Now, Itachi's skill with deduction is probably unmatched, and his physical skills speak for themselves. Saying that, he would lack killing power for the upper echelon ninja like Orochimaru, Raikage, Jiraiya, etc if he lost the Sharigan. Also keep in mind, his ability to pick people apart and figure out their jutsu and strategy is partially a bi-product of his Sharigan.
All three of them were screwing around, but still, Itachi was showed to be pretty good in taijutsu.
And he didn't show only a jutsu, he showed that suiton thingy, same Katons Sasuke used apart the dragons, a proficency with both Crow Bushins and Kage bushins ( with explosions too! ), incredible kunai work and immense analytical skills.
Itachi was a pimp, right behind fucking Danzou
Hell crazy people always showed their true colors early in this manga ( Gaara, Orochimaru, Sasuke ) so why give him Rin'negan?
To hell with it, die with your powers and leave nothing to your sons, so they will learn to stand on their own two feets
Sharingan Genjutsu = unbreakable, this is manga logic, sadly.Quote:
At least Uchiha haters can gloat about the fact that Tayuya > their favourite Uchiha in genjutsu usage
Yeah well, even if he made me awesome I too would give him one, just to, you know, feel better with myself.Quote:
Instead of all that sappy things, I would've asked him to teach me Hiraishin, screw manga characterization, that jutsu is too useful.
Imho they are on a beach, enjoying life while their comrades fight to the death, and at the end they'll swoop in and end Edo Madara, taking all the credit.
My thoughts exactly, I can't add a thing good sirQuote:
It still takes good amounts of capacity to pull off what Naruto did, he didn't simply dodge, he made a strategy, runned at him, waited, dodged and striked at the same time.Quote:
It was pretty damn cool if you ask me.
As a ninja I agree, Jiraiya is still best, but Naruto made Sage Mode his own, just like every few things he learns:
Naruto's Sage Mode is insane, he could perfectly sense the whole battlefield, his strenght is on Tsunade's level and his ninjutsu is deadly in power and range, overpower Kyuubi is no easy feat, expecially if you don't have haxed innate abilities.
Even before being helped by Kushina Naruto had the upper hand, it got worse because he was trying to absorb Kyuubi's chakra:
it that was a match, instead of pulling chakra Naruto would've followed with a FRS to the face.
I doubt Susano'o Arrows > A's speed, hell Danzou could react to them just fine.
I dunno, if Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't follow Bee's swords I doubt a Sharingan-less Itachi could do it.Quote:
And he doesn't have phoenix downs to revive his ass
It was done by Uchihas.Quote:
My statement stands
Fugaku himself implied it, and Sasuke flat out said it.Quote:
Mikoto too said pretty much that Itachi was an anomaly in the clan, with just how much raw talent he had.
I think the older son had the eyes years before Rikudou Sennin passed away. Maybe the genetic mutation Rikudou Sennin had enabled the elder son to inherit the Rinnegan and younger to inherit the body.Quote:
In the manga, yes. In the flashbacks, it was different. Gaara was a good kid who cared about others. Sasuke was teh same. Orochimaru... well, he didn't really show his creepy, sadistic side when talking to Hiruzen about white snakes. Most characters' flashbacks showed them as good, despite their early appearance. Hell, even Sasuke turned more positive the more time he spent with Team 7, even relying on Naruto at one point to help out.
Only applies for Itachi's Tsukuyomi when he controls time and probably Madara's genjutsu. Oh, and I think Kakashi's as well. Otherwise we saw Sharingan genjutsu and even MS genjutsu broken by Bee, Danzou, Sasuke, and few others. Orochimaru was also able to make an attempt to break out until Itachi cut his hand off.Quote:
Don't think Hiraishin would be easy to teach in someone's mind when the teacher himself has limited chakra.Quote:
With an attack that's equal to the power of all nine bijuu. And then Madara will say "so there is someone who rivals Hashirama in power. But you don't have his charisma!"
Sasuke, Itachi, or Kakashi could do the same. Maybe Jiraiya as well. Minato definitely could. I don't find that as impressive, but I'm probably being unfair comparing it to Naruto's past feats, which have been pretty good.Quote:
Only way he did was by shortening the time it takes to get into Sage Mode. Otherwise he's done everything that a perfect Sage Mode user should be able to do. Though, he's given FRS a new power. FRS can be used in two ways now, or probably three ways: base mode, Sage Mode, and Kyuubi Chakra mode.
