Neither good, nor bad
The thing is Nixl, is that, with Jean anyway, I found her unique for the very reasons you cite....I'm aware that her mentality is very cliche and stereotypical when compared to many many characters from all sorts of media....but within the context of Claymore, their wasn't anybody else like her or at least the level she acted.
In that sense, that's why I enjoyed her and found her unique....yes, maybe in the wider world of media, her behavior is boring and cliche...but their wasn't anybody else like that in Claymore and, in a land where trust is very important, it must be nice to have someone at your side simply because you saved them one time....I mean, yes, I know that sounds ridiculous (Claire wasn't exactly thrilled), but it's not as if Claymore doesn't go for realism with stuff like this -- there really has been no one else besides Jean who was like this, and I liked that about her.
As for Jean, she also offered her life as a means to stop Claire from awakening/dying as well. Like Raki, she took dedication to the max. In the end, they both served the same function and used the exact same logic that they owed Claire something greater than themselves. Of the two, Jean just died way too prematurely imo.
Furthermore, both Jean and Raki have discussed that Claire should live and/or has a kindred soul despite the cold tough girl demeanor.
In short, they both pushed back against Claire's tough guy mentality to show that she has something to live for and they also prepared themselves to die during Claire's near awakening. I would argue that they are both very similar in terms of personality, except Jean has powers and Raki trolls characters and readers slightly more. If Jean survived, she and Raki could have trolled the ghosts and the readership, but no, obviously Yagi felt we needed more theories involving wedges.
Last edited by Nixl; May 29, 2012 at 08:21 PM.
.....Ehhh......I want to disagree with you, but I can't - your words do have truth, though I do think Jean was the more extremist in those regards...Raki I feel has grown out of this way of being, even though it doesn't seem like their is much evidence to support that; I guess we'll see though where seven years of being on his own, has turned out.
Raki could still turn out to be that way; as awkward as it would be since he really doesn't know any of the Ghosts at all, he could be the one who puts Deneve and other people in their place; he could still fit that role and give "tough guys" a well-deserved dress-down.
*groan, I don't know....I want to argue against you, but I can't find the words - maybe it's just because your words make me feel ".....it that all?" about the characters, and they surely can't be as straightforward as you say...
But even so, I guess the important thing to remember is, that's so bad....because, again, it's a nice change of pace to have characters who are sorted-out and straightforward about themselves and their priorities in this world...I know that seems so simplistic and weird in a story where everything tries to be realistic and complicated and deep....but that's why It's a nice change of pace -- besides, it's all superficial anyway....Raki is one thing, but we nevertheless didn't spend much time with Jean....maybe their is a very good reason why she has this "code" and is the way she is, like everybody else....and if she really doesn't, and that's just how she is, that's not so bad too...because again, it's still a rare thing in this dog-eat-dog world to have somebody who will stick to you like glue just because you saved their life one-time.
It's like Tabitha and so many others....we haven't seen their journey through their eyes, and we don't know what they've been through, yet it's all too likely that their journey has been just as meaningful as anyone else's and that she has skeletons in her closet like everybody else (Cynthia was a surprise)....and even if she doesn't, that's not so bad too because, again, while it may seem simplistic and shallow to have Jean be the way she is and not deep and complicated like everything else.....she's special for those very same reasons - that she's straightforward and will defend you just because you saved her life, one single time.
In that sense, she's actually alot like Claire in many many ways.
Actually, I would say Raki is the most extreme of the two. When Jean put down her life for Claire, she knew it would at least bring Claire back, quid pro quo.
In the Cathedral, Raki gave up his life knowing that nothing would come of it, unlike Jean he could not have known that would save Claire. Furthermore, unlike Jean he could have continued his life, but he chose to die. Against Ophelia, he just bought time and had zero guarantee his death would solve anything. Perhaps worse of all is that I remember Raki stating that he is perfectly okay with Claire abusing him and throwing him away at a moment's notice[citation needed lol, I'll try to reread tomorrow]. To me, those lines are more extreme than anything Jean has said or done. That is basically dehumanizing yourself as merely a tool to another's ambition in a story that pits warriors fighting against the dehumanizing aspects of life.
The story itself seems to setup a internal struggle for Claymores caught between their humanity and being a tool for the organization, yet here you have a human character that willingly sees himself as a tool. In some ways, Raki could be seen as less human-ish than some of the Claymores. I am tempted to say that there is a nihilistic aspect to Raki's actions, but somehow I do not think that fanaticism and nihilism go together lol. In addition, I think I am starting to read a little too deeply into it and for that I am sorry.
edit: Now that I think of it, Raki and Jean are massive hypocrites in a sense. They call out Claire and others for the tough guy act, but are ready to die on a moments notice.
Last edited by Nixl; May 29, 2012 at 09:41 PM.
