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So since the Negima forum here is rather dead I thought I should make another thread in the hopes of reviving it.
Anyway Negi has gotten a LOT stronger since the last time his strength level was measured & added to the table & we also got to see the true powers of quite a bunch of characters, this is how I see the table strength now:
- Mage of the beginning ???
- Evangeline 17000 (She even beat the recent Negi, the thing that she has the most over Negi is her centuries of battle experiences)
- Negi 15000 (Well after his battle with Rakan I would say he was at 10000 but after that he trained twice to control his ME & even succeeded in doing so, he got some new spells like the synthesis of the spear+jovis & staff change Halbeirt of Lightning, he acquired a lot more battle experience, but what really made him leap to 15000 for me is gaining a physical strength surpassing Rakan's, enhanced physical endurance displayed by his ability to take a direct hit from Fate with just a tiny scratch on his face & finally the recently acquired combination of High Speed Regeneration & Immortality which is HUGE(without the immortality he would be like 12000)
- Nagi 12500(Let's be honest here, the only reason he was able to win against the Mage of the beginning is because his Master Filius Zect who is another powerful mage backed him up, from all the battles we've seen what makes him powerful is the fact that he posesses an enormous amount of Mana which allows him to spam his spells + he's good at hand-to-hand combat, as for him beating Eva we all saw how he tricked her)
- Rakan 12000(He himself claimed he was at this level)
- Fate 11500
- All the other Averruncus+Dynamis 6000/7000(We all saw how easily Negi was able to deal with the Water & Fire variation)
- Kurt/Takamichi 6000 (I refuse to give Takamichi more than this, all he has are 2/3 things he keeps on using over & over again)
- Mana (For me she always been the stronger girl in C-3A after Eva)
- Kojiro 5500 (He's definitely strong right now, especially after acquiring that new beast mode)
- Eishun, Albireo 8000
- Kaede 4500 (Ninjas techniques etc can't get you more than this)
- Setsuna 4500(She beat Tsukyumi even with that demon blade)
- Tsukyumi 4000
- Asuna 3000 (Let's be honest here, all Asuna has is her inborn ability & a bit of hand-to-hand combat proficiency, she's not really as strong as she may look it's just that the author makes her appear when her ability is useful the most, & we saw in the NegiAsuna vs Eva battle how Negi was just using her as an artifact to block spells not as an ally who can fight alongside him)
- Ku Fei 2500
So what about you guys, what is your table of strength ?
Im not so sure I agree with Negi being stronger than Nagi. ofc, the fact that Negi is partially immortal is a big plus, but look at it like this:
the fight between Negi and Eva (before Asuna barged in) was about to end in the latter's victory. you can argue that Eva IS immortal (completely, at that), but Negi wasnt shown landing a single blow warranting she made use of that particular ability, whereas u do see Negi taking a serious hit from Eva. my point is that even if Negi IS immortal, he CAN be overpowered. Assuming a strong enough opponent (Eva, for example), even if he isnt killed by the end of the fight, he could still run out of Mana/Stamina
also, Al did say that none of the present could be able to completely beat him. to me, that just means that even if they do manage to overpower him, he just wont die.
another thing Im fairly convinced of is that Nagi is stronger than Eva. cant really provide solid evidence of this tho, other than Nagi being able to curse her and Eva being surprised at the sheer amount of Mana he used when doing so (for those who dont remember what im talking about, here)
well, thats my 2 cents
The reason we didn't see Evangeline taking any hit that would require her to use her high speed regeneration was because we only saw a glimse of their fight & we were already aware of the fact that she posesses such a power, in the other hand the author displayed that part where Negi got slashed just so we can see him healing himself trough his new found powers.
As for what Al said, he was just pointing out that beating Negi completely isn't possible from now on, he wasn't implying that he or anyone else in the group can beat him, we all know that the strongest member they have after Nagi is Rakan, he was barely able to draw in a fight with Negi last time even if he was going easy on him in the beginning, it's clear that the current Negi is far stronger than Rakan(After their fight he gained, enhanced endurance, enhanced physical strength, immortality, high speed regeneration, more spells, better control over his lightning form & he won't waste time going into RT1, more battle experience).
