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Firstly I'd like to point out ch 124 page 14 where Roxanne used her tentacles instead of as projectiles launchers but as a cat of ninetails whip, attacking the nearby ground to keep Cassandra at bay. Lets face it Goral, if Roxanne wasn't able to hold off Cassandra as she clearly did in close range the fight would have ended long ago. So your who argument about lack of close range attack ability is misleading, since you ignored the other application of Roxanne's whips.
As to your argument about why Roxanne didn't counterattack once she was pinned, used up all her rods, and was half eaten by Cassandra already (and surrounded by her heads) I'd like to point out Isley mysteriously not trying to roll and squash the AFs on him simply by his greater mass too. Simply put she was already dead and knew no matter what she did it was pointless and wouldn't harm her opponent at that point just as Isley was. Plus Yagi was limited on how many pages he had and had a lot he needed to do, so simply put he just killed her quickly after what he wanted to say was said yet you too it as divine proof of Cassandra's power.
This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne. You where so quick to point out her lack of close range attacks and her lame death yet you missed the truly vital bit where neither was really true. Simply the fighting wasn't focused on Cassandra and Roxanne but more a quick fight and resolution to there characters and how Miria could exploit it. It is simple Cassandra failed to exploit any direct opening in Roxanne's attacks and defenses, so instead she used her fatal flaw make her oblivious to Cassandra setting her up for a Rope-a-dope. Cassandra was never able to beat Roxanne's overwhelming offensive abilities and her ability to shred her in close range with 8 whips, so instead she taunts and near misses to make Roxanne think she had the upper hand (which she did) however like in Muhammad Ali's 1974 Rumble in the Jungle match against George Foreman she let the stronger fighter who exploited all their power quickly do just that until she was drained of power, rods to attack with, then half way ate her so she could easily move in have the final words then eat the bitch.
Roxanne was defeated by a strategy that would only work once, if Roxanne escaped and faced that same situation again she likely would have been much harder to defeat... and as implied likely would have won.
Finally ch 124 page 16 Cassandra was laying prone and on the ground defeated under Roxanne's feet... yet clearly she some how escaped. So I ask you if Cassandra was as strong as you imply and Roxanne lacked close range abilities then how the fuck come that wasn't exactly what Cassandra was waiting for and how come she just didn't eat the whips off that "slow" Roxanne right then and there? Yet even after the escape Roxanne didn't just go OMG you overpowered me... therefore logically I'm weaker and I won't be so cocky later... It is simple, Roxanne had won but talked too long and Cassandra then realized Roxanne's nature of both wanting something held in reserve and the desire to gloat over her beaten opponent. This is where she got the idea from and Cassandra did escape but Roxanne believed it was from her Cassandra having a pointless second wind and her just not finishing her off then and there (think Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader in Empire where Luke is pinned down at lightsaber point but when Darth Vader starts blabbing about why Luke should join the DS brings up Obiwan's death Luke gains a weak second wind and swats the saber away and get back up, in short Roxanne (Vader) knew she was stronger but in this case Cassandra (Luke) figured out a fatal flaw and went for it rather than how Vader vs Luke played out).
You're explanation literally requires plot holes in several places and/or Cassandra to be beyond typical AO power (or Roxanne under it... but neither was implied the case so we can rule this out). So when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
- It is impossible for Roxanne to still have acted how she did after having defeated Cassandra, unless Cassandra was actually defeated and got away due to Roxanne giving her an opportunity to escape (either on purpose or a seemingly desperate escape).
- It is impossible for Cassandra to have been captured by Roxanne like she was when Roxanne unexpectedly unleashed the first of two of her two salvo attacks she did (ch 124 p 5 shot 1, ch 124 p 6 shot 2, ch 124 p 11 shot 3, ch 124 p shots 4 and 5 (resulting in Cassandra's capture), ch 125 p 2-3 shots 6 and 7, ch 125 p 10 shot 8 (final)) unless she was taken by surprise and unable to escape as a result of unleashing more power or dodging ability. Thus proving she would have really had a problem if Roxanne unleashed 3 or more shots in a single salvo, since dodging two while she was able to do it clearly pushed her to her limit and her entire plan (as she stated to Roxanne was that she wouldn't fire three shots).
Therefore the only possibility remaining is that Cassandra's ability to dodge Roxanne's rods was limited to reliably dodging about 2 per salvo as stated... surviving a salvo of 3 would be at least 50/50 and surviving a salvo of 4 would have been neigh impossible. What was stated was in fact reality and you are reading too much into it. Yes, Cassandra could have maybe survived a salvo of 3 but doing so uninjured would have been very very hard and would really come down to if Roxanne released it at the opportune moment or not. So even if she did survive who is to say she wouldn't have been wounded (thus possibly reducing her ability to dodge or maybe even made her unable to dodge at all) and from there Roxanne could have exploited her injury and defeated her. If even if it was for a few moments, if Roxanne really wanted too she could win then and there just as she could have won at ch 124 page 16 when she caught Cassandra by surprise with a two round salvo.
