As Smoker and Tashigi were talking about a leak in the inside of G-5, CC mentioned "Joker". So it seems just conclusive to assume Joker to be the guy in G-5. However I have trouble imagining someone of CCs calibre, a man full himself with pride as as scientist working for a simple guy in G-5.
Considering Fleet Admiral and Admirals resident in MHQ, it is safe to assume the one in charge of G-5 has to be a Vice Admiral. Therefore I believe Smoker is in charge of G-5 outpost. So the traitor in G-5 must have less authority than a VA (Smoker) within the WG. As such I don't think he is the mastermind of the conspiracy. The guy in G-5 seems just like CC another pawn of the real mastermind, who I think is Vegapunk.
The name "Joker" could be also just a alias for Vegapunk. CC and the traitor in G-5 could be working individually for Joker without knowing each others existence. Basically the conspiracy is build like cells. Of one cell goes down, the other won't be compromised. So Vegapunk (Joker) could be using some sort of voice changer device to hide his true identity from other. As such even though CC knows Vegapunks voice, he wouldn't be able to reorganize it. So even if CC is captured by the marines, there wouldn't be any leads to Vegapunk. Even more a perfect cover since CC and Vegapunk share a rivalling argument.
Last edited by BlackHair; May 06, 2012 at 11:50 AM.
But isn't it already being hinted by Oda that Vegapunk, even though under the World Government, is a good man? That's what I got from when Franky got to Baltimore and learned that Vegapunk did all sorts of experiments for his frozen country to feel warmth but unfortunately, the time itself doesn't suit his knowledge. And now this thing with CC, taking the whole blame for the island's (now Punk Hazard) destruction with its people to save his colleague's face. Unless there's more into things, it's clear to me that Vegapunk is on the good side.
I still can not make up my mind whether Vegapunk will be an antagonist or not. Prior to Punk Hazard most of his known innovations have been benign, with the exception of the pacifista. His work with Seastones and research into Devil Fruit have military aspects, nothing exceptionally sinister though. The revelation that he preformed chemical weapon experiments on live subjects does give me pause. There is still a chance that the experiments on prisoners were done by CC, without the approval of Vegapunk.
vegapunk created kuma,who became a revolutionary. I doubt he did so by accident,vegapunk is somehow an ally,imo. and since CC is the bad one,who wanted to blacken Vegapunk's name,hence Punk's a good man. btw,I don't understand how joker can be more important than CC: unless he is doflamingo's boss,I can't but think he is just a bastard marine,as was Nezumi.
Nothing about CC suggests mastermind. He seems like the pawn, being manipulated by Joker and his allies. CC feels like a one off villain, not one of great importance. His only purpose will be to introduce more important villains, whether Joker or whomever Joker answers to.Quote:
Vegapunk seems to important to have anything to do with the conspiracy at Punk Hazard. I can't imagine someone so venerable having any need to take part in what is probably a local, petty little conspiracy.Quote:
---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------
Kuma was not a cyborg created by Vegapunk who joined the revolutionaries; he was a revolutionary who joined the Shichibukai and volunteered to be turned into a cyborg. You got the timeline backwards. Kuma was a revolutionary twelve years before Impel Down, according to Ivankov, his former comrade. Sometime after he left the Revolutionary Army and became a Shichibukai. Only recently did he take part in the Pacifista program, the modifications only being completed shortly before the Battle of Marineford. As recently as Thriller Bark he retained his own personality. He was formerly a pirate so cruel he was known as "The Tyrant". It can be presumed his revolutionary activity remains unknown to the government, though that can not be confirmed.
Back then Flamingo stated his only reason to stick with that guy was his influence within the WG. Vegapunk as smart as he is, should have great influence in the WG. Simply because with his gifted mind he is essential for the military forces. Also Flamingo knew about Kumas deal with Vegapunk, as he explained Kumas issue to Ivankov at the marineford war. On top of that Flamingo was shown trying to kill Moria with Pacisfistas, the work of Vegapunk.
Furthermore the name Vegapunk has been mysterious since post CP9 Saga. So why create another mysterious character? wouldn't it be better if both were the one and same? So at this point I think the mysterious man with Flamingo was indeed Vegapunk.
It is very true that he has no real trace of evil actions so far. But neither any good. He has been rly mysterious, ever since his name was dropped. I personally think he has his own agenda. Like for instance overthrowing the Gorusai from within. He might be a evil version/split of the revolutionaries. Just guessing here, but I think he has certainly a agenda which will shake the world a for sure.
It is very true that there are no known connection between Flamingo and Vegapunk, but at the same time Vegapunk is a mysterious character. There are no real information on him besides his work. So because of that, he could be easily the guy with Flamingo.
btw I don't think the 7 Gods have direct access to the Gorusai, I think they need to report to Kong.
1. i dont think joker is vegapunk...i agree with the notion that vegapunk is somehow an ally in the future than an enemy...and if i may add, its because i want ussop's kabuto to get a devil's fruit LOL...seriously, the implications of the story points out that vegapunk is not evil, clown is not under vegapunk and joker is above clown...which eventhough he is inside the marine system, its hard to say he is actually a marine....thats why im thinking it is doflamingo himself that is joker
2. correct me if im wrong...but isnt G-5 became the new marineford??? meaning it is the new MAIN BASE of the marine...so its safe to assume its not just a vice-admiral (smoker) who rules there.....its gonna be akainu who is the head in G-5. (and gorousei are in mariejois)....another thing, smoker and tashigi unlcoking the anomalies of marine system one by one (as for this time, the traitor thing) adds to my old theory that they will defect soon.
