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---------- Post added at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------
If using KB was as dangerous as you said then using KB at all during sage mode would be plain stupid which is not the case. The explanation of the fusing does not suggest ma and pa have to constantly give energy either, they simply say they take care of the not moving part and concentrating of gathering natural energy. More so, if whats makes you think using KB would be in itself dangerous? When a sage uses KB the clone is in sage mode too. In that regard, it is quite clear sage chakra also gets evenly distributed among clones otherwise clones made by a sage would not be in sage mode nor would they be able to use sage techniques. The manga never even hinted at such a danger of using shadow clones either, it simply explicitly stated that naruto using more than 2 or 3 clones during the fight would interfere with the clones currently gathering chakra out of which the only logical inference is that they for some reason will have trouble gathering energy.
And yes, you do need skill, since it is still an A rank jutsu. Skill is required to actually make those clones durable, again Kakashi did that bluff on the bridge, those were Kage Bushins, yet would've they be able to attack? I doubt so.
If Jiraiya could've used tons of clones he would've do it.
Huge rasengan uses Sage Chakra. If Jiraiya uses it, he'll lose Sage Chakra and be one step closer to going back to Sage Mode. It's like when Naruto used FRS, he used up too much Sage Chakra.
Why wouldn't he? He showed no signs of being low on Sage chakra when he did a bunshin, both (or just the bunshin) even did a fire attack. Doesn't look like insufficient chakra would be a problem, nor balancing it since the clone didn't look any different. Making too many bunshins could cause some bunshins to go back to base mode, but we don't know how many is too many.Quote:
You don't have evidence that Jiraiya can't do multiple bunshins in Sage Mode either. If Naruto can do it, why can't Jiraiya? Naruto actually had no help, Jiraiya does.
Hiruzen used the bunshins to seal away the two hokage's souls. Apparently bunshins can be used for fighting, but it depends on its users. Naruto and Madara used it for fighting, Kisame and Zabuza use it to trap their enemies if they need to, and Itachi uses it to distract or take out his enemies quickly.
We've seen Naruto not be able to make rasengan with one hand, and himself admit he couldn't do it. That comparison doesn't work. We have never seen any indication about the amount of SM bunshins Jiraiya can do in SM, so no one is right or wrong so far. I don't see how it's absurd when we saw Jiraiya do a kage bunshin that looked like him, who was able to do a fire attack.Quote:
Jiraiya doesn't have to do 100 bunshins like Naruto can, 5 or 10 can work.
Lot of things in fights are assumptions. We make it based on what we've seen from the fighters. Although we haven't seen Jiraiya do more than one kage bunshin, we did see him do a kage bunshin that looked like him, do a ninjutsu.Quote:
Naruto's uniqueness comes from how he uses his bunshins, not from his ability to make lots of it. Anyone with enough chakra can do that. Kakashi was able to do at least 5 against those mercenaries in the first arc, Hiruzen was able to do two in his old age, and Kisame was able to do three. Only Naruto and Kisame have the chakra to spam bunshins, but Naruto is able to do use it creatively.
And once again, hints don't matter. Jiraiya was never hinted to know kage bunshin, but he knew it. Hiruzen was said to have low chakra and not be able to afford using kage bunshin, but he made two kage bunshins. It doesn't take perfect chakra control to do a bunshin, but it takes a lot of chakra to do multiple kage bunshins. Still doesn't prove me wrong.
Naruto used tajuu kage bunshin less than a day after mastering it, so it doesn't take years, just chakra and knowledge.
Though Jiraiya hasn't shown it, it can still be assumed he has the ability (or that he doesn't), unless the manga states that sensing is an automatic ability. It'd be contradictory since Naruto, who was able to sense Kakashi's chakra missing from the village, wasn't able to sense Hungry Ghost.
For all we know jiraiya went through pretty much the same training as naruto when it came to gathering natural energy. If anything, learning how to gather natural energy on his own is a prerequisite for him to be able to fuse with ma and pa. I don't think we should assume that on his own he would last significantly less than naruto in that regard. And why would the clones be useless? Granted, their sage mode would not last as long due to the sage chakra being split however in most cases there is no need for clones to last that long. In a worst case scenario, if their sage mode lasts at least a few minutes and they are able to use techniques (which is not unreasonable at all considering jiraiya is indeed a very high chakra capacity ninja) they would be extremely useful. Even without sage mode jiraiya is still absurdly skiled, such a clone can never be useless lol.