You are right Roxanne just carpet bombed an area but so what... Cassandra can only move so fast and dodge so much, if Roxanne was to cover a wide enough area with enough shots then no matter what Cassandra would get hit... after all her ability to dodge was hindered by her size since at the end of the day no matter where she bent it she was pretty big and she had no yoki precog abilities so we can't give her the benefit of the doubt. Both Cassandra and Roxanne agreed dodging 3 attacks would have been the likely chance when the fight would have got "interesting". So I think we can take both of them at there word (both just bantered from there own I'm going to win pov but both agreed 3 was the magic number)... however mathematically Roxanne had 8 shots and when it comes down to a poweroff thread like this Roxanne was capable of likely killing Cassandra twice over. Lets face it nothing stopped Roxanne from firing a salvo at the downed Cassandra other than her choosing to step on her... she could have won with only 2 rounds in the salvo due to the element of surprise, only Roxanne's fatal flaws of Vanity and Pride caused her from defeating Cassandra several times over and Cassandra herself told Roxanne that is why she defeated her too. Roxanne was too concerned with either playing it safe or a desire to capture/wound Cassandra so she could gloat over her before she finished her off.
It is very clear cut Roxanne was stronger than Cassandra. She lost due to her own tragic flaw and yes at the end Cassandra did use that against her. However the question here is power ranking in which case Roxanne was stronger, not who had the best mind of a warrior and does that counter the balance of power. In ranking, based solely on power Roxanne was more powerful and would have defeated Cassandra 9 out of every 10 fights.
---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ----------
8 = overkillQuote:
Last edited by Ryus; May 08, 2012 at 05:30 PM.
that being said who knows how many heads she could form, yeah we saw 3 but who knows really?
I'm not going to argue with you about Cassandra and Roxanne since you already have made up your mind already. Like you said "This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne." lol
However, from what I read, Cassandra is indeed stronger than Roxanne!
Last edited by God Eye Galatea; May 08, 2012 at 07:40 PM.
However as whether or not that head was the real one it is a game of semantics and not really relevant (after all even Deneve got hit in her real head so we know that the head injury that Cassandra's head got was very survivable, so we both could play that game... plus we know the tentacle weren't the real head since they kept getting cut off or stabbed), however I'm going to go out on a limb and say due to no single fake human sized head in the series yet talking that it was the real head. Plus the whole body design of pure AB body for one part and small looking but vulnerable human body and head sticking out was a rip of Ophelia that it might was well have been a massive clue from Yagi that is was the real head. Not every AB can do that after all.
For the record I haven't "made up my mind". Let me clarify my history in this debate since I'm from AS (mostly) and I doubt you read my posts on AS. I'll be kind from here on and simply clarify that on AS I, for a long time, debated Cassandra would end up being the strongest and or was (hell for a while I debated she'd end up being the new almost Teresa level character but she just failed to deliver time and again). My read of the situation is based on facts found in the manga and subject to change as more info is released, as Cassandra slowly became a flipping all over the place in terms of her power I changed my read on the situation with her power almost every chapter. By the end of her fight I just viewed it as I do now. I'm willing to debate my thesis, yet so far no one on any forum has been able to disprove it or provide me with a better thesis (mostly no one has bothered to try and like you just "substituted my reality for their own" and acted like they where so cleaver after that... *sigh).
However let me also supply a post I made on animesuki about a common mistake I believe people make for Roxanne's motivation for attacking Cassandra when they where both warriors. It wasn't that solely that she was a coward as many assume.
This was further evidenced by Roxanne charging the awakened Cassandra all by herself... she wasn't a bloody coward though she was a bit cautious by nature, and there is a difference there.Quote:
A coward would have brought Miria into her fight against Cassandra or tried to get Hysteria involved too so she could flee. Yet Roxanne took her on head by herself without a second thought and was laughing like a psycho about it, her hatred of Cassandra outweighed any self preservation instinct she had. Roxanne's nature was love and hate, both to insane levels and little else. Yes, she was a weak warrior in the past clinging to stronger warriors to survive but like Deneve she is was no longer that person by the time we got to know her.
Most argue Roxanne was weaker since she didn't kill Cassandra by herself and assume it was since she was weaker and scared of her (yet we have plenty of examples to counter both assumptions both there and by her later actions in the series). Or because she was defeated so easily in the end and you read my read on that above (Cassandra herself said Roxanne lost due to her nature not her power). Sorry but both are likely untrue, do you have something else to add here or where you just trying to be witty and kneejerkingly reacting to an opinion you disagreed with? I supported my argument fully and why I believe "This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne."
Oh btw, you took that quote out of context since it showed someone only evidencing the ranged rod attack failing upclose but ignored/overlooked the short ranged whip like attack holding Cassandra off 2 pages later... yet concluding Roxanne then had a disadvantage at close ranges. Which is akin to arguing since Isley could shoot arrows he logically was a weak close ranged fighter and failing to mention his arms ability to become a sword, lance, or axe. Good job at a comical strawman argument though ()
Last edited by Ryus; May 08, 2012 at 10:56 PM.
