What? Yes he needs the 10 tails to finish the inner workings of the illusion. That's why I said the scope and complexity is determined by the chakra amount and chakra control. Inorder to make an entire world inside of a Genjutsu that can subdue an entire world's worth of humans, it's going to take a colossal amount of chakra.Originally Posted by marshall313
Just like not every Uchiha has the Sharingan, not every Uchiha is a Genjutsu specialist. And no, even those who have Sharingan need to be incredibly intelligent to cast an effective Genjutsu.Quote:
Genjutsu is created when a ninja extends their chakra flow through the cerebral nervous system of their opponent to control their mind, thereby affecting their five senses. Those with special abilities like the Uchiha clan's Sharingan — which can cast generic genjutsu — or with high intelligence have an easier time executing and countering genjutsu, as attention to detail is key.
Casting Genjutsu and being effective with Genjutsu are two different things. The Sharingan gives a ninja the ability to "see every detail and memorize it". This allows them to recreate images so that they can create an illusion so life-like it's almost indestinguishable from real life. Thus, it's hard to realize you're being fooled until it's too late. Keep in mind I'm just referring to illusory Genjutsu, not paralysis Genjutsu.
Sorry but I don't see the resemblance at all...
I will reply here, since it would be off-topic in the current chapter discussion thread.
I obviously was talking about current Gaara, who would stomp Hiruzen whenever he wants. But it's still a mistake on my side. Hiruzen was said to be stronger than Oonoki, A, Yagura/Mei and Gaaras father (not Gaara himself).
Still, Hiruzen seems to be one of the weakest if we look at the abilities of the mentioned Kages.
Hiruzen used Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, which decreased the individual strength/chakra of himself immensely, he also seems to be the speed type fighter with his staff, so his age took another big toll on him, which Oonoki could evade with his lightening technique. Just look at how he seems to have back problems every so often. Another problem was going against an ET Nidaime, having an huge advantage with his water jutsu, as well as ET Hisharama, who even ET EMS/Rinegan [halfgod] Madara told to be the only possible enemy for him. Than in complete darkness with seperated chakra used the taxing death god jutsu. And even after all that was done, he took on Orochimaru, being stabbed in the back and sealed his seal forming hands.
I'm only judging Hiruzen as he was shown in the manga. That's why I won't make assumptions like he was a speed monster, he has tons of S-Rank nuclear level Jutsus or he has counters to any Jutsu.
His feat in "defeating"/sealing ET Hashirama and Tobirama crumbled away, when we were told that both of them were actually stronger than they showed in their fight against Hiruzen. Tobirama never used his space/time Jutsu and I won't start to talk about Hashirama, who handled a perfect Susanoo and Kyuubi. Not to mention that we have seen better Suiton users than Tobirama.
This is Hiruzens arsenal so far:
- Shuriken Kage Bunshin no Jutsu
- Katon Karyuu Endan
- Doton Doryuuheki
- Kuchiyose no Jutsu: Enma
- Kage Bunshin no Jutsu
- Shiki Fujin
With this arsenal he nearly loses to every Kage who was shown fighting so far:
I give Hiruzen a decent fight against Mei and Tobirama, because I'm a generous person.
- He can't hit flying Jinton users.
- How is he going to harm/follow someone with the durability and/or speed like the 3rd + 4th Raikage and Minato?
- Scratching Hashirama isn't even possible, since he was boosted to a god in Part 2, which was not the case in Part 1
- He can't take on a perfect Jinchuuriki like Yagura
- No Jutsu/power in his arsenal kills Tsunade
- He can't get past Gaaras defense
- How is he surviving 10 minutes of Danzous (unofficial Hokage) god mode? Not to mention Shisuis Genjutsu...
- Even Kakashi (unofficial Hokage) has enough tools to win this quite easy.
Did I forget a Kage, who was shown fighting? I hope not.
This is not a post to downgrade Hiruzen. All I want to say is that Kishimoto changed quite a lot of things in Part 2.
Chiyo and Oonoki are older than Hiruzen, but it was never said that these two were greatly handicapped due to their age, feel free to correct me. Tobirama is now a space/time user, did he use it against Hiruzen?
In Part 2 there are people with extraordinary speed and durability, people with two Bloodline limits, flying dudes who fused three elements and therefore are able to shoot Kamehamehas, people who can die many times, a single person whose Jutsus are so devastating that the maps need to be redrawn and so on.
Things have changed, many things (not all) are not correct anymore. At this point Hiruzen was not the strongest among the Kages. His feat against Hashirama and Tobirama is worth nothing, when we take into account that both of them were stronger than Kishimoto showed us in Part 1.
We can only hope that we get a flashback of Hiruzens immense skill in his prime.
You should feel ashamed
You lack imagination
Go drink some liquors
Oonoki's biggest disadvantage is his Kekkei Touta, something I highly doubt Kishi had thought of in part 1.
Last edited by Schabrak; October 28, 2012 at 02:32 PM.
While I completely agree with your post, you have to know that the comparsion was made because a user wanted to know if it's correct to say that Hiruzen could beat Madara, since he "defeated" Hashirama and Tobirama at once.
Which is definitely not the case, I hope we all agree with this. We have to take what was shown in the manga and unfortunately Hiruzen right know pales in comparsion with every Kage, even though I'm well aware that comparing Part 1 with Part 2 characters should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Hiruzen was said to have known ever jutsu in Konoha.
From what he has shown, could he defeat Madara or many of the other Kages? No, he'd get steam rolled.
But...if we use our imagination, and what we know about Hiruzen we can get a general idea of what he is capable of. Lets start with these five points.
1) He was called the "God of shinobi" and was hailed by some as the strongest Hokage ever. That right there is tells us his power is top tier.
2) He was also called the professor because he knew every Konoha jutsu (obviously not Kekkai Genkai jutsu, or clan techniques). This tells us his arsenal is massive.
3) His databook stats indicate him having 5's in Genjutsu, Ninjutsu, Taijutsu. This goes with the God of Shinobi thing. His speed and stamina were lower than great, we can chalk this up to old age.
4) His ANBU body guards said in his younger age he would use multiple Shadow Clones in battle regularly. We know that when he was younger he had a hell of a lot of chakra, probably as much if not more than Jiraiya.
5) He was taught by arguably the greatest warrior ever in Hashirama.
Assuming all of this, let me paint a scenerio:
A young and powerful Hiruzen creates 10 clones all of whom start throwing around A-S rank ninjutsu at long range. He can keep doing this meaning you may never get in close contact with him which spells doom for a lot of ninja. The ONLY shinobi I realistically seeing giving him trouble would be Hashirama, Madara, Nagato, Oonoki, 3rd Raikage, Itachi and Minato. And quite honestly, if he uses the Death God he can kill anyone.