No no, believe me, you are not reading too deeply.....if anything, with archetypes like these, you are tearing them apart and thinking more on them then the people who make them, love them, and use them do -- their is no proof of that perhaps, but the thing is, with character archetypes, I think you really aren't "supposed" to think about them to deeply because, when you do (like Jean/Raki and their "code"), you realize how unrealistic and ridiculous they are.
I hate using the word archetype to describe the characters as much as I hate bringing up and/or comparing the characters/story to other media, but at the same time, it sort of has to be noticed....Jean/Raki are cliches in the wide world of media, and in a story like Claymore which demands analysis and deep-thinking, of course you are going to look at them too....and when you do, especially with characters like them which are not-so-unique or creative and more "stock", it's easy to pick at how ridiculous they are...because they are not-as unique and more so characters that have simply been added to Claymore that you may see, in one form or another, in any other story.
I am not trying to bash them...like I said, they have traits about both of them that I feel are unique in the Claymore world that set them apart (their straightforwardness and "simplicity"), cliche in the wide world of media or not.....however, it's the archetypes they are based on that's, like all others, when you think about it deep enough....you realize how ridiculous and shallow they are for the very reason they are archetypes with stock personalities and mentalities and not-so unique or realistic with attributes like growth or explanations on why they are the way they are.
Of course, that's all if we don't get those explanations or we're simply dealing with a more average story....Raki has always been the way he's been, which works for him in his own ways, and we never got a possible-explanation for why Jean was so noble and had her "code"....again, it's the archetypes that, when examined, are ridiculous, not the characters...
I'm really not trying to short-change anything...maybe the archetypes, but I don't know...their's alot of viewpoints and I'm aware all sorts of archetypes are fun and cool for all sorts of reasons...maybe I'm just not a huge fan of things being the way they are "just because", or overlooking bad qualities in a character simply because that's the stock archetype they are based on, even if the whole point of the archetype, or any archetype, is that you are supposed to not think too deeply on it and just have fun with it.....and you can indeed of course - it's just in a story like Claymore, again, you are also supposed to think deeply and analyze, archetypes or no.
Starting to feel like I'm saying a whole bunch of nothing, but hopefully something in there was meaningful - as for being tough guys....the thing about Jean and Raki is that they aren't trying to be tough guys when they want to die for somebody, or become human body-shields....it may seem like that way through our eyes as readers, or even characters within the story, but I don't doubt that it's not how they are thinking at all....they are just doing whatever it takes to defend the person they care about above all -- call it simple, call it cliche......but hey, it works for them, and they aren't really complaining.
I hear ya Shieky, I dislike the "archetype" label, but unfortunately for Jean I think she became just that, an archetype. Raki may very well become the same depending on where the story goes.
Nixl, I think you misunderstood something important and that is Raki's relation with Clare is different than Jean's and it is clear at certain times like the cathedral's chapters when he wanted to die with her, it wasn't because he owned like something as you try to convince yourself, it was based on love! Yes love.. Because Raki is doing something normal that people who love each other do and I can give you an example: Sometimes some people go beyond the limits and want to commit suicide and when the person they love fail to convince them other way most likely he/she will join them in their suicide specially if they are blinded with love or have a weak personality. So this is what happened in Raki's case but Jean's case is very different as it was based on friendship and honor and respect, making this the reason why Jean sacrificed herself to help Clare. All I can tell is that you are very angry about the way the plot is moving which in certain areas I have to agree with you but trust me Jean's death did more good to story if you compare it with her survival and how the plot would've changed to even worse! So Yagi isn't using you saved so you own me thing, he is simply letting her personality take over the story not the opposite which is something I like about Claymore as you feel like the characters are living and recorded in a story not the opposite and if this is Jean's personality then what can Yagi do? He chose this personality from the beginning so now he has to pay the consequences and make the plot move just to match their personalities and this is the result.
I have to say that Yagi doesn't use the magic of friendship but he is using teamwork as a strategy for winning which is different. Yes, friendship is there but doesn't mean that it is the main thing behind the plot. He even uses those things like friendships and Raki and many elements just to show us that the Claymores are gentle and human deep inside and not what most people on the island think.
Last edited by littleangel; May 30, 2012 at 03:13 AM.
I am not angry with the plot, I just dislike Deneve, big difference (just had to Deneve fans, just had to)
While it is true there may be a difference in Jean and Raki's relation towards Claire, I do think Raki and Jean share similarities and of the two Raki is more extreme. I know I used the words "owe" a lot, but in essence I was getting at the concept of "you saved me now you own me." Of course the ultimate feeling may be love or honor or none of the between, but in essence I think that describes Jean and Raki for the moment. They were both saved by Claire and whether through love, honor, or friendship have devoted themselves to keeping Claire alive. The feeling, whether it be love or friendship, takes a backseat to the over all reaction towards being saved, which in this case is sacrifice. Claire saved them and they are prepared to sacrifice themselves for it.