Regarding Claymore Cassandra and Roxanne, I didn't think she is motivated by cowardly intention, but her actions to Cassandra could be seen as cowardly tho (Having her friend tortured and killed, and setup for Cassandra's death). I always thought that Cassandra rocked Roxanne's mental world upside down. Roxanne being the Love and Hate person that she is have always (from what we read )"love" a technique first instead of that the person. For instance, Roxanne didn't go love at first sight with Uranus or Neideen, but rather when she seen their technique that she fell in love with them. After Roxanne acquired the technique, she would then "hate" the person and planned for their demise. However, in Cassandra's case since she hid her technique in secrecy, Roxanne was in "love" with Cassandra the person rather than her technique first (Ch 117 pg 13). When Roxanne finally seen the Dust Eater technique, she "hate" it before even acquiring it. I think that really messed up Roxanne's head big time, the many instances where she laughed like a psycho. In my opinion, I think consciously Roxanne hated the Dust Eater technique because it looked so weird and thus she wanted to believe that it is inferior to her. However, subconsciously I think Roxanne knew how powerful the Dust Eater technique really is. Thus, she planned for Cassandra's death in a way so everyone would be present, so she could exposed how weird and ugly Dust Eater technique (conscious motivation) and an insurance that she would sucessfully take out Cassandra and the hated Dust Eater technique (subconscious motivation). From the flashback, it looked like Cassandra was chopped up by other warriors and Roxanne in just minutes, but I beg to differ. From Dae, Cassandra took hours to die after getting cut up and Roxanne stated that she was the one who finished her off after she was all cut up. So I believed that Cassandra was actually Dust eating around the room for hours before Roxanne's Blade of Evil finished her off. Roxanne had the ability to hid her yoki from one target, so it is likely that she hid her presence from Cassandra and was running around the room as Cassandra was Dust Eating and other warriors wearing her out.
I think Claymore Roxanne still "love" Cassandra the person, but yet she still "hate" her Dust Eater technique, thus she laughed like a psycho and acted like psycho ex around awakened Cassandra. Awakened form of Cassandra, nude Cassandra (Roxann loves lol) and many heads representing the Dust Eater (Roxanne hates lol), Roxanne's mind was totally screwed by Cassandra's awaken forms as she laughed hysterically and charged at awakened Cassandra.
Ok now the awakened Cassandra and Roxanne part.
Have you consider the possibility that Cassandra was playing with Roxanne all along and she could have finish off Roxanne before Roxanne ran out of claws to fire? From what I read, Cassandra was enjoying messing with Roxanne and putting her in her place. I think Cassandra was giving Roxanne false hope that she has a chance to win against her, so she taunted her about how she would win if she dodge all her claws shootings. I believed that Cassandra allow Roxanne to use her techniques and so that she could then put Roxanne back in her place as a No.2. We can argue all day about how Roxanne could have or should have shoot more of her claws and etc. However, from what we seen in the awakened fight between Cassandra and Roxanne, Cassandra only fully utiliized the defenseness aspect of the Dust Eater which is evasiveness. The true offensive aspect of the Dust Eater is quick limbs removal, if Cassandra truly utilize the offenseness of the Dust Eater, Roxanne legs would have been long gone and after that her many arms would then be eaten as well. Considering Roxanne's regenerative ability is lacking in her awakened form, having her legs removed she would surely be crawling on the ground or keep standing with some of her arms. Cassandra would have surely Dust Eating her arms away quickly by then and Roxanne would be limbless on the ground and biting dust.
Last edited by God Eye Galatea; May 09, 2012 at 10:53 AM.
Next off Dae's wording was quite clear "There are 126 different wounds all over her body and yet it still took several hours for her to die" if you combine this with Cassandra's own words of "While cutting many, and being cut by many, all I did was head for Roxanne. I was not the least bit concerned about evading my comrades' attacks. In return for cutting my comrades I was prepared to be cut too. I lost my right arm, I lost my left leg and had one eye gouged out. And yet I drew , was unbecoming of Roxanne.A sword style called the Blade of Evil. I lost my remaining limbs and was cut to pieces by the hands of many comrades that where present..."
Simply put Cassandra herself stated all she did was charge forward not caring about injury to herself, so she couldn't have taken an hour or more to do so. Next off she was just too good of a fighter to have left uninjured as many warriors that sliced her up in the end as where shown if she took more than a minute to get through them, she blasted though number 3, 5 and 9 like they where nothing in mere moments. The only way these two different quotes work together and don't conflict is if Cassandra charged forward was sliced up but about to close in on Roxanne when Roxanne stopped her movements and everyone else hacked her limb from limb, then left her to die once she was defenseless. This would also make perfect sense since as far as everyone else was concerned she was a traitor who unlike Miria didn't try to not maim anyone but only KO them where as Roxanne was hacking off limbs of offensive warriors, not holding back, and using a move that had unnatural movements (combine that with rumors of Cassandra wanting to start an insurrection and people would start wondering if she had awakened in secret or gone mad)
Anyways I'd just like to point out Roxanne's usage of the Blade of Evil, I see its usage as a message to Cassandra "That move is dirt and so are you", Roxanne's hating of Cassandra was mostly due to Roxanne viewing her as unbecoming of a number one due to having to rely on such a desperate technique (fill in your own beliefs here if the motivation behind it was because Roxanne went extra insane due to it reminding her of her past and being a weakling or just because she despised weakness and hated Cassandra since she looked up to her thinking she wasn't and disappointed her, or whatever)
Once again I must remind you this is a power off thread not a who defeated who thread. What worked once won't always work again and in a power off thread it must work the majority of the time to have any substance. It's like saying since Miria beat Hysteria once she could do it again, yeah well maybe but 9 out of 10 times I'd wager not.