The hard part is not to draw it in. Its balancing it. Naruto's clones where in battery mode. Also JMan's problem was with this balancing not the drawing in part:
You also need insane amounths of chakra to do it:
JMan separting his chakra into bits is going to be a big problem when he needs to balance the natural energy coming from Ma/Pa.
Now of coruse you still failled to give me any evidence of it. JMan going from 1 clone to multiple clone needs some evidence. 1 clone for Naruto is enough to restore him to SM:
As this dude here explains it focusing sage chakra is not easy:
So Naruto could do that from 2 clones at the same time and was limited to 3 clones. JMan doing that from 1 place (himself in battle as Ma/Pa feeds him chakra) would defenetly be limited to 6 clones even if he could do it on Naruto's level. Naruto is curently somehow getting huge amounts of chakra and then balancing it and this makes sense as his chakra supply is out of this world (for obvious reasons). Now take into account JMan's problem(imperfect SM from his balancing) and you decrese that number even more as his chakra balancing was worse then Naruto's. So even IF we asume he can do that he probably can't do more then let's say 4 or so. Still going to need evidence that JMan can split his chakra 4 ways and stay in SM and use huge rasengans as him balacing all that crep out is going to be an insane chalange. Also need feats from him actualy fighting with clones. Naruto is a master with tactics like that and those where developed in time. JMan could just trow away chakra trying to fight like that, something like Naruto vs Kimimaro.
The problem is not creating the clones. Is create them in SM, fighting with them on Naruto's level and having the ability to spam them like Naruto. If Jman can't spam them its not going to help him at all. 3 clones are going to counter 3 Naruto's clones at best and then he get's overwhelmed by the rest of 90+ clones. He sure as hell is not going to have time to do more clones. Also using Ultimate Rasengan with all the clones and himself is going to be another point to be proven as JMan could run out of chakra.
Also i don't need evidence that JMan can't do it, you need to provide evidence that JMan CAN do it.
The rasengan and other types of jutsus where used to show you that diferent techs work diferently for people. Just because JMan can do it does not mean he actualy can do it on Naruto's level.
PS. The only helping hand Ma/Pa gives is feeding him raw natural chakra so he does not need to move. The hard part that those clones are doing in the form of balancing is still there as much as it is for Naruto, the frogs just remove the need to sit still.
Last edited by xXan; April 18, 2012 at 01:37 AM.
Hizuren wasn't supposed to do KB since not because he had little stamina, not only at least, but also because due to his elder age he risked doing Kage Bushins and lose control of the jutsu, thus wasting 2/3 of his chakra.
Which, with his stamina, would be suicidal, expecially against Oro.
Already explained to kkck, for all we know all those clones did was punch the guy and disappear.
Good luck on beating 100 clones of Naruto and Kabuto with a punch lol.
More so that since Naruto mastered Frog Fu and Kabuto has his annoying scalpels, hand-to-hand they are imho superior to Jiraiya.
We saw also with the manga progressing that Naruto mastery over Kage Bushins improved exponentially, that is a fact. And arguing that Naruto learned the jutsu in some hours isn't a proof that the jutsu is easy, is a proof that Naruto learns quickly when he is focused.
Proven by the fact that he learned the Rasengan in, like, 2 weeks
He never had the mastery Naruto has with Sage Mode, and Fukusaku commented on that. In a normal scenario no, they wouldn't be useless, they are against Kabuto and Naruto, that can nullify them easily.
Simple as that
This would be an interesting battle, but I believe Naruto has more chances to win because
*He has the greatest stamina and chakra, thus he can endure
*He is no doubt, the best Shadowclone user in the manga
*He is a perfect sage
He is imo fitting for this match because of these reasons.
Kabuto won't have the luxury imo to even call out EDO because these two (especially Jiraiya) have strange techs that can instantaneously trap Kabuto.
It depends if JMan can get the "frog song" genjutsu on or not. If he does not i will go with Naruto as a huge Rasengan in SM would defenetly do damage to Kabuto even in water mode. The bijudama from Bee left Suigetsu KO'ed and that was an attack that was spread out and not like a rasengan that would focus mose of it attack in a smaller area. Rasengan = Bijudama only smaller. So a few of those and Kabuto is out.
Hard fight but i think Naruto can pull a win. Oh end i am ignoring the ET zombies from the OP as it would be to much of a headache to account for all possible ET that Kabuto could pop. Also Naruto and JMan don't have any practical sealing jutsus so yeah...