Instead of using hyperboles in a attempt to humilate certain users[I can't see it as anything else], show people refusing to go into a real argument. Isn't the main argument of the anti-Minato party converging to: Minato isn't shown using offensive high tier technques, therefore he isn't capable to.
Don't argue with a fallacy of false cause please. You are also generalizing Minato fans[most? who, name a few], making bet's on them, saying they have double standards, sounds degrading to me.
I've only gone through a couple of pages of that week or two or three :P week old discussion about the cost for Naruto vs Sasuke, but do you really want to restart it? Aren't the positions clear within the cicle of those dicussing it? My personal opinion: Naruto's risk was more devastating, while Sasuke's suffering lead to a ninja in even more perfect condition as it. In the end both reached their goal, it's up to Kishi to suprise us someone really suffering something they can't recover from.
What high tier tech do you want to see? Mass murder fusen not teleportation jutsu? People forget that he is the one who had invented the Rasengan and that he couldn't even live through his prime unlike Madara and co, to have more moments of awesomeness.
Can you give an example of the last pages where somebody follows this example?
"Ironically, if characters that saw Minato in action say a random character was faster than Minato, Minato supporters would refuse to accept it and say they need to see them running side by side or something."
Last edited by Schabrak; February 26, 2012 at 03:17 AM. Reason: end -> edit :D
I'm not trying to humiliate anyone, I'm just pointing out what's been shown. I don't see how it's hyperbole either, from what I've read from others.
Maybe he's capable of doing so, but he hasn't shown anything that's high-tier. Naming any such jutsu is just making up facts for now, like Sasuke having the items given to him by Itachi. Either way, both sides have arguments that can be debated against, like Minato bein able to hurt Raikage with his kunai or him not beating Tobi. My point is, it's annoying and foolish to claim Minato can do this or that without proof to back it up. I actually like Minato, but the hype he gets is annoying and makes him so overrated.
The technique is a lot trickier than just a straight forward look out for the tags. You've got to know where they are and when he plants them. Plus, it's a time/space technique. If Madara gets tagged, it doesn't matter if he is inside sussanoo encased in a chibaku tensei.....Minato is going to be on top of him. But I guess if he has Sussanoo up the whole time, all Minato could do would be try and lure him to a tagged spot or tag sussanoo and send his katon and magatama attacks back at it like he warped that bijuudama.
Man, If he could actually use Kage bunshin, it would be a pure nightmare trying to deal with him.
SephirothMadara has the three most powerful KG we've seen in the manga and ,with the rinnegan, I'm assuming all elements plus summon meteors. I think he should be able to kill anybody. But I'd wager Minato still wouldn't be easy for him. And that's saying a lot....though I could change my tune as he continues to reveal more and more powers. I'm sure he was just playing around with the Kages up till now. which is sad to me.
I hope Kishi lets Madara break free. I'm so curious as to how Kishi might engineer his defeat 'cause the guy is absurd.
Originally Posted by Smokes
Except all of those instances still relied on him using Hiraishin. You claim there's more to him than just Hiraishin's speed, but then you bring up instances where he defeated someone with... Hiraishin. Yeah he used it in a smart way, but the pure speed of the technique guarantees strategy never deviates from "wait until my tag/kunai is near them. Teleport. Win." Yes he's a genius, but when a genius has a jutsu that powerful/hax/cheap it underminds their intelligence because they don't really have to work for their victories as hard as some would want, to give that genius intellect a chance to show itself. Look at the gripes about Sasuke's fights if you don't believe me.
Originally Posted by Smokes
No... no he isn't. You've never seen Minato teleport into solid matter, and you won't, or else he'd die the instant he fuses his molecules with the molecules he just smooshed with. He can't teleport inside of solid matter. Not until it's shown or at the very least implied. Around and near it sure. But inside? Not proven. So no sneaking inside of Susanoo.
Naruto himself, Jiraiya, Minato, even Bee.