As to your reference to Cassy's ability at quick limb removal I'd say Roxanne countered that ability very well until she wasted all her shots being a dumbass. Cassy landed only 2 hits before Roxanne started firing and one of those was when Roxanne was chasing the twins, Roxanne must have scored dozens more and defeated Cassy but started the cliched villain mistake of monologuing rather than finishing off Cassandra then and there she gave Cassandra the vital clue of how to defeat her.
Though maybe this scene is more closer to what happened with Roxanne vs Cassandra, minus the whole bomb thing lolz
Until you can explain how come one who was playing around with someone else could get trapped and defeated, your argument holds little weight. Yes she messed around with her, but not for the entire fight and she didn't win from power or by making Roxanne dance to her beat the entire fight but from exploiting her opponents very nature which was revealed after she was honestly defeated. I get where you are coming from but I feel you are overlooking many important points in the plot, points which I addressed earlier yet you didn't even bring up here. I do have an open mind but as I told you I am clinging to my current pov since I see no other way to explain the events I'm seeing in the plot. If you can explain them better then great I may change my tune but if you don't I must ask if it's because you can't. I mean no offense with that but it simple it the way it is.
Oh my gosh... must you write an essay Ryus?
It's your assumption that Elizabeth had actually use her beautiful sword technique during that hunt. The fact is that single digit warriors can finished off awakened hunt without ever using their special technique. Considering that awakened hunt have 2 No.30's warriors, it's my assumption that awaken being couldn't pose enough threat for Elizabeth to use her special beautiful technique. Roxanne could have seen Elizabeth's technique later on. Whether or not Elizabeth has used her technique during that particular hunt is up to debate.
I'm not sure if you really understand my points on how Cassandra screwed up Roxanne's already twisted mind. Moreover, I am not sure where you get Roxanne hated her past self from.
But it's hard to imagine someone with that many wounds laying around for hours not dead and not awakening. Resurrected Cassandra awakened once her wounds were reopened. So it's really up for debate.
What you are implying is that if Roxanne shot more of her claws then Cassandra would have been easily defeated. I agree somewhat that if Roxanne have shoot more of claws then she would have a chance on winning against Cassandra, but it doesn't mean that even if Roxanne shoot more claws she would definitely beat Cassandra.
Roxanne countered Cassandra's evasiveness a bit with her claws shooting, I'll give her that. But her whip attacks didn't even touch Cassandra. If Cassandra truly utilitze her offensive aspect of the Dust Eater, Roxanne limbs would have been long gone. Even using your logic, Cassandra only landed 2 hits, if Cassandra truly utilize the offensiveness of the Dust Eater, then on her second hit she would have aim at Roxanne's leg instead of her hair. Again, using your logic, Cassandra could have actually scored more hits on Roxanne than it was actually shown. And you didn't address how Roxanne would counter Cassandra if she truly utilize her offensive aspect of the Dust Eater that aim at removing her limbs.
If you are talking about the part where Roxanne stepped on Cassandra, using your logic Roxanne could have finished off Cassandra then and there, but with the same logic Cassandra could have use her Dust Eater to remove Roxanne's legs, then her arms and Roxanne would have been doom.
We can't be sure that Roxanne have actually trapped Cassandra and defeated her on the panels where Roxanne stepped on her. The fact is that the pose of Cassandra's awakened form look like it is laying there, and Roxanne standing and stepping on her does give a false appearance of defeat.
From what we have seen:
-Regenerative Power (regenerated all wounds received from Roxanne)
-Evasiveness Dodging ability (can dodge whip attacks, evade moderate claws shooting)
-Dust Eater head limb removing attacks (didn't use it to remove Roxanne's limbs)
-Hard skin (ineffective against Roxanne's claws shooting)
-Whip claws arms attacks (ineffective against Cassandra)
-Claws shooting attack (can somewhat hit Cassandra, cover large area but not really precise location)
Yes, Roxanne best bet and only chance in winning against Cassandra was her claws shooting attack. Yes, I strongly believe that Cassandra was playing with Roxanne. If Cassandra was serious, she would have aim for Roxanne's legs then arms from the start. If she did that, Roxanne would have little to no chance against her considering her bad regenerative power. Cassandra have plenty of chances in removing Roxanne's limbs, but she didn't. Roxanne's whip attacks was ineffective against her, she could have close in and remove a leg or two. Even when Roxanne stepped on her, she has the chance to remove her limbs. Like I said, it's the nature of the position that makes it looks like Roxanne defeated Cassandra. Keep in mind, Cassandra regenerated all the wounds she received from Roxanne quickly. Thus, I believe that she allowed Roxanne to use her attacks on her. Awakened Cassandra is a bad girl, she gave Roxanne the false hope that she could beat her, and then by letting Roxanne finsh all her attacks she then cruelly crushed that hope and finish her off.
---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------
Oh I missed this before, have to address these.