If Rakan himself can't beat Negi then Al & the junior members of the Crimson Wing can't either, at least not one on one.
I also refuse to believe that Nagi is stronger than the current Negi, at least from what we've seen so far in term of abilities Negi has an enormous advantage, Nagi only posessed a number of 7 very powerful spells that he used in a smart way as well as a good hand-to-hand combat abilities, Negi makes his father look like a normal mage seeing how many spells he has in his arsenal & powerful ones at that, he is also a very good hand-to-hand combattant after his training with Ku + the experience he gained from using these skills in real battles.
Like I said before, Nagi was only battle to curse Eva because he researched & exploited her weakness to water, we all saw how the events happened in her dream, you can't possibly consider what he did "beating Evangeline", & the fact that Eva was surprised at the amount of Mana he was releasing doesn't really mean anything except that he was overdoing it, meaning he didn't have to use that much mana to perform the spell.
then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Let's see. Starting with what Al said. this is from the original text in ch342
Kurt: まあ 今のネギ君を最強クラスたらしめている特性はあの技ではありません。
Al (in response to this): そうですねぇ 我々でも今の彼を倒しきれるかどうか。
I'll concede that he wasn't talking specifically about the group present. rather, he said that "the way he is now, even we couldn't completely defeat him." the emphasis was put on "completely", and it may not translate well into english but he is basicly implying that even if someone (you're right, not necessarily from Ala Rubra) could beat Negi, they wouldnt be able to finish him off.
As for Eva not being shown taking an injury, I understand what you mean and I believe you're right, but even so I don't think Negi was able to land such a decisive blow on her. Rakan's comment a few pages later supports my belief, too; that Negi is still "no match for Eva".
Now, regarding Negi's advantages over Nagi. you say that Negi knows a plethora of spells while Nagi knows only a few. The only spells I can think of that Nagi wouldn't have but Negi would are Ensis Exequiens (I think thats how u spell it. Sword of Conviction, 断罪の剣) and ofc his original spells (namely, Titanoktonon I and II) and if you would count these as well, his Magia Erebea Armationem. Of course, we have seen Negi use many spells that we haven't seen Nagi use (those valkyrie clones and Fulguriens Albicans, for example), but then again the main character is Negi; ofc we are gonna see more about him than anyone else. take Eva, for example: up until now, weve only seen her spam Nivis Casus, Ensis Exequiens and Malleus Aquillonis, and the occasional Freezing World, but that doesn't mean she doesnt know any other spells. True, Nagi himself said he only actually knows a couple spells, but thats where his handy notebook comes around ;D.
in terms of hand-to-hand combat, you cant say that Nagi is an amateur either. and even if he were, just like Eva said back in ch60, such things cease to matter after a certain point. and as for experience, Nagi has the upper hand. hands down. I mean, Nagi fought a war. a friggen war. saying that Negi has the advantage because of the amount of real battle experience is plain silly, I must say.
I think thats it for this post.
Jirachier define strength or this whole thing is useless, because you are not mentioning just strength
By strength i mean the overall fighting capabilities/abilities of an individual.
"Still no match for her" just means that Negi can't beat Evangeline yet, it doesn't imply that he couldn't land a hit on her, & if you think about it one of the reasons that most of the fight was skipped is so that we wouldn't see Evangeline getting hit because it will break her image of being sort of Invincile, the author wants her to always appear cool.
It's true that just because we've only seen a character use a few spells it doesn't mean that's all he can do however, in Nagi's case he himself stated that he can only perform 7 spells, literally seven & as for his notebook he doesn't use it to write down the other spells since he has none, he uses it to read off it the incantations of these said 7 spells(Yeah, he can't even memorize the incantations ._.)
I never meant to say that Negi has the advantage in term of hand-to-hand combat, I only meant the other areas(Physical Attributes such as strength, speed & endurance(he's no longer human now) + his spells arsenal).
I never said Negi couldn't land a hit on her, I just meant a decisive blow that would warrant use of her high-speed regeneration abilities. He does in fact land a blow on her in ch343. If you still say that he was able to land such a blow, then that blow must have been to either of her arms, because her clothes are not even dirty.
as for the number of spells thingy and the notebook, I guess neither of us can present proof to counter each other's statements. I would like, however, to point out that if he could only perform less spells than any self-respecting mage, he couldnt be called The Thousand Master (written as 千の呪文の男、lit: the man of a thousand spells). not saying he needs to know them all, but he must've been able to at least perform many different spells.