Minato is loved so much because the author made him possibly the coolest character in the manga, with the cape, the speed, the style, the S/T jutsus, the Fuuinjutsu he used, the fact that, everytime he was displayed, he always, always came on top.
He sacrificed his life for the good of the village and his son and was an ispiration to all.
Very much like Itachi, that sacrificed everything in his life for the greater good, and is a badass to boot.
Why Yondaime fanboys believes him to be nearly invincible? Same reason why Sasuke fans believe so, Naruto fans believe so etc.
Based on their likes, ppl struggle to find a way for the guy to win. I read Sasuke fans, just to disprove your example, that said, in a Sasuke vs Naruto topic "1000 clones plus giant summons aren't a problem, he would destroy those clone while genjutsu in an istant those giant summons with just a glance".
Its the way debate is, unless one doesn't like anyone or likes everybody equally, he can't help to be even a little biased towards his favorite character. I don't find it irritating, I believe it to be normal.
Regarding the tags, and how Yondaime is crap withouth them, I find it amusing:
ninjas, in the narutoverse, are always based on a single ability ( unless you are Orochimaru or Jiraiya ), without it they wouldn't be as strong; without the Sharingan, Sasuke wouldn't have survived any battle that he find himself into ( except that Yoroi guy, back in the days), almost the same for Naruto and Kyuubi, same for Itachi, or Nagato, or even Madara.
One can say "if guy wouldn't had that ability, he would be fodder", and it would be true ( in most cases ), yet one wouldn't talk about that guy anymore, but a fictional character, not the one in the manga.
And Naruto screwed up, in part 1, against Haku, but still against Nagato he was the dumbest thing ever saw in a manga, I somehow believe Kishi has a sick pleasure in drawing Naruto as a dumb idiot, I mean it was funny when he cried for Yagura, and Kyuubi burned him when he reminded him that he kissed Sasuke, but how in the world a normal human being would believe that a piramid of sand would be anyone's body?
Well, I didn't mean that he'd warp into solid matter. what I was getting at was even if Madara was in sussanoo and surrounded himself in a chibaku tensei shell, if he was tagged, Minato could still summon himself to that tag. It looks to me like there is space in sussanoo for the operator.
And you missed my whole point. It wasn't that Minato was unstoppable without Hiraishin. It was that the technique creates tons of problems. And not just speed. Like I wrote, he can also warp attacks like the bijuudama to places he has tagged. Plus, again I point out, it's not just the kunai. He could leave that tag anywhere in the blink of an eye. The battlefield becomes more and more his the longer the fight goes on.
I don't really know what to say about him looking less like a genius because he's hax. I still thought his fights were clever. Tobi should have realized he was boned early on and tried genjutsu. Nobody beats Uchihas in genjutsu.....but then again, Tobi is a moron.
Originally Posted by Smokes
Susanoo is chakra condenced into a solid form, hence the reason I brought up Minato teleporting into matter. If he can't teleport into a solid stone or solid wood then he can't teleport into solid chakra. As for room inside the Susanoo for another person, I think the user has to do something to allow that somehow (like when Itachi was reaching for Sasuke's eyes). Since the chakra is steadily flowing out of their body. Compare it to Minato teleporting up the top of a waterfall and still getting shoved back down by the current.
I didn't say that you said he was unstoppable without Hiraishin. It looked to me that you were implying he wasn't a one-trick-pony though. I was just bringing attention to the fact that there's supposedly more to him than Hiraishin, and your proof in favor of that was, again, how he uses Hiraishin. And I know it's not just the kunai, that's why I usually try to say Hiraishin in general. From the seal he places on a person, to the tag on his special kunai, both are ways of using Hiraishin.Quote:
Ofcourse they were clever. But just like Naruto and his clones, it's nothing that's gonna make anyone think that "genius" strategy extends further than what was shown. Seeing Naruto trick someone with a clone isn't enough to consider him a battle genius, despite what everyone says. Ditto with Minato and Hirashin, Sasuke and Susanoo, and alot of other ninja with jutsu that are so powerful no particular gameplan is needed during their use. Naruto's praised as a genius for using KB the way literally everyone uses it (when he started using it right that is), and Minato's praised for cleverly using Hiraishin, a jutsu so broken that pretty much any way you use it guarantees you a win. There isn't alot shown here to make someone think there was more to him than Hiraishin that could be worthy of the title "greatest Hokage".
