Neither good, nor bad
The thing to remember is, everything we are saying is largely just speculation....their is enough to at least say with huge certainty, that the worst outcomes of this (like the story really ending here), is extremely unlikely...
Even the title change is something that may not even happen, as I hope, since, playing semantics (and that's what this all is really), the text said "perhaps"...maybe Yagi is waiting to see the fan-reaction before moving on this one.
Who knows what will happen next month, but I think the answers are easier then we're making it out to be...I mean, I think we were told that the text seemed to say Claymore was ending, and then someone realized it just said Yagi was eating food or something 0_o
maybe it's just this arc ending...and that's all too it...
Anyways here is what I'm leaning towards atm. It was statedSo the Dragons are another race of monsters created at least ~100 years before mainland war went two sided. Which is longer than many speculated meaning the first few prototype Claymores may have been on the island longer than 100 years and only once they where incorporated into the general armies of the MiBs allied nations did the war go full scale and every other nation went either a or b, since before that it would have been a can we appease the dragons and aim there wrath at country x instead of attacking and conquering here. So until the other side really had a chance counter there where no two sides, just one vs many desperate nations states. It could also mean the war flat out started 200 years ago but just didn't spread worldwide until 100 years ago, so the first few nations to oppose the dragons could have had warriors 195 years ago but it took 95 years for these two nations to takeover every minor nation around them in order to gain advantage over the other side (aka an RTS game with no rushs, since we are dealing with feudalistic armies which take long periods of time to solidify control over each nation, after all if you don't keep these conquered nations in check with occupying troops they would possibly rebel) Point is Yagi now has 100 extra years of freedom to set up the 100 year wars backstory.Quote:
I state they where created since how could a naturally evolved race of beings exist, if after x point they went full monster and couldn't revert. Lets face it unless the author came up with some super crazy rule these creature wouldn't give birth to non awakened versions of them whom "could go back". So therefore Dragons are created monsters too... and if they came about 200 years ago one has to wonder how long they took to make and where they did it? Does the Dragonkin have there own "island" somewhere?
Now quickly back to the 100 years before the war went two sided, I'm beginning to speculate that otherside in the mainland war built these monsters somehow and used them to start expanding there territory. However like the current issue the org faces now they needed greater control over the monsters to effectively capitalize on them, since lets face it once they "awaken" they couldn't go back and would logically attack there own side thus weakening them. Worse yet with no natural counter like the ABs it meant they had to pray these monsters just wouldn't turn around and eat there forces or else they'd have to kill them themselves as humans or hope awakening another dragon could weaken it to the point one was dead and the other wounded enough to handle. next off they be fools to use them in large numbers without some sort of natural counter (since we know now that after 200 years they have died from old age and wounds, so clearly they couldn't wait out a dragon them move into it's old lair). Yet they where still clearly effective enough to allow the otherside to expand there empire slowly over 100 years "until the war went two sided". Yet clearly those 100 year only gave the other nations whom feared being the next victims time to eventually capture 2 of these monsters, set up an island base to reverse bio-engineer these monsters and ~100 years ago they created the first Yoma and from the Claymores, whom then awakened and became Awakened Beings.
Now we get into the first tricky part, we know that Clare's accessible power when first becoming a warrior was weaker than Teresa's... so why was that? Could it have been due to the fact she hadn't awakened so since she herself hadn't accessed all her power so she handed down to Clare only part of her power (aka so humanity diluted the power transfer)? Or did it stunt her power but not totally limit it either? or was it just due to the fact the yoma's energy had sycronized with Teresa and when Clare joined in it couldn't fully sycronize with Clare and Teresa (at least until Clare and Teresa merge or some other speculative idea we had upon those lines over the years). It's an interesting question. It effects the above since it makes us wonder how can a monster as powerful as a Dragon only create a creature as pitiful as a yoma, yet this yoma's flesh create a creature as strong as either teresa or priscilla? Something must be limiting the power transfer or at least delaying it taking full effect.
So potentially Dragon's could be at any strength level, also of note the two where very different designs... so we must ask are there more designs or breeds of dragons? and do mixing the flesh of these two effect what type of warrior ability one gets after they go offensive or defensive (so yoki prediction = offensive and yoki manipulation = defensive both result from a the same mixture of flesh between the two)? Or does what power one gets later only reflect a portion of the power one of these dragons has yet there power levels are about the same over all... or are the differences between the two more in the mind and powers and abilities pretty closely linked between the two? or some combination there of, like maybe the Dragons are dumber but tougher skinned but the ABs smarter and can manipulate there bodies more and aren't set to types of dragons but each individual is unique? Well you get the idea... however I want to leave you all on this though both Teresa and Priscilla source of power came from these two monsters flesh, so if those two are stronger then there source monsters how come? Then can the dragons side incorporate this into the Dragons once this source of the powerup is discovered?
