Originally Posted by njt
- Kisame thinks Itachi can take Jiraiya
- Kisame thinks he cannot take Jiraiya himself
- Itachi think that together they cannot take Jiraiya
- Itachi think that even if back-up arrived they could not take Jiraiya
It is weird to say the manga cannot be used as proof of the manga. Given that Itachi is a pro at calm analysis of a situation, I trust his position on his own abilities more than I trust Kisame's position on Itachi's abilities. What we have here is a situation where Kisame thinks Kisame cannot win, and Itachi thinks that Itachi cannot win, etc. This is not looking good, especially when Itachi thinks the best they can do is a mutual strike down. Sannin for the win.
it wasnt only itachi who praised jiraiya . kisame also agreed to what itachi said using his own evaluation , if it was just a lie to save konoha , kisame wouldnt buy it
and for gods sake , jiraiya is the only person we saw sealing amaterasu , how is it -having no counter- ? orochimaru can switch bodies and tsunade can regenerate infinitely
and itachi CAN NOT spam those techs . 1 tsukiyomi and 1 amaterasu was his limit ,later on he used them both together with susanoo and he died
itachi has his limits but the sannins are all spam types
Itachi was always willing to make sacrifices, why assume that he would not have been willing to sacrifice Jiraiya on that long-ass list just because you dislike what he said?
- kill his own clan
- torture his own brother
- sacrifice Naruto to Sasuke
- lure jiraiya away from Naruto for capture
- let Kisame shave Naruto, kidnap Naruto
- order Kisame to kill Asuma and Kurenai
The Kurama issue is a clearly exposed lie at this point, not a valid comparison. There is no debate around that matter, at all. Manga lie is manga lie.
Outed as a liar
Last edited by jdw; March 10, 2012 at 12:35 PM.
From what we have seen Hiruzen has shown to be weak in comparison to other ninjas. Yet while being well past his prime he defeated the 1st and 2nd Hokage and sent Orochimaru fleeing. What other Kage can claim such a feat?
Even if you don't agree with that logic, Itachi and Kisame mutually agree that they wouldn't defeat him. Enough said. Fight over. Sannin Victory.
But let me gues:
Thus you are simply believing blindly into some claims that where made, even though all actual evidence is pointing towards the complete opposite.
Last edited by LnDRash; March 10, 2012 at 01:01 PM.
I'm as big of a Jiraya fanboy as they come, but I really can't see how he's supposed to beat Itachi and Kisame at the same time. Those quotes have been used time and time and time and time again, and sure, they seem pretty fool proof. However, there are some things to take into consideration.
#1 Kishi's troll sense of strength relations in the manga. Hiruzen was supposed to be the strongest hokage and 'the Professor' and 'God amongst shinobi', but lately we've been told that Hashrirama was thought to be second to only the RS himself. Kishi seems to have changed his mind time and time again throughout the manga.
#2 Itachi and Kisame's statements were made in PART 1 of the manga, thus we have no clue whether or not Itachi was as strong as he has been portrayed in part 2. The biggest question here is of course whether or not he had access to Susanoo and the legendary artifacts at this point in time. The timeskip was a full 3 YEARS, during the course of which he could easily have gathered the artifacts.
We have no way of knowning if he had access to Susanoo in part 1. It can be argued that since Sasuke was able to awaken Susanoo relatively quickly after he awakened his MS, Itachi would also have done so, however Sasuke was put into a series of manipulated incidents specifically made to quickly evolve his MS.
I mean, Itachi had his MS for YEARS without loosing his eyesight, yet Sasuke lost his after what, a month? Sasuke had obviously used his MS WAY, WAY more than Itachi ever did, and I think it's safe to assume, that Itachi's MS progress was therefore slower than Sasuke's.
I think that it is entirely possible that Itachi didn't have access to Susanoo, or at least not the legendary artifacts, during part 1, which would definately cause Jiraya to become an entirely more threatning opponent.
Last edited by Pervy Sage; March 10, 2012 at 01:04 PM.
Even if you think they can win, which is fine, it is a manga fact that they do not think they can win individually, and Itachi doesn't think they can win as a team. Who is the one with blind beliefs despite what he is actually told in the manga?
Last edited by jdw; March 10, 2012 at 01:09 PM.
I continue to believe the match could go either way, I've already stated the reasons why. But, I'd just like to point out for the sake of the argument that the conditions of the match include Itachi being healthy, free from his illness, something that affected my decision to make it a toss-up. His illness significantly affected his abilities, especially his stamina, in the conflicts we witnessed, it also affected his eyesight as he was considered to be nearly blind. That would mean that Itachi is superior to what he actually was in the manga. Once again this is just for the sake of the discussion, it seems to be something a few people have forgotten.
With this power-up, because that essentially is what it is, Itachi and Kisame vs the Sannin could go either way.
I don't need to. I have manga facts. You say Itachi would win, Itachi disagrees. I'm sorry if you find it hard to accept but I didn't write the manga.Quote:
Itachi and Kisame said they wouldn't win against Jiraiya. Describe how that is a blind claim?Quote:
Their is no objective evidence that states Itachi would beat Jiraiya. So your view is subjective. We have evidence and it says Itachi and Kisame can't beat Jiraiya.Quote:
2) tortured Sasuke to give him motivation to get stronger through hate
3,4,5) who gives a shit about Naruto. Heck, if he dies, Akatsuki's plans just got delayed for whatever amount of years it takes the Kyuubi to regenerate
6) yet, everybody is alive and no harm is done. We've already seen Itachi capable of taking out superior opponents in mere seconds ie: Oro and Deidara
You obviously failed to understand my point. There are always going to be things said by people that aren't going to be absolute truths. You need learn to read between the lines. There is plenty of evidence of Itachi's power surpassing that of Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunada. Even if you hold his quote to be the truthful, he could have simply underestimated himself and Kisame, or overestimated Jiraiya. Its not going to be the first time that happens either. I'm sure Oro didn't go into battle with Itachi thinking he was going to lose, yet he got owned every time. Ee thought he had a superior Lariat than Bee and he got owned. Battle and ability feats trump any random one liner as far as I'm concerned. And Itachi has shown much more power than any Sannin.
Itachi can disagree all he wants... that doesn't make it any more believable when everything else we've actually seen tells a different story.
If Itachi told you he's a two headed ogre with purple skin and blonde pigtails, would you take that as a 100% fact too? Even though your eyes are telling you something else?
If thats so then have fun with that... I'll prefer to use logic and make myself a picture and form an opinion by taking into account everything else that happened, because words can be deceiving, actions not.
Last edited by LnDRash; March 10, 2012 at 01:52 PM.