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Thirdly, I don't see how it's baseless. Nagato literally has an instant kill in his soul absorption, not to mention all those other Rinnegan techniques. Simply landing a hand on Obito is not that hard, as pretty much every single one of his fights have shown. And fourth, I don't see how Nagato is "easily manipulated"? As mentioned, it was clearly shown he had his own reasons for gathering the Bijuus, and being converted by Naruto doesn't mean anything when nearly everyone's been on that road. Would you call Zabuza and Gaara "easily manipulated"?
That's not a betrayal. To our knowledge Nagato had no knowledge of obito's plans with the Bijuu. For it to be betrayal he would have had to have knowledge of Obito's plans, which as far we Know, he didn't. His betrayal, as mentioned in the manga, happened when he gave his life for Naruto and the leaf. Obito is the reason that Akatsuki ended up being the way it ultimately was because Yahiko was no longer there to call B.S on him. Nagato truly believed that his plans would have come to fruition. Which they would not have, as I've already stated. The fact that he truly believed that coupled with the fact that he knew nothing of his fodder status. Is why Obito is the mastermind in regard to the two of them. I never said Madara wasn't manipulating Obito. In between Nagato and Obito however.... The reason why it does in fact matter that he knew nothing of his ultimate purpose is due to the fact that Obito kept him under the illusion that his own goals did matter, which they did not. Obito requiring something of him and not getting it just shows how easily moldable Nagato is. Given all of his experiences and hardships he let himself be swayed by a 16-year-old boy.
You bring up his abilities like they actually matter.
- It is heavily implied that the only reason he got as proficient with the eyes as he did was do to Obito
- After years of preparation and precautions Konan was only able to learn the ins and outs of one technique. Obito had many more that no one knew anything about.
- Obito was aware Nagato's physical state
- Nagato is susceptible to genjutsu, or implied as such.
- You speak as if they would have actually come to blows, which is an assumption. Obito had been Manipulating him for years, why would that change? Even if it did change, and he miraculously started thinking for himself instead of coat tailing off the ideals of some and being under the foot of others. How are you so sure that it would've gotten him anywhere? Obito knew crucial thing in regard to Nagato the same cannot be said in the latters case.
I'm not sure how you can't see it. As mentioned, his own reasons for gathering the demons did not matter in the end. He believed them to, but they did not. I'm aware of what you're doing by bringing up Gaara and Zabuza. That's for a different discussion, however.
Last edited by KiSwordsman; May 08, 2013 at 04:15 PM.
- How was that implied when not only did the meeting with Obito happen years after his training with Jiraiya, but after he had summoned the Gedo Mazo at least twice?
- That one technique was the only one Obito regular used and the only one that would pose a problem in fighting him.
- Doesn't mean much, when his strongest techniques were still usable even in that state.
- Nagato went along with the "manipulation" because it served him too. The moment it didn't, there's no reason they wouldn't come to blows.
By that logic, Obito's reasons for gathering them didn't matter either, and it all falls back to Madara. The point remains that taking advantage of someone having a similar goal is not manipulation (especially when in the end you fail), it's simply using them, which is not the same. In that regard, Obito is quite skillful, as he has used even someone as smart as Itachi.
And Nagato has been a tool, even in the literal sense, for others on a constant basis, Under the belief of divinity. Even before his divine mindset, his own goals stemmed from Yahiko's. He never once was his own person. Even if Obito has been out maneuvered or outsmarted as you say, how is there less of a reason to believe that it would have been different in this case when it had been exactly that for years regarding this individual? You're giving Nagato credit for what others have done at best. How would Obito not know of Nagato plans when he is the one that practically started the Organization as it was? That doesn't change facts here. The fact of the matter is Nagato, having far more experience and hardships than Naruto, let his entire belief system be changed by him. As the story progressed, we learned that Naruto's "savior" status isn't the only thing that allowed him to change Nagato. Turns out Nagato had been a tool for practically all his life. I understand why the conversation came to where it was. However, giving Nagato credit over Obito given all we know in regard to the former's character, at least in that regard just comes across as character bashing.
- His training with Jiraiya doesn't matter considering the fact that he only started using the Rinnegan standards after he met Obito. I'm not exactly sure how the summoning of Gedo Mezo has weight on his proficiency with said standard jutsu.
- Entirely your own opinion.
- When your Opponent has the ability to literally teleport to where you are, being in a less than adequate physical state to deal with him should he decide to appear in front of you, I'd say, would be cause for worry.
- Versus Jiraiya, even if it was auditory, instead of ocular he has shown that he is susceptible to it.
- Yes, "went along," because Nagato hasn't shown that he is easily moldable.
Obito Never had plans separate from Madara, so that's moot. If anything, that would be happening very recently because he just said that he might become the ten tails Jinchuriki. My whole thing is Nagato can't be given points where points are not deserved. Especially where Obito is concerned because it just comes across as character bashing. It's like the people that say Obito only beat Konan because of Izanagi, completely ignoring the circumstances of said situation in favor of bashing Obito.
Last edited by KiSwordsman; May 13, 2013 at 02:35 PM.
How? Because when conducting his own plans, Obito sucks at bring them about. And because Konan, who's far weaker then Nagato, came considerably close to defeating him. How would starting the organization inform Obito of what Nagato truly intended to do? At best, all he would know is the cover story about using the Bijuus to start wars. Nearly every character changed by Naruto has been in the same situation, Nagato is hardly unique there. And a tool? Perhaps. The argument isn't that Nagato was used, which has been acknowledged, it was that he got manipulated. Nagato seem very much aware that Obito intended to used him.
- The summoning of the Gedo Mazo is a Rinnegan ability, one which he had used at least twice before joining with Obito. There's nothing to suggest that Nagato hadn't been using the Rinnegan abilities before joining with Obito. At the very least, he clearly knew several of the abilities before that.
- How is it an opinion when that's what's been shown. Up until the most recent battle, all Obito used in battle was Kamui and in order to do any damage to him, all his opponents had to figure out a way around it. even in the current battle, he's still using Kamui the most. He has other techniques true, but he doesn't tend to use them beyond an occasion or two.
- Being able to not just sense where said opponent is near, but still capable of skill combat even in a weaken state, doesn't leave much to worry.
- Ah, right.
- Who has molded him? Obito didn't mold Nagato into anything and Naruto merely changed him back to his self before Yahiko's death.
Found this on Google and I just had to post it :
Show me a fight where Itachi fought without Sharingan. He beat Kakashi with Tsukuyomi, used Sharingan genjutsu on Deidara, and even started out fighting Kurenai with Sharingan.
I'm talking about what we've seen, not what we haven't seen in the manga.
This is not a manga about Itachi. He is not the main character and not even one of the main cast. But Kishi showed (manga) and told (manga + databook) us enough feats of Itachi, which he would still have without the Sharingan.
Besides, Itachi pushed back Kakashi rather easily with his sheer combat speed, lol. What he did before Tsukuyomi was all not Sharingan related. Tsukuyomi was just the quick finisher. He had the upper hand against two Jounins even before Tsukuyomi.