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" However the problem here is we can't eliminate much so can we really rule out the dragons can't be stronger than Teresa or Priscilla? Or at least the very old Dragons could be... since...
Back to the war and the time line... so these Dragons have an equivalent of an awakening, thus imply a loss of control. To this I ask do the dragon kins side have an 100 year advantage in learning to how to control their monsters? Would that explain how come Rubel was always one step ahead of everyone? If so did he know what would happen to Clare when she took in Teresa's flesh or at least have a good suspicion already? Yet he only tried to kill her once she partially awakened? Why only then? Was she to be his first choice in how the org would destroy itself? Was she just a tool to gain the trust of the org? or do the Dragons not have any more control of there monsters and Rubel saw her as a way to gain more data for his side too? I suspect the dragons side has at least some more degree of control over there monsters (after all the dragons couldn't create twin warriors since they don't use yoki flesh to sync the minds of the twins, so there control might just be more reliable awakenings, aka there soldiers won't always just awaken by accident but it can happen) if only due to there 100 year advantage in research, but like the cold war so what if you have the better aiming missiles since in the grand scheme of things hitting the target only a mile closer in the scheme of nuclear detonations doesn't really matter much, especially if you aim 50 missiles at one city since 50 near hits still whip the city from the map. Of course the org does have a counter to this advantage and as odd as it may seem, it's the weakest monster of them all, yoma. So sure the dragons don't have to worry as much about there own troops turning on them but they do have to worry about the 100,000 yoma behind there lines eating the villagers that grow up to become those soldiers.
However once again lets look at the above quote.
Well, been a long time since I speculated like that... here is to hoping Claymore continues in some fashion so I can keep doing this, it reminded me why I used to love posting long posts just full of speculations and analyses.
please forgive the tl;dr
Sorry for jumping in without previous notice but a little while ago I was reading Goral's latest post in MiB website in which he let me know the subject of this thread. I haven't read all the stuff you guys wrote, my head is too hot right now, but I have an hipothesis that I don't know if someone had proposed it until now: perhaps the "Claymore end" just means that the claymores like we have known so far have ended there, the claymores youma killers ruled by the infamous Organization. Then now a new story begins... I hope it is only this. Ending the story like that, in chapter 126, would be totally lame.
Great post Ryus. I'll probably try to respond to some things you've mentioned about but no earlier than in 13 hours from now. Let me just comment on this now:
@God Eye Galatea
I also think he's overthinking it, doesn't change the fact it's a very interesting post . And that's what matters. On AS during golden days we've had many such "overthought" posts that's why many people love(d) Claymore.
Last edited by Goral; April 29, 2012 at 12:15 AM.
He used the word "awaken" since it is something Miria familiar with to help her understand what he is talking about better
Rimuto said the 2 bodies in the basement are about 200 years old, it does not imply that the Dragon Kin tribe only came into existence 200 years ago.
For all we know the Dragon Kin Tribe could have always been there, and may be have not involve themselves with others until the war started
I did misread a part tho but still sure if this is correct tho
Rimuto said that the Dragon Kin are a formidable enemy because until their life ends the Dragon Kin don't age and can get stronger. Thus, that's why the organization was so desperate in creating forces to combat them
He also said that once the life of Dragon Kin ends, their bodies deteriorate at a super fast rate
Last edited by God Eye Galatea; April 29, 2012 at 12:16 AM.
Very very good post Ryus....you admittingly speculate alot, but as you say, their really isn't all that much to go on...it's difficult to develop theories past a certain point without further evidence without being a theory on top of a theory on top of a theory (and so on...)...some people end up going so far, that what they are saying doesn't even make sense anymore
I can agree with all this....we'll never truly know until we get more information, but the DoD side, to me, clearly has always been the superior in this fight since the very beginning - even if we agree with the Cold War analogy that Nixl brought up...the Org-side playing 'catch-up' with the DoD's seem like it's always been that way, and they've been desperately trying to reverse-engineer their methods in order to come up with a powerful weapon to oppose them.Quote:
So really, until things got far enough...the DoD's were virtually uncontested for a huge chunk of time -- we're still missing quite a few details, but it certainly sheds light on Revan's beliefs that the DoD's may be even more ruthless then the Org.
.....I'm not sure about this Ryus - the same way it may be possible for warriors and (more likely) Awakened to have children, who would have yoki flowing through their veins and have more natural power/control over their abilities...I think we can at least consider the idea that dragons naturally breed and grow.Quote:
The thing is, to me...as I said before, the Org seems to reverse-engineer and mimic what the DoDs do, but crudely....they're playing a catch-up game - and, although they are getting closer and closer (a controllable weapon like Alicia was a milestone), the DoD's still remain the best in terms of the complete package.'
