To be honest I don't see why jiraiya would be limited in his clone usage (not that spamming those is something he would do normally). The clones would indeed not be capable of gathering natural energy as the clones are of jiraiya, not ma and pa however that only means jiraiya distributes his available natural energy among them. The only limitation I could see in that regard is that if he makes too many clones they might not have enough natural energy for them to remain in said sage mode. In any other aspect, having ma and pa gathering natural energy should actually increase his clone making capacity as natural energy helps replenish his stamina.
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I would argue mizu bushin and kage bushin are not actually comparable in any form. Kage bushin is an actual copy of the person with the capacity to make decisions, use ninjutsu and whatnot. An element bushin simply looks like the original but has no mind of its own (except perhaps mokuton clones but even then they should be more limited than KB) and is limited to the element it is made of.Quote:
The clones are actually connected, the reason naruto cannot use more than 3 clones while they are gathering sage chakra is that it would interfere with them gathering said chakra, that is unquestionable manga fact. If there are no clones gathering chakra then there is not a shred of evidence to even vaguely suggest there would be a limit to how many clones naruto can make (unless of course the amount of sage chakra he has is evenly distributed between clones and they have so little left they can't maintain sage mode however that is not what you guys are saying nor what is being discussed ).
There has never been any evidence that any type of clone other than shadow clones act on their own though, the manga has only mentioned shadow clones doing that. As far as the manga has shown, all of the other types of clones have to be directly controlled (somehow).
He shouldn't be limited though because someone else is gathering the Energy for him. With Naruto, it was still himself gathering the energy. Based on that, it should be possible for Jiraiya to do multiple bunshins. Plus, Ma and Pa might not be continuously gathering Natural Energy, just when Jiraiya needs it.
I can give you hypothesis as yo why but how relevant would that be? For one what if he can't concentrate on them (like Naruto using more then 3 when he has other getting energy?) because his SM is imperfect and he can barely keep the conection going from him to Ma/Pa and using clones would mess him up. We don't know what senjutsu chakra does to your body and perhaps JMan using more clones with his imperfect SM would be a problem, expecialy asuming he can use huge rasengans with them... I can give you a lot of "why" but in the end is just fanfic.
What if he does not have the senjutsu capacity to do so? So i know he has the ability to create A clone, can he do more then 1? Can he fight like that? Can he spam them? Can he use huge rasengans with them? I need evidence sry. In this entire Manga only Naruto was showed to fight like that and now Madara as he has those special wood clones. The others only used them as distractions, traps (like Kisame) and so on.
So, you belive he can create them on that number? Provide evidence as he has NEVER done it. If none is provided and you keep going with it i can asume Naruto can do Rasengan with 1 hand as JMan can do it and its the same tech right? Hell Naruto knew how to summon but he could not do it right and those little frogs poped up. Even SM is the same jutsu as Naruto's but JMan can't do it right even with Ma/Pa there... So again just because its the same jutsus it does not mean he can use it to the same level. Now if there is no evidence i will be ignoring it. Naruto's usage with multiple clones is something unique to him. Its the most unique thing in this manga (probably). We know that the same jutsus works diferently for multiple people. Even MS genjutsu and Amaterasu EVEN IF they are the same jutsu. So asuming JMan can do the same thing with SC jutsu as Naruto is absurd considering there is absolutly no evidence of it. Only 1 clone and as a short distraction, nothing more.
So asumin JMan can create multiple clones, with huge rasengan(and other SM jutsus) and keep spaming them is just that, an asumtion.
Last edited by xXan; April 17, 2012 at 01:18 AM.
I believe ppl forgot just how exceptional Kage Bushin is.
It is not simply a clone jutsu. It is effectively a replication jutsu, not that different from the Mokuton Bushin, which replicates the user down from cellular level ( I don't doubt that Kage Bushin derives from it, actually).
Kage Bushin pratically recreates a perfect, perfect replica of the user.
Neji, one which insight in the chakra pathway is so great to see 361 tiny dots in it, commented that he couldn't tell Naruto apart from his clones since they are downright identical in everything, even chakra capacity since the user chakra is split equally.
It is by all means a living body, and the more empowered it is with chakra, the more resilient it gets, as proven recently when the clone survived even a meteor, thanks to Rubber Guy no less but was all tattered and wasted.
Doing Kage Bushins isn't as simple as doing normal bushins, again we'll go with part 1, in part 1, despite not having the most chakra out of everyone and having terrible contro, Naruto was able to make 100 KB.
Now go back to part 2. Kakashi, which chakra control was, like, years ahead the Naruto in part 1 and having decent, more than average chakra reserves said that he couldn't handle even 1 KB to halve his training.
You know another one who uses one clone?
If any of you believe that Kono >= Kakashi in chakra capacity, then we are not reading the same manga.
Saying that Jiraiya can make 100 clones in Sage Mode only because he knows the jutsu and has the reserve is like saying that he can make a Doton or Katon rasengan because he knows the jutsu and has the element.
It is a matter of skill, nobody except Naruto and Madara ( so Hashirama probably ) never ever was hinted to be able to make more than one or two clones to act as decoys, even if they don't lack in chakra capacity like SM Jiraiya did.
It isn't simply that easy, and Naruto can pull it off since he used Kage Bushin continuosly for, like, 4 years
Naruto has been pulling off taju kage bushin since a few seconds after he learned kage bushin, we saw that when he defeated that rogue teacher in the first chapter. He did not need 4 years of continuous training to be able to use TKB. You don't need skill to create an army of clones, you need solely a butload of chakra.
@xXan and M3J,
Yea, I was basing most of my arguments from memory so the details are a little off. But the point is that Jiraiya failed to show any signs of having
spidersage sense, or at least no where near the level of Kabuto and Naruto. Asura Pain was able to completely sneak up on him, and I can't see how that can happen if he did have sage sense. Its an inconsistency created by Kishi because its a newly introduced power and I can't give Jiraiya new sage abilities every time Kishi introduces them for somebody else. He has to show he can have them first. Sage mode is simply learning how to absorb and use natural energy. All the senjutsus, sage sense, etc. are learned skills. Perhaps Jiraiya simply did not learn sage sense or adapted to it yet, but he failed to show that he has it.
IMO a successful hit of FRS should be able kill Kabuto seeing how it's attacking the cells. Him changing shape and all shouldn't protect him against that chirurgical level of attack. The thing is, thanks to Kabuto's strategy, no one is supposed to kill him before forcing him to release the ET. Jiraiya sure has a great genjutsu but nothing that should allow him to order Kabuto to end the ET.
If Kabuto's opponents don't care about ET and decide to take care of that later it's another story. Besides I don't think Kabuto could swim without dying in a sea of special lava made by Jiraiya+Pa/Ma. But that doesn't prevent him to summon Deidara to fly away.
Last edited by chilibun; April 17, 2012 at 12:54 PM.