Dunno about his strength bein on Tsunade's level, but I agree with the rest. I don't think anyone short of Madara and Hashirama could do what Naruto did to the Kyuubi. And now I remember an example of him having Tsunade's strength. :P He was able to toss Kyuubi by holding its claw.
would be interesting to see them fight out of Naruto's mind. I get the feeling Naruto wasn't able to go at his best, like Killerbee, because he was trying to protect his mind.Quote:
Wasn't there enough distance between Danzou and Susano'o? Though, I'd agree with that too, considering what kind of reflexes A has shown and his speed.Quote:
He was keeping up for the most part until Bee threw his swords, no?Quote:
Oh. Honestly, I don't take statements as facts unless it can be proven or not contradicted.Quote:
Isn't Sasuke an Uchiha? Didn't Sasuke said "all your jutsu are worthless in front of these eyes" ? Same with Tobi ( who praised Sasuke's Sharingan ) and Bee ( who praised Sasuke since he was able to use Amaterasu which, again, is a Sharingan jutsu.
Don't go there, Sasuke's superior intelligence doesn't exist, read the last chapters, he understood that ending Edo Tensei would meant that Itachi would disappear too after something like 10 chapters, a whole pursuit of Itachi and the whole Kabuto fight.Quote:
Being smart and being intelligent are two different things, Sasuke is the antithesis of intelligence, since he is ( was? ) driven by hate and emotions and did pretty moronic things.
If you consider Sasuke intelligent, then you'll have to consider Naruto (!) intelligent, because they do ( did ) the same thing:
outsmarting their opponents
Linear movements are easier to see for the Sharingan and therefore easier to dodge, that is a manga truth ( again, reread back then the Gaara vs Sasuke fight in the forest ), or what, Bee is slower with his cloak than without it?Quote:
Why then he schooled Sasuke without his cloak?
And Danzou was an 80 years old, regardless of Hashirama cells ( that he didn't have in his body, only on his arm and only for Izanagi ) and a covered Sharingan that couldn't see a thing since, well, it was covered and deactivated.
Sasuke used Susano'o because it was the only thing he could do, don't twist the fight so Sasuke had many, comfortable options:
he got physical, he was saved by hate, otherwise Danzou would've chopped his neck, or Tobi would've saved him again.
Again Sasuke isn't shit, but he isn't Rikudou Sennin either.
And then, based on their inclination, chose the "Body" one
I was joking lol.Quote:
Of course he couldn't know that his son would turn out a bitter immature boy, it happened after his death after all.
Sasuke and Danzou have Sharingans, and as Itachi said you can't put a Sharingan user in a genjutsu with another Sharingan.
Perfect Jinchuuriki are immune to genjutsus, according to Bee
Maybe not teach straight out, but say where to look, how he developed it, something like that.Quote:
Hell write the shiki, the formula, so Naruto could see for himself.
Dem fodder ninjas
Well of course it wasn't all that impressive, but considering that was a clone, it was pretty good overall.Quote:
Not completely true, Kabuto didn't show Naruto's strenght with Sage Mode for example.
And also blasted away a giant rhyno up in the air with nothing but physical strenght. Frog Fu is even better, since it can hit without physically hitting someone
Would be cool, even though I doubt Naruto held back, the Chou Oodama Rasentarengan ( or whatever it was called, the one with 100 KB in Sage Mode + Oodara Rasengans ) seems ultra distructive to me.Quote:
Considering Sasuke uses the arrows in mid to long range, it will always be a certain distance. On close range he uses the sword
Bee was joking around, even when they triple-teamed him he didn't substain any damage whatsoever.Quote:
I can't consider someone keeping up when, despite a Sharingan, he was outclassed that badly, even without the chakra cloak
Well hype exists so mangakas wouldn't waste time drawing panels no one would care about ( frankly I doubt the casual reader even remembers who Fugaku is ), and unless it is disproven ( like the Hiruzen one ) it is pretty much proof imhoQuote:
Joking? What's that?Quote:
I think he did know that or had an inkling, which is why he chose the younger brother. Considering what RIkudou Sennin accomplished, it's hard to believe he didn't foresee his older son being a jealous jerkoff and attacking the younger son.
Hmm, maybe he created them or gave them power as a tool against the bijuu or Juubi should they ever come back? As far as I know, most descendants were blessed with some part of the respective brothers' power, if not every power. Like, some Uchiha had Sharingan, but majority had the chakra while majority of the Senju had the body, if not the strength of chakra or something.
We saw Danzou and Sasuke be put in Sharingan by Sasuke and Itachi. Itachi was also put in a genjutsu by Kurenai, and Kakashi's clone got genjutsu'd as well. Despite what Itachi said, we saw instances of Sharingan users being hit with a genjutsu by another Sharingan. I think Itachi meant keeping a Sharingan user in genjutsu, as Itachi, Danzou, and Sasuke managed to break out genjutsu or reverse it on their caster, though I"m not sure about Danzou doing it with Sharingan. Sharingan just enhances ability to cast and break out of genjutsu.Quote:
Same person who got put in Sasuke's and Itachi's genjutsu. Honestly, I don't think we should believe statements as they can be contradicted. If perfect jinchuuriki were immune to genjutsu, Bee would not have been hit with Sasuke's MS genjutsu or Itachi's genjutsu. We have seen that the bijuu either help break them out of it or let them know they're in a genjutsu, though. Had Sasuke gone for a follow-up attack, Bee probably wouldn't have been able to lariat the confusion out of Sasuke. No one has been immune to genjutsu so far.