This idea of playing catch-up could help explain why, with their base-Yoma...creating their own versions of Dragons have started out so weak and pitiful....little by little, from hybrids to Awakened to AO's and then Priscilla..we've seen power rise to godly levels which, more then just being overkill, may have been what the Org has always wanted since the other side has had it already for ages (and could explain why the DoD's have gone uncontested for ages).
To me, I'm starting to believe that the DoD's, actually are completely what the Organization is looking for in their own manner...a creature completely loyal to you, with limited to no personality/sentience or traits in that manner to get in the way, extremely powerful...you could argue about this 'awakening-bit', but Alicia was just a prototype....warriors were always meant to awaken from the start, and controlling an Awakened Being with none of the side-effects is vastly more desirable then a warrior; even one who could go back and forth, or is as strong as Alicia.
The 'Awakening' bit to me, when it comes to Dragons, is merely just a natural part of their growth and nothing to be concerned with (like puberty)...stick that with humans however, and you got all sorts of issues that the Org has been trying to ground out for ages; again, it's why they would be vastly more interested in a controllable AB, then a hybrid...
Now, get an Awakened Being like Priscilla...with her vast power, general apathy (at least her awakened persona), ruthlessness...get an army of her, and you have the Org's golden ticket - more so then just have awesome power on your side, it certainly (off-topic), promotes the idea of the DoD's being that strong which the Org needs something to counter with.
But getting back on track...I've said this last month, but the image-Priscilla is definitely a sign of things...the same yoki-signature is only the start - Dae has big plans, and they all revolve around their "greatest creation".
Could a Dragon be potentially at any level....well....I suppose, but for them, I think it's different - I feel, as you said, the older they get, the stronger they get...the power of Yoma, hybrids, Awakened, AO, Priscila....a dragon may go through all this in their very own life-cycle, from birth to old-age...we see, through their experiments, all this different beings have different power levels, but any and all dragons go through this cycle...again, I feel this fits with the idea of "Awakening" being a natural growth thing for them and not necessarily a bad thing that they 'cannot go back'...their's no side-effects like with hybrids because their is no struggle for them in the first place - for a dragon, it's just part of growing up.
So no, I don't believe their is any loss of control at all...Hybrids have this issue as they grapple with their own humanity and the duality of their nature, but Dragons are naturally one-whole...they are dragons, and not creatures with any implants; their are no experiments with them.
I have no idea what Mutatus means (XD), but, as you've said....the DoD side has already done all their research, and their are no power/control issues with them....A nice parallel is Riful and Isley -- Isley (DoDs) already had his power and strength at full capacity, and Riful (Org) has been trying to level the playing-field and find a power to rival them, and while they've gotten the power, the control is another thing entirely (Raciella).
The Org, I believe, definitely has done more research and expanded beyond the DoD's....because I have a strong feeling that the DoDs haven't advanced in their research after all this time after so many successful generations...the Org are not simply trying to replicate them, but go above them in all ways....Priscilla's exponential growth, as you said, enabled her to fully awaken all her incredible potential power all in one shot and this is something a Dragon cannot do naturally. So in time, I honestly believe the Org could eventually get the upper-hand....the same way the Abyssals slept in their lands, content with their superiority whilst the Org has been toiling away on secret projects to finally kill them...I have a feeling the DoDs haven't been doing further experiments or changing up their methods all that much, because they've gotten used to their own superiority....and, like the Abyssals, after so many ages....who could blame them.
.............OhOriginally Posted by Gooral
....Well, that certainly changes alot of things
Makes me suddenly question everything I just wrote - thanks for nothing Gooral. you monster
Last edited by Shiek927; April 29, 2012 at 12:25 AM.
However I didn't want to speculate too far and start speculating imagined DoD inner working with how they control/direct/manipulate dragons
need sleep get back to you when I can, sorry maybe in the morning before another busy day starts
EDIT: as to Mutatus I meant each AB can mutate into more varieties of beings based on them that reflect the warrior whom awakened when Dragons maybe just different breeds or have different forms at different stages of life... admittedly pure speculation but I just was going off of what I felt.
Last edited by Ryus; April 29, 2012 at 12:35 AM.
Good idea, I know what time it is over there mister...I'm still in Florida, but it's still the east coast after allQuote:
---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 AM ----------
Hmmm....well, in all fairness, we're not multilingual....if you can re-read the dialog more accurately and put it into a better context, then naturally, we have to change everything up.Originally Posted by God Eye Galatea
The Dragon Kin always being there, and the Dragons dissipating super-rapidly.....well, that certainly answers why they couldn't just use Abyssal Eaters on the Dragon-Kin.
At least you confirmed though that they truly do get stronger the older they get...which probably also means nobody has Prissy's exponential growth and probably also means their power-increase overtime is super-slow.
Nah, that makes sense...after all, the Dragons we see in the lab look like Isley/Alicia and Katea...Originally Posted by Ryus
Who's to say that wasn't deliberate?
