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That is what amazes me about Cassandra, she was parrying Nina's Shadow Chaser/Hunter while also parrying Audrey and Rachel too.
forgive me for some abstractism.. just cant help but try to describe it more effectively - i think PYSA is close to 'root'/maternal/original claymore ability and still manage to be effective agaist such wide range of other techniques that it gives it great ratio - 'whats needed/what it can do' ratio or premise/capability ratio
i could say id
t differently, lets say each unique technique has some set of other techniques that it is effecient agianst, this set is subset of all techniques, what i ve bees saying till now is that PYSA has the set of techniques it is efficient against very wide certainly not equal to set of all techniques but definitely largest of all + to be efective user has to have the general capability which if he has then he is capable of going against almost every single technique out there
i hope someone here understands the idea of what i am saying(now im glad i was studying logic)
i partially agree that teresa doesnt have 'real' technique but if that is the case than any yoki sensing technique is not a technique, + are you saying PYSA is not technique? i think thats not the case yes yoki sensing is something that claymores have in common and each individual has different level of the technique, but i wouldnt go that far to say that teresa just has high-level basic claymore skill and therefore it is not a technique
that kinda goes to the question What is the difference between skill and technique?
insinctively id say
skill: = having experience
technique: skill that is distinguishable from others in short if someone has better yoki sensing than someone else, it is still yoki sensing, so they have the same abillity
PYSA - pin point yoki sensing isnt yoki sensing because but ITS SUBSET (same as all techniques that use yoki are in fact only types of one 'root' ability - using yoki) - pysa is TYPE of yoki sensing in my opinion it is abillity
if you say PYSA is not a technique than all yoki based techniques are one technique
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/skill : skill=technique
so does anyone agree with me or disagree, pease state you opinions im curious
for my own usage of "nomenclature-lexicon",
Ability 1 = anything = Arm Extension, PYSA, QS, NYSenA (Normal Yoki Sensing Ability), STR, AGI, SPD, RT, AQ, and etc
Ability 2 = anything (except Sword Techniques) = Arm Extension, PYSA, NYSenA (Normal Yoki Sensing Ability), STR, AGI, SPD, RT, AQ, and etc
Technique = Sword Technique = QS, PQS, WC, DS, SC or SH, and etc...
Skills = Sword Techniques and Abilities
(I should get some set standard for myself for these terms, lol. I need to clearly separate them from each other, as it's totall chaos right now, lol)
I have an old theory:
While as boringly "conventional" as Teresa+Priscilla+Irene+Sophia+Noel Battle was (excluding Irene's QS), that actually means they must have been incredibly powerful !!! Fancy Abilities and Sword Techniques are for the WEAK, the powerful don't need any fancy abilities or sword techniques, but that means they fight boringly "conventionally", and we mistakenly are unimpressed by them and wrongly think they're weaker compared to others of same rank, who fight more "excitingly" and "unconventionally" with fancy abilities and sword techniques.
In other words:
rank 3 Sophia and rank 4 Noel would PWN rank 3 Blind God Eye Galatea, rank 3 Audrey of the Gentle Sword, rank 4 Ophelia of the Rippling Sword, and Rachel of the Strong Sword, hehe Who said that the older Era Claymores are weaker than the newer? hehe.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 29, 2011 at 01:36 AM.
so HK says |techniques|+|abilities|=|skills|
if you dont know what |skills| means: X- some set, |X| - number of elements in this set |X|- cardinality of X
exampla: class that has 30 students in it, if a class woud be a set of students than |class|=30
i guess that is how ZERO PHOENIX percieves it too
but isnt ability something you can do? that would mean |techniques|+|skills|=|abilities|
but still i think skill and ability is rather synonymous
1 i understand you want to differentiate all abilities claymores have into those they can use naturaly and ones that can be learned as to using some tool i dont know how to do it (the names for the categories) but using ambiguous terms is not the right way
sorry for being smartass... i like clear distinctions so i try to have clear views->
-ability http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ability = something you can do so all techniques skills anything claymores can use
-skill http://www.thefreedictionary.com/skill = synonym for ability
-technique http://www.thefreedictionary.com/technique = method of doing something, this is interesting, because according to this technique alone is not what you can, do but how you can do it
in other words, when irene uses QS, she doesnt use quicksword - she is using quicksword method of using sword, in other words she has ability to use sword in certain way
this clearly implies that you CANT compare techniques among themselves however you want, because techniques can be methods of various skills, you can directly compare only tchniques that are of the same skill
sword techniques - methods of using sword quicksword, windcutter, etc
you have then methods of using yoki
yoki methids/techniques (not ones that do something with yoki ones that USE yoki) so if yoki sensing doesnt use yoki it isnt even yoki technique (if you define yoki technique as one that uses yoki of course)
so we can either make two categories of techniques that would be most simple and easy to orientate in
techniques that use tools:
sword techniques: for example what anastasia has etc
non-tool techniques: maybe there are even some that dont use yoki so i leave it at that...