Can't see that happening either die to Minato running out of chakra. If the Kyuubi was freed, then Naruto can't learn Hiraishin.Quote:
Guess so, but Naruto didn't really need much, just chakra.Quote:
Wasn't that SM rasengan? hat is frog fu's range anyway?
It was aimed at the Kyuubi though. Plus, it's much different than what Bee would have done, apparently. He said he couldn't go all out because he was in Naruto's mind. Though I admit I"m not sure if it's to avoid hurting Naruto or because his power is actually limited in someone's midn.Quote:
Downside to the super duper fast arrows: anyone with speed can dodge it, whether it's Kakashi kind or Raikage kind. Naruto and Sasuke keep getting drawbacks or convenient Forget-Jutsu no Jutsu.
If Naruto still used Uzumaki Naruto Rendan, he'd have probably done better against Pain or Nagato. Although taijutsu is part of either version's strength, the Hungry Ghost is useless if it's not holding Naruto.
well, the first time Sasuke was against an unorthodox way of swordfighting while the second time, Sasuke noobed out and assumed his genjutsu would be enough to take down Bee. Otherwise out of that, Sasuke didn't really have much of a disadvantage. Though he had virtually no advantage at all, even when he used Amaterasu.
Hiruzen's hype hasn't really been disproven though. There are a lot of excuses (that I can come up with) that could explain why Hiruzen's combat ability wasn't anywhere near any of the current kage.Quote:
Honestly, actions over words. Bee said perfect jinchuuriki are immune to genjutsu. Yet we saw Bee be put in genjutsu twice, once against MS and once against normal. Words are opinions or thoughts of characters, not necessary the author's. The actions are more the thoughts of the author's, in my opinion. If Kishi wanted Naruto to be a ninja who never gave up, he wouldn't just make Naruto say that, he'd show it. And show it he has, against Neji and Gaara to name a few.
Words can be contradicted or proven false, actions rarely are.
Doesn't Bee mean exactly that? That a the bijuu will help the Jinchuuriki awaken from the genjutsu, that's what he has shown at least being a perfect Jinchuuriki himself.
Words are words, but can anyone contradict Hiruzen being the best 30/40 years ago? Can't remember Konoha losing in a war under his command. :P
Last edited by Schabrak; August 08, 2012 at 04:05 PM.
if it means anything...minato stated kakashi,obito and rin...that konoha's military was at an all time low.that was why kakashi was in charge of the team and minato was working alone.
so they may not have lost a war...but there rotation of cadets/grads really got hit hard in the classes between minato and kakashi...to have a newly promoted 13yr old jonin take over a team and assist on a high profile mission...like sabotage.
That's war, being attacked by different/multiple countries in the first/second/third war will obviously deplete the number of graduated shinobi, that was never in question. I'm talking about Hiruzen and his skills, not konoha ninja. Also, Kakashi is a prodigy just like Itachi was, those two are not comparable to any normal ninja, so discussing them as evidence is totally pointless. Kakashi was/is the next candidate for Hokage.
Hashirama's cells were clearly shown to boost stamina, which is the only thing elderly ninjas would be lacking. You mention his age as if that supposedly must mean that he must have no fighting ability, yet clearly that's not true when we have seen the likes of Chiyo and Onoki in battle. Even with Sarutobi, his problem was stated to have been the lack of stamina. Susanoo wasn't the only thing he could do, merely what he best felt like doing. Tobi outright stated that, that Sasuke's reason for using Susanoo was to force Danzo to continuously use Izanagi so he would use them up. Heck, Sasuke fought just as much outside Susanoo too, using his weaponry and such. Funny to mention how Sasuke got saved by Susanoo once and somehow ignore that Danzo had to be saved nearly a dozen times from death. The only reason the battle went as long as it did was because Danzo had a bunch of extra lives, otherwise he would have been dealt with in a second. Sasuke obviously wouldn't have to be the Rikudou Sennin to still be superior to the majority of ninjas around.
i brought up the shinobi(jonin class especially)...because of the heavy losses under hiruzen(don't get me wrong...i heart sarutobi(pap pa).but,if they were that short of shinobi...i can't imagine the 3rd war was a victory.that was why i brought this up...
hiruzen was powerful no doubt....think about this....
when he became hokage was during the 2nd war(a young man)...by the time the 3rd war rolled around he was an old man.that is quite a bit of years without any"major"threats to konoha.this may speak a lot to hiruzen's strength back then...this i did not disagree with.
it was the war thing that i would dispute.....