I simply disagree, Yagi does have character archetypes in Claymore. Otherwise, how else do we explain all the other Raki and Jean's in stories?
Furthermore, I do not see how Jean's survival would be a worse case scenario. How would it be any different from now where we have Helen and Deneve's personalities in the story? For instance, are you saying that perhaps Jean's personality would overlap with Miria as leader?
On the topic of friendship is magic, I also disagree, but that may very well be because what we term "friendship is magic" is different. What I may consider an instance of friendship magic, you may not. These are moments I would argue are instances of shounen friendship magic,
-Claire returning from her limit in the Cathedral due to Raki
-Claire successfully going over her limit to save Raki from the AB Ophelia tossed him into.
-Claire going berserk against Rigardo and gaining the speed to save Miria. (note the emphasis of her lines was towards saving her friend, not killing Rigardo)
-Jean bringing Claire back despite not have any youki manipulation to the degree of Claire or Galatea.
- Yuma learning Cynthia's healing technique just in time to save Cynthia.
-The whole flying scene between Miria and Hysteria with everyone pulling the strings, etc.
I am going to assume that you would argue that many things in Claymore are a product of teamwork and not just shounen magic, which I agree with to an extent. Where I believe it becomes friendship magic is when characters perform feats outside of of normal capabilities to save a friend. Yuma suddenly learning how to synchronize just in time is a perfect example
Last edited by Nixl; May 30, 2012 at 09:26 AM.
It's gonna be up to all of us individually to decide which is which when it comes to what happens in the story - whether we look at it personally whilst ignoring other things that it can be compared too, or we look at it broader and compare the event to other things in the wider world of media.
In other words, as an example, Raki and Jean....either you look at their behavior and analyze them for what they are, or you take a more casual approach and see them as mere archetypes that you could find in any other story.
It pays to have a bit of both.....I can't stand people who, all the time, act so casual and compare Claymore and everything in it to other stories, media etc, because it feels like they aren't giving it's creativity any credit, or taking it seriously....they just have to act like this expert who knows every story in existence and has to make a comparison ("This sucks because this is just like X story made in X year by X author!"); it feels like they aren't actually into the story, because they just have to make a comparison every five minutes, without seriously analyzing or deep-thinking.
On the other hand, I feel, also, things in the grand scheme of things, like archetypes, should be mentioned sometimes too, even if only to recognize them.....do I like the idea of labelling Raki and Jean as archetypes? No, of course I don't....I don't like labelling anything, in anyway....am I aware that, both of them, in the wider world of media are cliche's that you could find in all sorts of stories? Of course I am......the point is, while I don't like to bring that up, sometimes you need too
If only just to recognize it and see, the thing, in a different light....after all, even if an element that Yagi includes in his story is conventional, sometimes it works really well....Raki and Jean may be cliche in other media, but in Claymore, the archetype they exemplify, in my opinion, really works out for them....so it's not like, everytime some element in Claymore is seen and compared to other media in some way, it's demeaning.....if anything, for these two, it's pretty much a compliment.
To make my point, again.....it pays to try to look at things through both ways....ignoring the wide world of media, and then including it.....it definitely shouldn't be just one or the other (though if I had to pick, it would be better if someone didn't make comparisons as much as someone who did)....because again, sometimes it helps to make you see things in a new light and, just because other stories are brought up, or how Yagi crafts his story in comparison to other people (such as if something he is doing, is actually a cliche and not necessarily something unique to his story, even if it's unique in the story, like Raki and Jean's personalities/archetypes), doesn't mean that it's being done in a disrespectful way.
And no, nobody dislikes Deneve.....we're just sick of her Dr.Deneve ends-justify-the-means supposed Yagi-mouthpiece persona crap....she's suddenly elevated herself to this high position and needs more then just a punch to bring her back down...after busting down doors and talking down to both of her commanders and friends around her, she's had it coming for quite awhile.
I mean seriously, she seems to enjoy it...but when was the last time somebody put her in her place? I hope Tabitha's punch was only the beginning -- I've grown to like her more and more overtime, but she needs an attitude-adjustment.
Last edited by Shiek927; May 30, 2012 at 12:39 PM.
Well to tell the truth, I think you are reading too much mangas and stories and you are thinking too much to make cross links between them and began to forget the plot development of the story and how it all started which I will try to make it short but lets take Raki as an example:Quote:
Raki's relationship with Clare started because of Clare not Raki, because of Clare's past and how she and Raki have the same past with a brother killing you family and a Claymore saving you from him while your Yoma brother is crying. So Clare brought him with her because she didn't want him to end up like her so she even did something better than Teresa and skipped the cat and mouse part and let him join her in her journey. So as you can see it wasn't about Raki is owned to Clare because she saved him thing but as the story developed Raki started to have feeling (if not from the beginning) to Clare but it was just in his heart, but it was clearly shown when he wanted to die with her at that time which is something you can get easily. As for Raki trying to become stronger was simply part of becoming her prince in shining armor (Childish but ) and so the plot moved on with them.