And since he's currently being compared to Shodaime and Madara, we're going on what he's shown, and there's only a few things that he has shown. Normally you don't rely on pure strength, jutsu amount, and stamina when trying to guage a ninja's worth, but since right now we're directly comparing the 3 to see who was the strongest that becomes a big factor.
furthermore,as hell minato wasn't said to be faster than A,both of them confirmed that! and A never speedblitzed tobi,since he attacked tobi but tobi became intangible in the very moment A would have touched him,and then turned material again. the proof is that sasuke,who was carried by tobi,would have fallen if tobi had stayed intangible for more than an istant,but he didn't. then Minato > tobi > A,for what concerns speed. and c'mon: minato was said to be the fastest of ever,they would have referred to hashirama or madara if it they had been faster than him.
Not sure if this has been posted but I thought it was cool.
Madara Uchiha + Kyuubi vs Shodaime Hashirama Senju HD
OAV from Naruto Shippuden Storm Generations on Xbox360 and PS3
What I found interesting was that Hashirama uses a mokuton barrier to deflect a bijuudama.
Oh and it also seems that Madara's special EMS technique is the ability to reverse time for a few seconds.
Last edited by SupremeMod; February 26, 2012 at 06:26 PM.
great video! I didn't watch it cause I don't usually watch animes,but now I've just watched it. although we can't consider it as reality(since it didn't appear and wasn't confirmed in the manga),it's cool to assume it. so hashirama defeated both madara and Kurama,without Mito. I hope we will see this fight in the manga as well.
I know Sasuke's special ability...
Last edited by SupremeMod; February 26, 2012 at 09:03 PM.
Actually, B was poised to assassinate Minato as well. He managed to get kunai in place when Minato was behind him, though I'm not sure when. He was able to react to Minato's Hiraishin.
Which includes looking out for the tags. Unless Minato makes a lot of tags, it's not as hard. He focuses more on tagging the enemy, although it's only Raikage who would actually have a chance at preventing that.Quote:
Sasuke did take out multiple bunshins on the rooftop of the hospital before, and he took out lots of fodder while training (translation said about 1000). History has shown us that Naruto's clones have been easily beaten, at least in a group. Plus, summons haven't shown to be immune to genjutsu - Kyuubi's a good example.Quote:
There's a difference between saying Sasuke will take out Naruto bunshins and saying Sasuke will speedblitz Minato, though.
Never said Minato was crap without Hiraishin. This is the problem - fans think you're badmouthing the character or think you're insulting the character when you're just pointing out something that doesn't make them look good. It's pretty much obvious Minato's a great shinobi regardless of Hiraishin, he's proved that already.Quote:
Almost? It's definitely the same for Naruto, he wouldn't have survived most of his battles if it weren't for Kyuubi. However, that's not his ability, and the Kyuubi would have been useless if Naruto gave up. That's one of the things I dislike about anyone who says anything against Naruto: Kyuubi wouldn't have helped Naruto against Neji if Naruto just gave up instead of refusing to back down. People are far too biased than they should be.
Understandable as he was still new. It was his first fight too, if I recall, he'd make mistakes like that. But against Nagato, no excuse, not when we've seen Naruto be brilliant. I think Kishi does get such pleasure, that'd explain why he continues to make Naruto look like an idiot. -_- Socially idiotic, I can understand. Idiotic in life stuff, I can't.Quote: