at which he is now and it was not once good for him. What happened when he fought sentoumaru? He got his ass handed to him easily, his gear two attack which was even able to land a hit on lucci was easily deflected. He went up against mihawk and he managed to dodge however it is quite clear mihawk was not really making an effort and attacking would have resulted in a mutilated arm. Nothing of what we have seen suggest hodi in the end is the powerless tank you make him out to be.... The reason hodi's attacks did not work was not because he had no offense, the reason they did not work was because luffy is in such an overwhelmingly higher tier than it barely makes sense.
Originally Posted by kkcklol guysOriginally Posted by BlackHair
this^Originally Posted by Schabrak
200 shigans? Don't think it's a problem for Lucci..plus..Hody is big,but not this big a 1cm hole*200 times = 2m diameter hole ..thats..kinda....ALOT dont you think?(for example Sanji is 177cm tall)Originally Posted by kkck
And it is good what RezzieThaRapper remember Crocodile,case it is clearly show what your logic guys are wrong. In every post you sayin "Luffy oneshoted pacifista!>Luffy insanely strong!>Luffy didnt oneshoted Hody!>Hody stronger then pacifista!>Pacifista almost oneshoted entire SH crew pretimeskipp>Luffy pretimeskipp defeated alot of peoples!>Hody insanely stronger then any opponent Luffy fought pretimeskipp."
Thats guys is wrong.
Crocodile was one of the first who was defeated by Luffy so that means hes a fodder now? No way. I told this already and i will say it again:you guys should stop comparing whom,when and how Luffy defeated and start to think about what Hody gonna do against Lucci and what Lucci gonna do against Hoddy.
If you atlast start to think in that direction,you will realise Hody have nothing to offer excapt being a meatball with teeths
You are right, we can't compare each fights and claim A is stronger than C, because C got defeated by B, who was defeated by A. In a fight there are several factors (defence, attack, haki, df etc) which determines the winner and the loser. As once Crocodile pointed out, while Mr3 was facing with his wax ability Magellas poison.
Anyway, my point in taking the Pacifista as a measurement was to determine the durability/tank ability of Hody and damage output of Lucci!
I took the factor defence of a PX and put it in comparison with Hodys. Every SH and all of their special moves was needed to take down one single PX. While after the skip Luffy took one down with a single punch. Do u get it? 2 Years ago all of the SHs best attacks equals now a single Gear 2 (with haki) punch of Luffy (well tbf Zoro wasn't in his best, so they might have been a bit stronger than a single post Jet-Pistol lols). Just to be clear, Im only talking about the factor damage output.
Therefore some simple equation:
- Hodys defence > PX defense!
- PX-4 > Enies Lobby Lucci
- Pre-SHs damage = Post-Luffy Gear 2 Jet Punch
- Shabondy SHs > Enies Lobby SHs (I won't comment on this, should be clear)
If you are still disagreeing with this facts (manga by Oda), you might as well stop reading beyond this point, since there is no meaning in continuing this discussion if u disagree. In case you agree, you will hopefully see that Enies Lobby Lucci can't harm Hody!
Even having that much speed EN Lucci could NEVER beat a PX on his own. After wasting all his energy in futile offensive skills on the opponents though defence and dodging all opponents attacks he will go down exhausted facing a PX, that definite. Basically means as the fights drags on, Lucci will lose his stamina (thus speed), and will be eventually get hit by a PX.
For several reasons I see a similar scenario happening with Hody. Hodys defence is tougher than that of a PX. Im not sure if his attacks are stronger, so I will leave it out. But regardless, eventually Lucci will dry out, then Hody will get him. But to begin with, I don't think Lucci is that much faster than Hody. But I can't prove otherwise, nether can you guys.
Yes Hodys skin can be pierced. Yes Lucci is a master of Rokushiki, congratulation. Lastly not sure what exactly u mean by durability, but Luccis DF gives him offensive strength boost as well as more speed in his special leopard form. But there is no hint that he can tank more or that his endurance is better.
Yet having this all, he can't harm Hody. Also you have NO PROVE saying that Hodys speed equals that of a turtle compared to Lucci. Since there is nothing to compare to.
Last edited by BlackHair; December 11, 2011 at 02:11 PM.
We are not saying hosi is stronger than a pacifista, the argument is that hodi is far more resistant than one. It is one specific attribute in which the guy has shown more resistance than a creature which was durable enough to take the entire strawhat crew. Whats lucci going to do? he is going to move around, he is going to attack and his attacks are going to prove infective simply because his strength and damage output are simply nowhere near post timeskip luffy. What is hodi going to do? Every time one of lucci's attacks fails to take him out he will be able to counter with his own. Lucci does not have the means to easily dodge hodi's water attacks (unless anyone wants to argue he is even mildly close to PTL with haki) and eventually bite his head off. That would even be a unlikely scenario where hodi cannot keep up with lucci's speed at all, any scenario where hodi can even somewhat keep up is far worst.
---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
As for where you would put all the wounds which lucci would need to cause for a hypothetical win, nothing could be simpler. Lucci can put them in the exact same place where WB had 267 blade wounds, one hundred and fifty two gun shots and forty six cannon balls.
In reality you just need to cut the artery at/under your arm pit to make sure that someone dies, but that's not so important is it? But I doubt Lucci would be so intelligent, as seen in the Ennies Lobby fight.
A adamantine meatball with probably the sharpest teeth in the whole OP universe?
edit: omg, it was a jokeXD, don't take it to seriously, I know how sturdy those crazy guys are.
Last edited by Schabrak; December 01, 2011 at 02:38 PM.
Lets make another comparison then. Wasn't it said that arlong was nothing compared to pre transformation hodi? Arlong is obviously nowhere near lucci's league however if we are talking about someone who in his basic form is already that much stronger than arlong then at least somewhat standing up to lucci would be plausible for a moment. Add in a transformation that enhances his physical power enough to make a weak low level attack have a mile long range and endurance to take a barrage of luffy's gear 2 and 3 attacks and you easily have someone who can take lucci's attacks. More so, lucci was indeed phased by luffy's gear second attacks while in turn hodi took significantly enhanced versions of those attacks and at large he was barely phased....
Originally Posted by BlackHairOh,okay i can see your point now...buut...Originally Posted by kkck
http://www.mangareader.net/103-58198...apter-601.htmlOriginally Posted by BlackHair
bottom,second panel from the right..this was not an ordinary punch it was haki imbuned jet pistol.
Okay now returning to fight agains Hody(to decide how much damage Luffy actualy case to him) For entire battle Hody recived 1 simmple leg attack,3 simple haki punch(not g2,so dont realy know how strong they are..i would like to say ~2 simpl haki punch=1 jetpistol haki punch) Some wierd underwater attack "red hawk"(wich is actualy used in g2+haki)*after wich happened this http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/645/4 don't realy understand what happened here,he eting new pills,or spitting already eaten?*
and in the end Hody was finished by g3+hakki attack(wich dont realy count case we dont know for how much it was overkill or not)
so to put it in overall:1 (g2 hjp)+1.5(g2 hjp*red hawk*)+0.5(g2 hgp)+finisher g3hakipunch=3+finisher....so in terms of Health Points Hody got healths like ~3(ok lets make it four so i would be in your favour guys) 4 PX's
Now,to another part
Originally Posted by BlackHairI perviously said about "in terms of Health Points" case this is exactly what i think we shall consider,case defense (atleast in my head) it's an...eeehm...ability to reduce incoming damage,while HealthPoints its an "stat" wich indicates how much damage is needed to bring you down, and in case with Hody it is exactly the matter of needed damage.Originally Posted by kkck
Okay,now returning to SH vs PX fight..PX got realy high def,but not that much of HP,so to simply damage an PX your atk must be more then their def,wich means SH's cant take out PX case they simply cant damage it case of its high def.Like a real tank under inches of steel there is pretty fragile mechanism,but to get to this mechanism you first need to be able to pierce trough this stiil and if you cant you simply outmatched.
Now returning to Hodys "tank abilitys" he got almost no defense but got huge amount of health....so my point is Lucci can damage him the question is in the amount of damage needed...and i also like this post
In the end of Hody vs Luffy,Luffy was about do die due to bloodloss cased by a single bite.Originally Posted by Schabrak
So bloodloss is still a magor factor in OPverse.
i hope you do realise WB was a deadman already afer 1/10 of those wounds and fight till the end to save as much of his childrens as he can,case there would be no way for him to come back.Originally Posted by kkck
I like how noone voted "Tie" D
Last edited by Shader; December 02, 2011 at 01:29 AM. Reason: p.p.s.
Let's draw a parallel between this fight and a possible fight between Rob Lucci and Crocodile:
-A MUCH weaker Luffy beat Crocodile earlier in the story
-The Luffy that fought Rob Lucci was MUCH stronger than the Luffy that beat Crocodile
-That stronger Luffy barely beat Rob Lucci
Going by some of the arguments presented in this thread: Rob Lucci should be able to easily beat Crocodile, right?
Styles make fights man
I'm not saying that Rob Lucci could beat Hodi, but some of the arguments in favor of Hodi are kinda funny.
Take this gem by kkck for example: "Add in a transformation that enhances his physical power enough to make a weak low level attack have a mile long range and endurance to take a barrage of luffy's gear 2 and 3 attacks and you easily have someone who can take lucci's attacks."
When did Hodi take a barrage of Luffy's Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd attacks? Show it to me, in the manga...
If my memory serves me correctly; it was one Gear 2nd attack (Red Hawk) and one Gear 3rd attack (Elephant Gun) and those two finished him completely.