Jean developed from a different story and different circumstances but the idea of development of the their story is the same which is different from the bases of Raki but indeed has the thing you saved you own but didn't come from Clare but Jean herself which is different.
I will tell you how.. but first lets talk about the inevitable in the story after Pieta:Quote:
1- Clare's survival
2- The ghosts dividing and each going to an area (Miria's plan)
3- Clare meeting Priss
4- Miria heading toward the Org. alone.
So keeping all of this mind let us talk now:
What do you think Jean can add it she replaced Tabitha for example? I will tell you mine:
1- Jean will go with Clare to the west where there there is a high chance that she sacrifices herself for Clare to save her form Priss.
2- If this didn't happen the worst scenario will happen when Miria gets defeated and she with the rest head back to Robona to form the team to save Miria. Here Jean will weaken the team because she will be the leader due to the fact that she will be the strongest of the remaining ghosts, probably resulting in inability to save one of Anastasia's team or fatal injuries to her team. More than that, they will arrive even more late to save Miria which could result in her awakening and who knows if she will not attack them and not get killed by Hysteria. So after all of this you say she is not bad to the story and the survival of the ghosts??
She is a bad leader which resulting in the death of all her team! Yes I am a fan but the truth can't be kept untold because I am a fan.
The only magic in the manga is that Clare's friends have a less chance of death not anything else. The rest is clearly shown are capable of dying any minute and if you need convinsing just look at the Destroyer's arc: Riful, Dauf, Alicia, Beth, Raphaela, the AFs, Hellcats and even the villagers were killed in that chapter and you all Claymore going soft? If any Yagi is just keeping the ones with importance for the plot and killing the rest, so don't think that the rest will remain like this untouched.Quote:
Really?! you consider this friendship based not plot based?? Ok, lets clear things about this part..Quote:
First Clare's first half awakening was due to the fact that she doesn't want to lose Raki or killing him so she pulled herself to limits that she could never accomplish and controlled the flow of Yoki and returned it to normal. The second one is very different because she did it before and even Deneve proofed it can happen successfully so shouldn't her?
As we all know, Clare first became a warrior just to take revenge because Priss took away everything she loves and here Rigardo did the same not only Jean but Flora who just became her friend! So yeah she will be pissed off and Miria was on the next list so she was desperate and desperate people do everything including going over the limits of their thinking just for their loved ones.Quote:
This is the same as before but I can give you a better example: Fringe. Watch it and you will find that Olivia can only activate her powers only in one condition and this condition Walter was able to figure out (it wasn't happiness, fear, anger or being scared) but being afraid of losing your loved ones or them getting hurt. So when Jones risked the life of the people she loves she was able to activate her powers and stop the bomb, travel between dimensions and even activating the powers of the other cortexiphan test subjects. And this proofs that desperate people can do what so thought impossible.Quote:
Ok you win in this one..Quote:
Don't worry, I don't use the same method twice with same person. So if you are not convinced by teamwork I try to find something else.Quote:
---------- Post added at 12:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------
& Shiek, I agree with you but I like to add this: Sometimes you can't just say this is the story and I hate it because one chapter didn't match my expectations or even a couple because this is an unfinished story and it will keep going and unless you read it all you won't get why this survived and why this didn't.
....Well obviously, that would be stupid -- it's all too common, of course, but if you suddenly like or dislike a story, in should be because of an overall trend.....if you like or dislike a story based on one single chapter, I question just how invested you were in it in the first place.Quote:
It's all personal - to me, it feels silly to dislike a work I was barely invested in, because I obviously wasn't into it enough to get a real impression of it....people who rush through media, getting their ideas about it by looking at one or two episodes/chapters/etc, or worse, simply from listening or hearing from other people....that's just silly - they aren't really getting into any of those works.
For some people, they can just say this is media, but that's just hypocritical and basically admitting that nothing is really worth getting into that deeply at all.....point blank, you need to have an informed opinion to make an opinion...you can't be critical about a work you were never really invested in the first place - otherwise, you may miss out on something incredible, and make yourself look stupid.
Of course, for many many people, this is exactly what happens - they drop out of something because of one incident, follow the crowd, etc.....again, those people were never really invested in a story in the first place, so in a way, their opinion doesn't hold that much weight anyway.
Last edited by Shiek927; May 30, 2012 at 08:31 PM.
(There was no gif for "I tip my hat to you sir")
Last edited by Claymore1; May 30, 2012 at 08:56 PM.
Mine was Fred Savage.
I think yours was one of the Jonas brothers