Who's to say that, in it's own twist, that, as you say....Awakened Beings are like different versions of the different breeds and types of Dragons? reflecting different stages of life in all the many different classes of Dragons?
In a way, it changes the entire outlook of Awakened Beings as a whole...because rather then becoming more monstrous/demonic/etc....the correct label and term, is dragon-esque...the Awakened form is not unlike what a Dragon would look like, minus the human bits.
Their is a ton to think about, but now that we know Dragons are at the very root of the Org's development...then looking at the two, comparing and contrasting, will definitely be what to do next.
Last edited by Shiek927; April 29, 2012 at 12:39 AM.
Was just having fun based on what little I knew... plus I'm going to wait for the English scan to see if I think the text was just dumbed down for Miria since it's hard to imagine natural creatures the size of awakened beings whom reach a point where they all the sudden start acting like all the sudden awakened beings but didn't actually awaken and need to be put into a context where they need to be dumbed down for Miria. It's like saying you start out with puff the magic dragon but one day he'll just choose to eat you, yet after this happened he choose to serve humans at the same time (what does he have a split personality or something or some super hidden objective that even Rubel doesn't care about or can figure out). Or did these monster dragons eat the kings of there country and took control and Rubel just serves monsters who'd just as easily eat him... sorry but no matter how I look at it something there just seems wrong. To me based off our little data either they where created or modified by man and unleashed upon fellow man. For the moment I'm just choosing to look at it as something explainable and K.I.S.S
Anyways I must have a fanboy moment here and ask if when they die and dissipate are there souls absorbed by dovahkiin? Or atleast just leave behind dragon skeletons? Oh yagi, you and your video game references
Now, I really need sleep... I swear this time I'm off to bed
I have heard the raw is already out, but I can't see it.
Can someone post it and make a summaries.
Without having read the whole tread (how did it get so big in one day wort of time?) and probably stating what some of you might already have, I still have to say:
Claymore ending like that? I do not approve. There are tons of unanswered questions.
What are the DoDs?
Why do they fight against the Organization?
What about Clare and Priscilla and X?
What will happen to the warriors and the wanna-be warriors?
Is this island the only one that the Organization made into a weapon testside?
How the hell did they get on that island anymways?
Haven't we read that the people from that island send ships to look for new coasts all came back without having found anything?
The Awakened Beings being related to the DoDs is no big surprise, but, in which way? Did they evolve from them? Have they a common ancestor? Or did the DoDs evolve from the Awakened Beings?
Do the DoDs have something like a human mind or are they just senseless monsters?
And who will be Raki's gf? (Don't you dare to take this one seriously)
The list could be continued for pages. Claymore can't end here. There are only two possibilities that would make sense: It's just, as stated many times, the end of this arc (and hell yes, Miria decapitates Rimuto, woohoo) or there will be a follow up manga. The latter wouldn't make sense to me, however, since I don't care if this Manga is called Claymore, Clare, Applepie or whatever, as long as it feels like Claymore - and even if some of you might say that this is not the case anymore, it still fells claymorish to me. If it actually were to end completely here, a bit of my motivation to get over the month would die. I'd still have One Piece, but Claymore is like ten times better.
/vote Claymore 2
There is something that caught my eyes which I have been thinking of lately but haven't came up with something until now:
I thought of this many times and came up with two theories:Quote:
1- Each one of them creates a type of warriors one Offensive and the other Defensive that way when they ask the warrior (still human at that time) which type of warrior they want to become that is to determine which of the two to use (of course the Yoma is added but the Yoma originated from them) so looking at them
one looks like Alicia and the other like Isley (Shiek just look at the hair style and the body it looks the same as Isley not Katea, although in the body yes Katea looks similar to her).
2- My other theory which I support more is that originate from both but adding different amount from each. I will explain it like this:
a- Lets say the bid head (call it DoD A) is the source of all defensive powers and the small one (call if DoD B) is the source of all offensive powers adding 50-50 will result in a creature neither offensive or defensive but in between
b- making a creature of 70% of DoD A and 30% of DoD B will result in a defensive type warrior who excels in regeneration but yet she can wield the claymore and attack and destroy hard objects but not that high in terms of over all powers.
c- Making a creature 30% of DoD A and 70% of DoD B will result in an offensive type warrior who can reattach tore limbs and regenerate vital organs but can't regenerate limbs and can wield the claymore easily and faster and stronger than a defensive type warrior of the same level and have a special attack or something close to it.
looking into this I believe can solve the question we have been asking ourselves how can they become Offensive or Defensive and with an acceptable explanation other than training (because if so why can't and offensive type train herself to become defensive?).
& Goral about Yoki and stuff I think I came up with the explanation to it but it will take time but more and more I think Yoki as a Claymore differs from ABs and I think I got a theory here.