Last edited by gnut; August 08, 2012 at 07:31 PM.
Sarutobi became Hokage during the First War. And there probably was so few conflicts because he was willing to compromise over just declaring war. Likely would have taken alot for him to allow Konoha to go to war.
Imagine how sad it would be to create your own sons
Maybe is some sort of jerkish propechy, he did foretold Naruto being his successor.Quote:
Well for Bijuus I doubt, since, apart from Kyuubi, it seems that normal people can become Jinchuuriki, they only have to have a respectable chakra pool
Everyone can be put in a genjutsu, being immune means you can break them.Quote:
Kabuto's way is being truly immune, and I believe a Byakugan user would too, since, you know, he could see through his eyelids closed.
A seemed pretty much immune since he shrugged off Sasuke's, until Madara took that notion and threw it out of the window
Well they did talk for a while, hell say "Kakashi has a kunai I gave him, rob him of it!"Quote:
That was after, see here ( I know mangareader is off for the states, but can you see mangahere? ).Quote:
Depends on Kishi, it seems to be at least 2-3 meters, but he did launched a blast that traveled the Four Tail's neck when he got rid of the spike Tobi implanted.
One of the reasons why SM seems a pretty good match to Susano'o, it can ( theorically ) bypass that defence with taijutsu
Its how the manga is, sadly.Quote:
At least is better than Bleach, where Ichigo had more power swings than a woman has mood swings when she PMS
He still had a Sharingan, and we know how the Sharingan, expecially a 3-tomoe Sharingan, can read and anticipate attacks.Quote:
Well I would normally agree with you, but we saw Oonoki that, according to Deidara, was even faster than his prime.Quote:
It depends, if the character is alive and well I agree with you, if the character is dead and making useless flashbacks is the only way, then better let him stay dead and let him live of hype.
An example of disproven hype is the famous "Jiraiya > Itachi & Kisame" one, realistically no one believes that Itachi and Kisame couldn't take down Jiraiya
---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------
Bee's praise was kind of forced since, his transformation was useless, since Sasuke was dead, Suigetsu was almost there to join him, Juugo was worthless to him and Karin... Well was Karin.
He transformed so he could escape, or to put it in better words to let him escape and give Sasuke at least a little bit of dignity in that fight
That would be true if Sasuke wouldn't have a conveniente, little set of eyes to do the work for him. He didn't figured out Deidara's jutsu by intelligence, he figured it out thanks to the hand-seal, that the Sharingan read.Quote:
Sasuke's way of outsmarting opponents is almost the same of Naruto, he simply uses the Sharingan while Naruto uses KB to do the trick.
Intelligence is Itachi figuring out Chibaku Tensei, and Shikamaru's all "brainy" explanations.
Being a genius =/= being intelligent, Neji was a prodigy yet he was outwitted by Naruto, just to make an example. Even Lee is a genius in his own way ( remember Kakashi telling that when he activated the gates? ), but he is no Shikamaru.
Why, for example, not use Chidori variatons against Kabuto?
He can make them non-lethal, like he did with Suigetsu, and it would still damage him pretty badly.
As for Sasuke, I doubt anything that concerns Itachi is worthless, so he was pretty slow on that one. Kishi's fault? Surely, but the Armadillo mission too was Kishi's fault
Do we read the same manga?Quote:
Sharingan's predicting ability makes the dodge a hell of a lot easier, you can dodge with inferior speed thanks to it, even more so if the movement is easily readable.
Again remember versus Gaara? "If I wouldn't have this eyes, I would be dead"
So a young body = an old body?Quote:
Hiruzen's weakness wasn't only his stamina, was the fact that he was slower, weaker, everything.
It is common sense that a young body would be way better suited for activity than a way older body, Danzou could've Hashirama's cells to boost his stamina, but not only it was uses solely for Izanagi, it still didn't gave him his physical abilities lost.
He wasn't fifty years old like the sannins, he was well beyond his seventies. Oonoki's situation is different since the guy uses rock jutsus to enhance his strenght, otherwise he would just be a tiny old man, his forte are his Jinton jutsus.
True, Danzou's fight was pathetic since he couldn't capitalize even 8 minutes of invincibility, no one is saying that.
But to say that Sasuke won effortlessy, or with ease, or without a bit of luck is untrue as well.
Kishi focused on Sasuke's susano'o right now, his overall skills are all but forgotten ( I can't still comprehend why he didn't use any Chidori variations against Kabuto, hell even against that web ) in favour of Susano'o spamming, and he can't measure up to the hype anymore when he is the only one of the mains in this manga that fights with a mecha 24/7.
His last noteable win against someone without Susano'o is the Deidara one, the Deidara that Sai and Kankuro fodderized along with Sasori