if i wanted to be precise (what i want) then:
techniques that use tools: sword techniques, none-sword tool techniques
non-tool techniques: techniques using yoki, techniques not using yoki
to further support my explanation: |all techniques| is not equal |all abilities/skills| as skill can have more methods of doing it
there are skills/abilities
there are methods of using skills/techniques |sword T|+|non-sword T|+|yoki using T|+|other|=|techniques|
now i dont know if you agree or not i sticked to original meaning of words and for now i dont see better cathegorizing so im gonna stick to this one unless someone has better
if i should use it then i say
PYSA - yoki using technique (and it definitely should be technique as it is way of using yoki sensing ability)
non-tool techniques - are ones that stem from unique 'root'/original abilities only claymores have, every way of using claymore only non-tool ability is this type, it is their natural unique that differs them from humans therefore having greater than human strength is their ability and using it in some way means having some ability example would be Undine
i think i neatly covered every technique in claymore world
since i got rather off toppic i come back to original question my preffered techniques
of all: PYSA
sword based: quicksword
non-sword based: definitely Anastasia's
yoi using: now im not sure does PYSA use yoki?
non-tool non-yoki: it would be yoki suppression but recently i found out that it uses yoki so i dont know of any now
comparing all techniqeus is not in contradiction with what i said earlier->
(even though you cant compare all techniques on equal terms you still can compare those that doesnt originate from same ability if they have the same variable in common in this case - likabilility
but the most INTERESTING thing is that you cant compare STRENGTH/POWER of technique with all others so you cant compare whether quicksword is more powerfull than yoki sensing they arent based on the same idea and comparing them are useless
its the same as if you compare strength of spaceships(lasergiuns or something) with the strength of human they both have different units of measurement
this should be already clear to OOP programmers where its one of the most important aspect of object oriented programming (yes i like making analogies)
---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------
Last edited by spit; January 01, 2012 at 11:31 AM.
ya, I need to distinguish the words-terms better, as they do overlap, and thus have no distinctive meaning, causing confusion and chaos to you poor readers of my posts, lol.
here's a bit better organization, that you might be interested in:
(this is old however)
Originally Posted by HK
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 29, 2011 at 11:32 PM.
where does Anastasia's technique goes? into yoki using, physical T? it is true its still using your own body but still, imagine there is technique using some other weapon than sword what is that then?
more than 'sword using techniques' why not use 'tool using techniques'?
i think it is clear that differentiating techniques based on 'yoki use' and 'sword/tool use' is of the same importance therefore there are at least 4 categories necessary
tool + non yoki
non tool + yoki
non tool + non yoki
HK, you have 3 categories instead of my first two
why do you think such distinction is needed? can you explain your reasons? im curious
what is the difference between physical technique and yoki technique?
i guess for you yoki technique is pure yoki based techniques, that doesnt go beyond mental level/ is performed purely by ones yoki usage/manipulation without any external changes
that is good, BUT with this you seem to create two levels of abilities
1 realize you have abilities that 'require' yoki ability, according to this, these abilities use other abilities - yoki abilities which would mean there are
low level abilities (yoki abilities)
high level abilities (all other) meaning your 5 categories are not equal
2 even if you mean just that those abilities use YOKI itself, so they are based on yoki of the user and therefore all abilites are on the same level
the problem still remains
- you cant make YOKI USAGE the object of differentiating and then create own yoki category for abilities
- look, you have
sword techniques that use yoki and ones that dont
physical yoma techniques that use yoki and those that dont
your yoki category doesnt have clear distinction, you can label it as 'other' or 'mental' or whatever but in the end, the category will remain just one unique, without fitting distinction from others
in my theory
i use 2 questions to categorize technique to its corresponding category
(does it use tool? does it use yoki?)
in your theory you need 3 such questions
(does it use sword? does it use yoki? does it belong to yoki category?)
in other words i can map my categories into table (2-dimensional map) or matrix but this is impossible for your set of categories
im sure 99% of people now think im total idiot or something, i dont mind, i do this for my own entertainment (not picking on otheres! but argumenting)...
PS: the reason for my long post is because i enjoyed your reply so even though it is negative it is negative in positive light
Wow, so needlessly overcomplicated these last few posts have been. This is how I look at it.
There are two types of Claymore Techniques/abilities
1. Body manipulation techniques: These are abilities or techniques that require the user to manipulate their form to achieve an effect outside of the realms of a human body. The most basic form of this is standard Yoki Release. Techniques of this type do utilize yoki but depending on the nature of the technique do not always require excessive Yoki release to perform. In such a case the warriors physical prowess must be high enough to perform the technique at a basic level. This effect can be achieved by utilizing lesser or derivative technique's already learned by a warrior or may be innately possible in the technique itself or in body of the Claymore. MOST offensive types use these types of abilities, but not all.
2. Yoki Manipulation techniques: These are techniques and abilities that require the user to manipulate, sense or control the non physical yoma power known as Yoki. The most basic form of this variety is Yoki Suppression. Abilities of this type must meet the requirement of needing little to no physical prowess or resistance to achieve the desired effect. Focused regenerative techniques falls under this category of technique with rapid automatic regeneration as a claymore also being in this category. As before most Defensive types use these abilities but not all.
Really wordy but much easier to understand imo
Last edited by SaphG1; January 01, 2012 at 01:50 PM.
Anastasia's "Spider Web Hair" Ability:
#2 from my previous post's quote on my 5 categorization
-> Yoma Body (Physical) = her Yoma hair
-> Yoki Ability ("Magical" or "Force-Star Wars") = despite whatever Yoma hair can do physically (such as how Yoma arms can Extend), there has to be a "magical" component to it still, I would think, anyways - Maybe it is truly Yoma Body (physical) with no Yoki Ability, simple "Hair Extension", like Arm Extension, meh. I'd have to think harder on this, lol.
I think my previous post's quote explain itself, but I'll try to elaborate further or more clearly:
Yoki Ability = "Magical" or "Force (Star Wars)", "A special Work-Task or Ability done via Yoki itself, an independant Ability of its own". For Example: Galatea using her Yoki (Yoki Manipulation Ability, YMA) to control an opponent's physical body (moving Dauf's punching arms just slightly and causing his fist-fingers to open up-move). An actual Ability of Yoki (Not merely releasing-using Yoki), "Magical Effect or Enhancement" (not merely a physical change), with the Yoki as an Ability. Probably the best example is "Yoki Focusing Ability". This is it's own Ability, a Yoki Ability, which can also be used with the Physical Body for PA, or it also can be used with the claymore sword for QS. Or, maybe the same Ability (some argue-categorize the Yoki Burst Ability as a type of Yoki Focusing Ability), Yoki Burst Ability, which is it's own Ability, a Yoki Ability, but it can be used to presumably the legs, for a speed boost, kinda akin to putting a "rocket" on one's legs, and repeatedly turning it on and off, lol.
The Physical Abilities of the Yoma Body (With or With-Out Yoki Ability) = For Example, With: Miria's PS (she's using her Yoki Burst Ability, Yoki Ability - "Magical", with her physical Yoma body, her legs' running-speed). For Example, With-Out: Arm Extension.
Sword Techniques (With or With-Out Yoki Ability) = these qre unique, so they get their own category. Doing the QS, WC, DS, SC/SH, and etc *ARE* Abilities of "Swordsmanship", not just of the Physical Yoma Body itself. Or think of it this way: you got their own Physical Yoma Body, what they can do with it, and then you got an inorganic, weapon and swordsmanship, and what they can do with it. It's one thing to use your body, it's another thing to wield a sword. Body vs Tool-Weapon, are obviously two different things, both which stand alone as separate Abilities.
his categorization is basically the same as mine, except I add in the sub-categories ("with" or "without" Yoki Ability), as well as Sword Techniques
"1. Body Manipulation (SaphG)" -> "(1) physical Yoma body abilities, (Sub-Category 1) NOT requiring a Yoki Ability" and "(2) physical Yoma body abilities, (Sub-Category 2) REQUIRING a Yoki Ability" -HK
"2. Yoki Manipulation techniques (SaphG)" -> somewhat -> "(3) Yoki ("Magical" and "Stand Alone") Abilities" -HK
And, I (HK) have a 3rd Category, of:
Sword Techniques, with the Sub-Categories of "With" and "With-Out" Yoki Ability.
I have these Sub-Categories ("With" or "With-Out" Yoki Abilities)... because it does matter a lot... for quite a few things...
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 02, 2012 at 03:58 AM.
As i see it, I totally disagree on the sword techniques sub-catagory area because it's STILL a physical ability of the body. It would be like saying that Irene' or Clare are incapable of moving their arms itself at the high speed of the Quick sword unless they are holding a sword at the time. Or that Helen is incapable of twisting her arm in the manner of the drill sword or extending it unless she has the sword in hand at the time. Obviously this isn't the case, The sword may be the weapon that gives them the most destructive power when using the technique, but all these techniques are completely possible no matter what they are holding at the time, be it a sword, a mace, a dagger, or a blade of grass. So they are actually Yoma body manipulations that are utilize the claymore swords superiority as a weapon, not the other way around.
Last edited by SaphG1; January 02, 2012 at 01:10 PM. Reason: i'll disagree on the rest later, lunch time! ^^
I do clearly see your point, and agree with it, as yes, ultimately weapon skills are body skills. (Though for humor... would Jean's Drill Sword still be the Drill Sword, without her claymore sword? What, does Jean's hand spin around her elbow, slicing up everything to pieces? That would be funny, haha).
I just separate out Sword Techniques from Body Abilities, as the manga makes such distinction of them.
Also, there is a difference with Yoki attached to their own body vs Yoki attached to their claymore swords.
The Best example of this is Clare's PQS (Projected Quick Sword) or Nina's SC/SH (Shadow Chaser/Shadow Hunter).
Clearly these Abilities stick out as SWORD Abilities, SEPARATE from Body Abilities, as pray tell where's the "body part" involved with Clare's PQS or Nina's SC/SH ????
so... actually... I just shown that the Sword Technique and Yoma Body Abilities are two different things... contrary to the top of this post of agreeing with you.... lol.... and doh !!!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 02, 2012 at 04:51 PM.
I've already thought formed thoughts on those actually.
Odds are that a fully released arm as it is, is actually stretching and bending at high speed causing the projection effect. It may simply be that unlike Helen it requires Clare's arm to be fully released during the movement, in fact even though Clare's speed is somewhat inferior to Irene's we're still talking about a level of speed beyond visual perception, We have no idea what her fully awakened arm is doing or even looks like when she's utilizing the QS. No matter how you look at it, something has to change physically with her arm while using the quick sword, if if that change is only momentary, otherwise there would be severe muscle strain and bone breakage almost constantly, considering all the unnatural angles it moves at. I know we all want the QS to be pretty and clean as a technique but that doesn't mean it actually is.
Nina's Shadow chaser is a Yoki manipulation ability, it's really nothing more then allowing her body to follow after a particular energy signature and then setting your body to follow it in a manner similar to a Divining rod. The sword swinging part is not the Shadow Chaser/Hunter, the auto tracking of particular Yoma energies is the technique. In essence she is still capable of using the Shadow chaser without the need of holding a sword and likely without the need to move at all. It's a move that seems rather impressive at first but then you realize exactly why it belongs to a number nine Claymore. It has the benefit of always guiding you to the enemy but aside from that provides no actual force or destructive power outside of the realms of the physical body.
Hmm.. I never have thought of both the PQS (Clare's QS) and the SC/SH could be using Arm Extension... that's an interesting idea... as that works as an explanation of how both can reach their targets without moving-"stepping" closer, and/or around objects (in regards to PQS), lol.
However, I believe that the evidence given goes against this notion of Arm Extension (I'd have to research this though to verify or de-verify myself on this), and also... it's questionable whether Irene's Arm is in an Awakened state or not... as first of all, it's always covered by that leather armband, lol, and second of all, if we look to PA Clare... Irene's arm doesn't change at all, whereas small blades come out of it, as well as the rest of Irene's right side Awakening-changing too. Hence, then why does her arm not change... I feel that this points to Irene's arm, being "unable" to Awaken, fully-IMMUNE to Awakening... 100% YR into the arm and no Awakening of it, *grins*. If Irene could only do the same with the rest of her body... she could be somewhat as the "end game" like HA, lol.
-I am aware that Irene's Arm was initially (prior to Awakened Ophelia finishing Irene's Yoki Focusing lessons at the cost of her own life, lol) causing Clare to Awaken, but my explanation of this would be that while the 100% YR is causing the rest of Clare's body to Awaken, the Arm itself remains NON-Awakening...
or... maybe Irene's Arm is truly in an Awakened state, it's a "permanent" Awakened Arm, hence why it's always seen covered by the leather armband, lol.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 03, 2012 at 02:46 AM.
i just somehow lost my latest 'text wall' message stating my opinions on SaphG1's theory i WONT be writing it again...
here is VERY short summary
i like your theory SaphG1, for being simple and encompassing all techniques
but i dont like it because there are still differences between techniques that should be noted and your categories dont show them at all
sword techniques are ways of using sword and therefore even if you say they are result of physical ability and therefore dont need own category, they still need their subcategory unfortunately i dont think I could say (altough you are saying it) all sword techniques are subcategory of your BODY MANIPULATION TECHNIQUES
- 1 body manipulation seems to me to be appropriate for body manipulation (extending changing apparance etc) not moving (like when using sword (yes there are exceptions like (probably) QS))
- 2 i dont think using sword/tool ( talking about PURE sword techniques) is physical technique - its basics lies in using the sword not how you do that using
MY PROBLEM: if i try to make hierarchical subcategories with proper relations, it is no longer so neat and simple
Last edited by spit; January 03, 2012 at 06:37 PM.