If how Cassandra finish off Roxanne is not "overpower" then I am not sure what is. Cassandra is good as new after her battle with Roxanne. If Roxanne was as powerful and could defeat Cassandra twice over as you believed, then Cassandra would have suffered severely after their battle even if she did win with your logic that she exploited Roxanne's flaw tragic nature.
Last edited by God Eye Galatea; May 09, 2012 at 10:22 PM.
First, let it be known that most of what shall follow are purely speculative. Please, feel free to object, but please, do so in an insightful and constructive manner. I consider Alicia and Beth to be identical in all aspects, so what goes for Alicia will be the same for Beth. So let's see...
1) Isley vs Riful - 75/25 in Isley's favor. I'm convinced that Isley would be able to morph his arms into bladed weapons similar to Alicia's, which, as we know, is Riful's weakness. I also assume that Isley's speed is comparable to Alicia's, so in the end, this battle should be similar to Riful vs a bigger Alicia. Though the interference of the Destroyer led to some mishaps for Riful, it's quite clear that she was at a disadvantage against Alicia, as such, the hypothetical scenario between Isley and Riful would likely be similar. The big difference is Isley's size. A 10-m tall centaur is far easier to hit than a 2- or 3-m tall humanoid AO.
2) Isley vs Luciela - Isley
3) Isley vs Alicia - 50/50. This one can go either way. Both have ridiculous damage potential, and both are likely to be unable to defend against the other's offensive power. Alicia doesn't seem to have all that much defense and Alicia's blades are likely to be sharp enough to cut through any shield Isley can conjure. Again, Isley's size puts him at a disadvantage, but he has been shown to be far nimbler than he looks.
4) Isley vs Hysteria - 75/25 in Isley's favor. I know most will object to this, but this is what is special about Hysteria's case. Hysteria, when pitted against every other AO, will always have a chance of winning, however small, simply because of her speed. She is easily the fastest thing in the CLAYMORE universe and is very unlikely to be hit by anything, even Isley's homing arrows. However, her damage potential is laughable, considering she can only tear off small chunks with every attack. So in the end, it's a matter of 1) how large an opponent is, and 2) how the opponent fares in regeneration. The longer the battle rages on, the more likely Hysteria will begin to suffer fatigue, leading to a decrease in evasiveness, and as we have seen, given Hysteria's defense, one strong, clean hit is enough to finish her off.
5) Isley vs Roxanne - Isley. This is essentially another Isley vs Riful. However, Roxanne has a far smaller number of whips compared to Riful's strips, so her damage potential is inferior. Also, Roxanne's body isn't nearly as versatile as Riful's. As for her claws, I don't know. While Isley's size makes it difficult for him to evade such an attack type, Roxanne's claws don't seem to have enough destructive capacity to kill Isley outright, much less if he managed to conjure a pretty hefty shield with his arms before the attack goes off.
6) Isley vs Cassandra - Isley. While agile in Dust Eater mode, it would be quite easy for Isley to simply run out of range and fire volley after volley of arrows upon Cassandra. Cassandra has expressed that had Roxanne used enough of her claws, the latter may have had the chance of defeating her, and since Isley's arrows are a similar attack type, I'm guessing the statement holds true. Isley's projectiles have far greater destructive capacity than Roxanne's slim and tiny claws, but the most important thing is the arrows' homing nature. The question lies in whether Cassandra in Dust Eater mode is fast enough to evade such homing projectiles. Personally, I believe Cassandra would be able to evade a few, and would eventually get worn down later by the cumulative damage she receives. Also, Cassandra's head-tipped tentacles are easy targets for the arrows, thus reducing Cassandra's offensive output. They were easy enough targets for Roxanne's claws, much more with projectiles that could home in on the "necks."
7) Riful vs Luciela - 75/25 in Riful's favor. Luciela's damage potential seems to be limited to her mouth and claws, whereas Riful's is limited by the number of strips she has. True, Luciela may be able to instantaneously grow mouths in areas she knows would be attacked, but the question lies in whether she would be able to keep up given the sheer number of strips Riful can put out at any given time.
8) Riful vs Alicia - Alicia
9) Riful vs Hysteria - 50/50. Again, Riful's strips don't seem all that fast, so it's unlikely Hysteria would be hit at all. As such, Hysteria would simply have to whittle away at Riful's body. Now, Riful's body isn't as large as it seems since it's mostly hollow so she would be more manageable compared to someone like Isley. However, Riful herself is quite difficult to gnaw away at, considering she could disassemble into narrow strips.
10) Riful vs Roxanne - Riful. It would be easy enough for Riful to expend eight of her strips to keep Roxanne's whips at bay while using the rest to attack Roxanne. As for Roxanne's claws, Riful could easily disassemble into strips once Roxanne launches the attack. Since all the claws radiate from Roxanne, Riful could orient her strips so that the narrower side faces Roxanne, allowing for maximal evasion. Unfortunately for Roxanne, using multiple arms at the same time doesn't increase the density of blades, i.e. the number of blades raining upon a given area, it simply increases the attack radius (she says so herself in Scene 124). As such, using all eight arms at once would not increase the probability of hitting Riful.