3. i also dont think joker wont appear to punk hazard...but he will appear on this arc (or saga)...and he wont just appear. the characters will actually go to his territory...because i really think joker is the main villain here.
just a thought...
in cards ...the hidden card is joker and in tarot cards, the "0" card is fool/jester (joker)....im just thinking its like Mr. 0 persona of crocodile in alabasta.
and some random thoughts (pretty crazy i know)...tarot card (major arcanas) assignations for this arc...and meanings (i grouped its positive and negative representations)
the character switching also reminded of the "reverse" effects of the tarots...dont know why it seems to me that this arc is tarot based as soon as the characters (especially joker) was presented....
0-Fool - JOKER/LUFFY (void, unknown, infinite, blind faith, constant change of mind, rash decisions)(simplicity, innocence,spontaneity, new life cycle)
1-Magician - KINEMON (confusion,hesitation, inability to use skills)(risk taking, self discipline, recognize potential, initiative)
2-Priestess - ROBIN (suppression)(intuition, wisdom, mystery)
3-Empress - NAMI (domestic problems, uncertainty)(abundance, motherly, wealth)
4-Emperor - SANJI (immaturity, weakness,loss of composure)(competitiveness, self control, responsibility)
5-Hierophant - CHOPPER (distortion of truth, rejection of values)(need to learn, education)
6-Lovers - TASHIGI (contradiction, indecision, deception)(intuition, commitment, decision)
7-Chariot - MONET(disregard for others, envy,imbalance)(ambition, overcoming life's struggles, keen observation)
8-Strength - ZORO (inability to act, power used wrong)(courage, controlled strength,resolve, optimism)
9-Hermit - SMOKER (isolation, groundless suspicion, refusal to hear advices)(caution, calmness,planning, guide, reflection)
10-Wheel - BROWNBNEARD (bad luck, resistance to change, halt or delay)(coincidence, luck, change)
11-Justice - AKAINU (inequality, injustice)(clarity, fairness)
12-Hanged Man - AOKIJI (selfishness, lack of commitment, laziness, disconnection)(transformation, flexibilty)
13-Death - BROOK (unpleasant transition)(major change, ending to begin a new one)
14-Temperance - MONET (conflicting interest, disagreement)(cooperation, diplomacy)
15-Devil - CEASAR CLOWN(lust, sexual obssesion, abuse, uncontrolled ambition, blackmail, evil)(security, good calculation of ambition and dream)
16-Tower - TRAFALGAR LAW (restriction, imprisonment)(dramatic loss and disturbance that leads to self realization)
17-Star - CYBORG FRANKY (self-doubt, stuborness)(hope, protection, confidence, vigour)
18-Moon - USSOP(secrecy, lie, trickery, desperation)(imagination, impression)
19-Sun - VEGAPUNK (miscalculation, failure)(joy, discoveries, approval)
20-Judgment - THE KIDS (stagnation, guilt, fear of change)(renewed health, vitality, attainment, awakening)
21-World - COOL BROTHERS (frustration, unsatisfactory)(accomplishment, completion)
Last edited by beck26; May 06, 2012 at 02:33 PM.
I can't imagine him without a labcoat, so nothing indicates him to be the guy with Doflamingo at Mary Joa.
---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------
Somehow, I think Vegapunk is gonna be the person who reveals how Devil Fruits work.
Im not desperately clinging onto a certain idea without looking at the facts in a neutral view. Nor Im desperately wishing for my idea to come true. Im not one of those desperate fans, I only believe in manga facts. As for now there are no solid facts for either possibility.
Now because my idea is based on little strings, Im not gone argue, after all Im not even confident myself. Both character are mysterious as for now, I just put them together, like hitting two birds with one stone. Furthermore I want Vegapunk to be more than just a scientist. Having a rly smart man as a antagonist might be refreshing and thrilling. I wouldn't mind having him as an ally either. Either way, I just want him to be more than just a smart guy on the side lines. His character has a lot of potential.
( I haven't read the whole Vegapunk discussion yet. just sayin' ;D )
I'm going to be dissapointed in Oda if Vegapunk (VP?) turns out to be a "Strawhat good guy" and is forced to work for the WG or any like that.
Yes, Vegapunk is probably a good guy, but he should still be on the marine side, like Coby and Aokiji is. However it wouldn't be a problem to see him as a bad guy.
on another note.. Isn't it just nice how the good guys are actually the bad guys (pirates) while the bad guys are actually the good guys (marines)? ;p
Anyone remember when CC sayed that he want to proove that he is no 1 scientist int the world to WG And on top that he is reciving orders from g1... Doesn't tHat kinda make it obvious who is behind this plot...
Whom are you talking about? A marine, an WG official, the guy Doflamingo was talking about? Don't you mean G-5, as G-1 is just the former HQ. This topic has been talked through this week, so before you restart the discussion anew, skim through the pages a bit please.
Last edited by Schabrak; May 07, 2012 at 09:51 AM.
I wanted to say that wg is obviously behind those experiments and name joker can as wll be codename for new admiral...
Either way he is relying orders to CC. Everything so far has been leading to this concussion. Everything else has been either speculation without facts or hypothesis. Although plausible none of them had real basis in facts. And yes i meant g5.
The WG is not obviously behind the experiments, it may be a faction or a single person with his own agenda, but nothing indicates it to be the heads of the WG or an admiral himself. It's you who is basing it on no clear facts here.