Yeah, he probably landed hits on the parts of her body where that aren't covered in clothes, as for Nagi & his numbers of spells I real am sure that I read that he only has a few spells & that the role of the notebook is to help memorize their incantantions, i just can't remember the chapters where this has been said.
Hmmm... I think that you guys are overestimating that "immortality".
When Eva got pierced by that stone spike in Kyoto, she said, she hates regenerating because it's tiring, so I'd guess that it has it's limits... it probably wouldn't work when mana/ki runs out, but of course that only means they won't regenerate, they probably wouldn't die... and if condition of body allows it and they regain some then I guess they will heal again... but that's only if proper steps weren't made... removing heart from body, severing head or such...
I think it's important to say that those numbers are supposed to be objective. If you poison the strongest warrior it doesn't make you stronger than him.
About Nagi and the thousand master business... I'm not sure right now if it was in manga or in one of those "not so accurate" anime series, but Kamo mentioned that he was called Thousand master, because he had 1000 contracts... which wouldn't really surprise me, well he got Arika in the end, but come on... he began his travels at around 9 and you've seen how girls react to Negi... (who has around 20 contracts after year of "sitting in classroom" and given his seriousness...) So I think it's not that strange to believe that easy-going Nagi would pop a contract every now and there in world with bit more "easygoing" morals (remember? slavery, gladiators)
If you were to say who would win... whether Nagi or Negi... I'd say, that if it were in some RPG, Negi would have higher stats, but Nagi would be stronger... something like when you use load of stat-rising potions on character just to find out that even with double stats it can't make same damage as another with lower stats but ten times higher character level... So I'd say Yes and No... Negi might be stronger, but if he fought Nagi seriously, Nagi would trash him while laughing at him...
I also have to disagree with Ku-Fei being ranked so low. She really powered up after coming to MW and got herself sweet artifact, and she's more honest with herself now (well... psychological state is important too) so even if she's probably not at the same level as Kaede or Setsuna, she's still around pretty high (compared to "ordinary" practitioners), at the same time I have to disagree with Asuna being higher than Ku is... Without kanka, Asuna wouldn't be in A class (if the chart is common for ki users and mages) so B or A-class swordsman would probably beat Asuna, if she wasn't using kanka, if she were, she might go as high as ... 2000 if I overestimate her, after all, it's the same as I mentioned before, If you boost amateur all you get is boosted amateur, and even boosted, amateur can't beat master... Asuna has "some" experience and little skill (at least if it comes to hand-to-hand combat), while Kuu has "more" experience and plenty of skill...
And I think that the distance between Eva and Negi is much greater... as you guys said, up till now she used just 4-5 or so spells... and she had time to spend 100 years to master techniques she didn't even need at the time... I'd say, she's still just playing around... not to mention, she still can use Magia Erebea... so she can practically double her strength... (If I remember she said she stopped using it, because, there was no one who could stand a chance even without it)
So if I were to review the ranking Jirachier drew up, I'd say it's more like
- Kotaro 5000-5500
- Kaede 5000-5500 Here I must note that you might be sorely mistaken, because Kaede has announced herself as Chuunin (at mahorasai) and we don't know how does her organization work, but you'd think that there would be some sort of promotion test, and that's kind of big thing for her, so it would be probably be mentioned, meaning, she most likely doesn't know any real high-level ninja techniques yet... she has few good new ones but those are mostly self-taught and styles used by Koga (i think) originate around the 16. century... so I'd say that after 400 years, clan of ninjas would have something more to offer than few self-taught or improvised skills...
- Setsuna 4000-4500
- Kurt/Takamichi 4000-5000
- Tsukyumi 3000 / 4000+
- Ku Fei 2500-3000
- Asuna 500-700 / 1000-2000
Last edited by deSolAxe; December 07, 2011 at 05:52 AM.
I've always believed that Nagi > Eva.
Right now, I'd put the hierarchy like this: Nagi > Eva > Negi > Al (I just believe in Al) > Rakan > Fate