11) Riful vs Cassandra - 75/25 in Riful's favor. While Cassandra is incredible agile in Dust Eater mode, she would still be hard-pressed if Riful used a significant number of strips at once. Who knows, if Riful used every single strip she could afford, she might even be able to slice at Cassandra's feet, rendering her unable to use the Dust Eater. Nevertheless, the speed of Cassandra's head-tipped tentacles isn't something to laugh about, and Cassandra would likely be able to consume a fair number of Riful's strips during the battle.
12) Luciela vs Alicia - Alicia. Alicia's size and speed would make her a difficult target to hit. Couple this with her ridiculous damage potential and Luciela is bound to be overwhelmed. Of course, there's the slim possibility that Luciela would be able to sprout a mouth near an attacking Alicia, but I'm guessing Alicia's reflexes are fast enough to shred that mouth to pieces even before it manages to snap shut and bite her.
13) Luciela vs Hysteria - 50/50. Similar to Alicia, except for the fact that Hysteria's offensive power is far lower but her agility is likely to be significantly higher. It's unlikely that Luciela would be able to predict where Hysteria would attack next given the latter's overwhelming speed, so the mouths would be ineffective. That is, of course, unless she decides to grow mouths on every single inch of her body. I doubt she has the capacity, though, since she battled Isley, who was as strong as they come, and didn't use such a technique. Again, some may argue that it's an unfair supposition but I think it's wise to limit ourselves in such a manner.
14) Luciela vs Roxanne - 75/25 in Luciela's favor. One of the rare fights Roxanne might actually win. I highly doubt Roxanne's whips are faster than Isley's arrows, so Luciela should be able to grow mouths and sever Roxanne's whips. As for the Roxanne's claws, Luciela's awakened form is quite large, so without a doubt, she'd get hit. I'm guessing they are about as fast as Isley's arrows, so again, the mouths should be able to swallow those relatively small blades easily enough. The question lies in whether Luciela can grow enough mouths to eat everything. If she doesn't, then Roxanne just might win. However, if she empties her arms and doesn't inflict enough damage to Luciela, then she's as good as dead.
15) Luciela vs Cassandra - Cassandra. An eater vs an eater. As to whose mouths shall emerge triumphant, I don't know. They're each as likely to gnaw the other out before the other has a chance to bite, so that aspect's a draw. Cassandra emerges triumphant, however, in everything else. Her Dust Eater was able to evade eight of Roxanne's whips at once, so evading the swipes from two arms and two tails +/- a head should be child's play.
16) Alicia vs Hysteria - 50/50. One with great speed and offensive power; the other, with even greater speed but far lower damage potential. This fight can go either way. It's unlikely that Alicia would be able to hit Hysteria, but if she does manage to get a hit in, Hysteria's minced meat. Being roughly the same size as her, however, Hysteria would be able to gnaw off chunks of Alicia and reduce her to nothing faster than any other AO.
17) Alicia vs Roxanne - Alicia. Being a small and nimble, Alicia should be able to evade and cut up Roxanne's whips with as much ease as she did Riful's, and considering Roxanne only has eight of these, well, you get the idea. As for the claws, Alicia has a small body, so the hit percentage is already low to begin with. Add to this Alicia's agility and she should be able to evade the rain of claws easily enough. Given Alicia's offensive power, it's also quite likely she could face one of those claws head on and shred it to pieces.
18) Alicia vs Cassandra - Alicia. Alicia should be able to cut up those head-tipped tentacles easily enough. As for the Dust Eater, well, it's quite hard to say, but I'm hypothesizing that she could catch Cassandra's feet with some effort, rendering her unable to execute the Dust Eater.
19) Hysteria vs Roxanne - Hysteria. One of the rare fights I'm guessing Hysteria can outright win. As with Alicia, Hysteria could easily evade anything Roxanne throws at her. Again, using several arms at once only increases Roxanne's attack radius but does not decrease the gaps between the blades, as such, using one armful of blades has the same efficacy against Hysteria as using all eight at once. Considering Roxanne's regenerative and defensive capabilities seem to be lackluster, Hysteria should be able to take her apart faster than she would, say, Isley, who is of similar size but with greater regenerative and defensive capabilities.
20) Hysteria vs Cassandra - 75/25 in Cassandra's favor. While Cassandra shouldn't be able to hit Hysteria, her defensive capabilities and regeneration seem to be very good. Likewise, her agility while using Dust Eater is nothing to laugh about. True, it may not be on par with Hysteria's speed, but it should be enough to get Hysteria to put a bit more effort than usual. This, added to the likelihood that the battle will be drawn out because of Cassandra's size, defense and regeneration, gives Cassandra the edge. As mentioned earlier, Hysteria may end up developing fatigue because of the length of the battle and end up getting hit.
21) Roxanne vs Cassandra - Cassandra
22) Everyone vs Rosemary - Everyone. Just 'cause Rosemary was so easily pwned. True, it was Teresa, but still...
So all-in-all, the rankings would be:
1-3) Isley/Alicia/Beth - each with 6 "points"
4) Riful - with 4.25 "points"
5-6) Hysteria/Cassandra - each with 4 "points"
7) Luciela - with 2.5 "points"
8) Roxanne - with 1.25 "points"
9) Rosemary - with 0 "point"
Surprisingly close to SutterCain's own ranking. If we choose to use a weighted system, wherein those who actually stand a chance to win against more powerful AOs (based on the above) would get a higher "score," (e.g. a certain win against Isley or Alicia would be awarded 6 points while a 50-50 chance would get 3 points, etc) then the ranking would be:
4) Hysteria (Huh!?)
I was surprised by what came out as well. Hysteria shot up despite her lackluster performance in the manga because of her hypothetical probability to win against even the "stronger" AOs because of her speed. Cassandra, surprisingly, ranked lower than her because her hypothetical wins were against the "weaker" AOs.
Last edited by Fermat; May 10, 2012 at 03:59 AM. Reason: grammatical errors
I voted Alicia because of her slice&chop technique . But here is my top:
The (Old) "Unholy Trinity":
The apparent "alliance" made by Riful and Luciela to kill Isley suggests they are weaker than him. Also I think Riful is the most inteligent of the three, so I gave her the nº2 despite having no proof of her being stronger than Luciela.
The (New) "Unholy Trinity":
To me Cassandra is clearly superior to the other two, this together with the fact that Roxanne is lower than shit, puts Hysteria in the nº2.
All 8 AOs in Ranking:
I put Rosmary at the nº8 because:
(a) I don't think she's stronger than the three old abysal ones (or maybe she is and Teresa can tear apart Isley, Riful and Luciela with a single blow ).
(b) The Organization didn't chose to revive her nor mentioned her in the list of possible nº1 that could be cloned.
Last edited by metalia; May 17, 2012 at 11:59 AM.
Oh noes lol I didn't say anything about the original topic
Here is my analysis.
I believe all of the Abyssal Ones (AOs) overall power levels in terms of yoki are about equal, even if there are any differences, it wouldn't be as significant compare to Priscilla or the Destroyer. What really distinguish them from being the "strongest" or the "weakest" really lies in their specialized abilities, techniques, and endurance in their awakened forms.
I always thought the Original "Unholy Trinity" powers were about equal and their abilities kind of cancel each others' out, like they are like rock, paper, and scissors (Rock = Isley, Paper = Riful, Scissors = Luciella)
Luciella vs. Riful: 55% vs. 45%, Luciella can counter Riful's many ribbons attacks with her mouths and actually eat Riful's attacks like spaghetti, it's more of an endurance fight, although she would win she would still suffer significant damages.
Riful vs. Isley: 55% vs. 45%, Riful's body could probably evade Isley's arrows easily, it's more of close combat fight, although Isley's could change his arms to different weapons but with only 2 arms he is limited to 2 weapons meanwhile Riful has many ribbon blades at her disposals.
Isley vs. Luciella: 55% vs. 45%, Luciella countered Isley's arrows with her mouths, it was a close combat and endurance fight, at the end Luciella lost and Isley barely won with more endurance.
"The Queen of Blades" Alicia and Beth are created and designed for destroying the Original AOs and they specialized in cutting especially Alicia and with the speed to evade attacks from Riful. I am not really counting Beth because she sort of got a power boost from the Destroyer.
Alicia vs. The Original Three AOs: 60% vs. 40%, Alicia may have some problem with Luciella tho, due to Alicia required fighting in close combat, Luceilla's mouth from her tails and body may catch her off guard and damage her. Alicia can probably cut up everything Isely throw at her, and then cutting him up close range. If Alicia is a full AO without Beth suppressing her yoki and keeping her mind, Riful wouldn't find any weakness to exploit, it would have been only a matter of time before Alicia cut her up and finish her.
Hysteria the Elegant specialized in speed, the fastest AO, but the downside is her small body with lack of weapons especially in her final winged form. When using her speed attacks, firing herself like a rocket, Hysteria actually rely on her body to cause damage to the target. In her initial form, she could use her anchors as weapons, but it doesn't seem it would add much more damage factors to her against other AO level opponents.
Hysteria vs. Luciella: 40% vs. 60%, Luciella just have to wait for Hysteria to come at her and have her mouths ready to damage Hysteria enough to slow her down and finish her.
Hysteria vs. Riful: 40% vs. 60%, Riful just have to adjust her ribbons body when Hysteria come at her, and use her ribbons blades to wear Hysteria down and then finish her.
Hysteria vs. Isley: 40% vs. 60%, Isley just have to transforms his arms into giant fly smackers lol
Hysteria vs. Alicia: 40% vs 60%, Since both have similar body size, all Alicia have to do is keep spinning herself around and when Hysteria come at her she would just kill herself by Alicia's cutting blades arms
Roxanne of Love and Hate has whip claw arms attack and limited strong claws shooting ability, but lack regenerative power and her body movements speed seem average at best. Unless she still has parasitic ability or other ability yet to be revealed, these are all she has.
Roxanne vs. Luciella: 40% vs. 60%, Luciella just have to tank Roxanne's claws and eats them and she could probably countered Roxanne's whip attacks with her own tails whip attacks
Roxanne vs. Riful: 40% vs. 60%, Riful's ribbon body could minimize most of the damage caused by Roxanne's shooting claw, so she just have to wait out Roxanne to empty all her claws to win the battle.
Roxanne vs. Isley: 40% vs. 60%, As strong as Roxanne's limited shooting claws are, it would still be no match against Isley homing arrows, so Roxanne really lacks any defense against long range homing arrows.
Roxanne vs. Alicia: 35%% vs. 65%, With Alicia's small body size she could probably evade Roxanne's claws shooting (huge gaps) and also with super cutting power, even if she can't evade a claw she could probably could cut them to pieces, and close in to finish Roxanne
Roxanne vs. Hysteria: 45% vs. 55%, with Hysteria's speed she could probably evade all of Roxanne attacks, and with Roxanne's lack of regenerative ability, Hysteria could just continue to speedy damage Roxanne until she is down.
Cassandra the Dust Eater, a technique created and specialized in taking down awakened beings, a defensive and offensive technique, defensive aspect is evasiveness a fast dodging ability, and offensive aspect is quick limbs removal, legs and then arms. Once you are down unless the opponent has instantaneous regeneration of the limbs like Priscilla, the battle is pretty much over. Cassandra also have an impressive regenerative power and endurance.
Cassandra vs. Luciella, 65% vs. 35%, Cassandra evades Lucilla's tail whips, close in to remove the legs, Luciella once she is down she is as good as dead.
Cassandra vs Riful: 60% vs. 40%, Since Riful has so many ribbons blades as legs, Dust Eater limbs removal wouldn't be that useful, so it's more of a battle of endurance, Cassndra would probably win the endurance battle though.
Cassandra vs. Isley: 60% vs. 40%, As fast as Isley is, Cassandra's Dust Eating speed is pretty good, and her Dust Eating heads can extend to good long range, once she get the legs of Isley and down him, the battle is pretty much over.
Cassandra vs. Alicia: 55% vs. 45%, It's a battle of how fast Alicia can cut Cassandra versus how fast can Cassandra remove the legs of Alicia, but with Cassandra's impressive regenerative power even if Alicia cut a head tip or two, she can probably regenerate fast enough to remove a leg or two from Alicia, once she is down it's over.
Cassandra vs. Hysteria: 65% vs. 35%, As fast as Hysteria is, Cassandra is a tank, Cassandra just have wear Hysteria down enough to take her out.
Cassandra vs. Roxanne: 65% vs. 35%, Cassandra easily evade Roxanne's whip attacks, she can somewhat dodge Roxanne's claws shooting. If Cassandra just aim for Roxanne's legs from the start, then considering Roxanne's bad regenerative ability, once she down she is good as dead.
Rosemary seems like a eater type fighter, but we don't know much about her abilities or what she specialized in. Therefore, it very difficult to gauge how she fair against other AOs' abilities and techniques.
Rosemary vs. Hysteria: 40% vs. 60%, If Rosemary can damage Hysteria when she come at her then she has a possibility to win, but if not she is dead.
Rosemary vs. Roxanne: 40% vs. 60%, If Rosemary can tank the claws shooting from Roxanne, then she has a possibility to win.
Rosemary vs. the Rest of AOs: 35% vs. 65%, Unless more reveal about Rosemary's awakened abilities, I am not sure how Rosemary can counter against other AOs abilities.
So my rankings would be:
3. Isley, Riful, and Luciella
Cassandra tops the ranking because of her abilities, specialized awakening being killing technique the Dust Eater, fast dodging, and her impressive endurance.
Nice analysis Galatea, the only one i kinda disagree with is hysteria vs alicia.
Since hysteria can only chip away small pieces off her enemies she is in an enormous disadvantage when fighting large AOs, but when fighting a small one she can deal massive damage using her speed and agility. I think hysteria has the advantage in this fight, but only because of her speed. Alicia is more badass though!
Yes, I did take into consideration their similar body size, but Alicia's arm blades cover a good area of her body, attached to her long blades are smaller blades that move constantly cutting away anything it touches, and she can spin attack like this :3
Hysteria would just kill herself if she uses her speedy attacks if Alicia just spin herself like that.
As fast as Hysteria is, her downside is firing herself like a rocket using to body to cause damages, and she really lacks any defenses or weapons against AO level opponents. If her opponent has offensive power like Alicia at close range, it's dangerous for Hysteria.
Oh I forgot to mention, as funny as it sounds, I think Hysteria would have more offensive power if she still has the claymore stuck in her throat. She could have actually incoporate the claymore in her throat when using her speedy attacks that would have added more damage since the claymore is indestructible. With Hysteria's precision, she can probably speedy attacks only using that part of claymore sticking out to attack, much like her Elegant technique she was using as a warrior. But of course, it still dangerous to have a claymore stuck in your throat because the opponent can exploit as a weakness as well.
Oh one more thing I am always curious about, whatever happened to Alicia's claymore sword when she awakens. The claymore sword is on her back, but when she awakens it magicially disappeared, but when she de-awaken it's magically appeared back on her back. Considering the size of the claymore sword and the body size of awakened Alicia, and we can still see the cape and her uniform (the claymore sword is supported by a clip on the uniform and it's partly cover under the cape), so I don't think it is suck into her awakened form tho. *Shrugs*
Last edited by God Eye Galatea; May 18, 2012 at 09:00 AM.