Manga News: Check out these new manga (5/18/15 - 5/24/15).
New Forums: Visit the new forums for Boku no Hero Academia!
Forum News: Cast your votes to determine the best parent in the Anime Showdown.
Nope, Hatus is no synonym of Nen Technique. Hatsu is a school, which completely different. Beware because there lies the mistakes (There was a HUUUGE discussion on this forum about Nen which had many interesting point of views. There is Level Believers and No Limit Believers, me belonging the last one which implies some other things as well. I highly recommend to read that thread completely in order to understand the deepness of the concept of Nen created by Togashi. Linkie)
But Killua seems to imply so, at the Greed Island selection exam. Tsezguerra asks them to show their Ren, and he asks if he could show Hatsu instead.
It would be better to just say if he "could use a Nen technique" or something, though. If Hatsu really has only that meaning, then it would Killua would just show "a Nen school", which is just something weird to say.
Whatever nen technique you made even if you have more than one, the aura used for these techniques fall under Hatsu category, go back to Wing's explanation i'll quote him "Hatsu is the technique consisting of releasing the nen" in other words it gathers all the important aspects of nen and splits them into the 6 known group (reinforcement, materialization, etc..)
red these (buttom left panel) http://www.mangareader.net/207-14057...hapter-48.html
and this http://www.mangareader.net/207-14069...hapter-60.html
Hatsu is which of the 6 schools you belong to where as Nen Technique is how you apply the different schools to create your special ability. I thought the confusion came from the Japanese word "Hatsu" can actually mean both things depending on how you write it.
As for Goreinu, he almost has to be emission as his nen beasts were separated from his body. He has to manipulate them from a distance. Besides Kurotopi, we have not seen any materialization user really be separated a significant distance from their object. And, Kurotopi seems to be 100% non-battle oriented with the added restrictions of only materializing things he touches with a time limit and no special properties. Obviously this does not include Kurapika who can only use Judgement Chain with Emperor Time (granting him the emission exception).
Many people use Knov as an example of Materialization users separating from their aura, but each door is always connected to his materialized object, the mansion. The biggest question about Knov is we have no idea where the mansion is and how it connects to him as Materialization users almost always have to be in contact with their object.
Knuckle is a confirmed Emission user. He lends his aura (which means it separates from the body). Potclean is definitely materialized, but because Potclean does not really do anything other than calculate and he has the lending aura restriction, the materialization is most likely simple for Knuckle.
Morau is probably a manipulator whose secondary type is emission. Yupi and Netero are definitely Enhancers.
Go back to Kurapika's teacher saying Enhancement has the best balance. I believe that Kastro creating a clone could only be done by an Enhancer as it requires everything but Transformation. He materializes another person, manipulates that clone, and that clone has to use Kastro's aura as well that is separated from his body (emission). Because of the complexity of the materialization (an actual human being) and the manipulation of another being from a distance (manipulation and emission), and you see why Wing believes Kastro wasted his Enhancement abilities.
Netero's focus is all about Enhancing his martial arts. Whether the Buddha statue is Emission or Materialization does not really matter as his restrictions (praying and 10 years of nothing but training) seem really strict. His manipulation use is also very strict as he must do the pose/form for the statue to follow.
The biggest difference between Emission and Materialization is Materialized objects are real. Anyone can see them, but more importantly, they cannot really be separated from the user. As soon as they are separated, the user needs to use Emission to keep it solid, and we know Materialization users have problems with detaching their auras from their body.
Emission and Manipulation go hand in hand because to manipulate and object/person, the user has to be able to do it from a distance which means their aura must leave their body. Shalnark's mobile antenna that controls people, Illumi's needles all have their nen infused and those objects then can be separated from the body which can then be used to control people.
Crap, I just wrote a ton. Sorry for the wall of text and hope it helps. Feel free to disagree or make counterarguments as I love discussing magic systems in fantasy settings.
Wing didn't mention Kastro's clone required Emission, so I suppose the distance between them was so short that, while he definitely had to use SOME emission, he didn't really have to use it THAT much. Goreinu's beasts are too similar to Kastro's to NOT be materialization. As soon as he was KO'ed, the beast disappeared (and Razor had to comment on that, meaning it wasn't obvious). It was stated that, even if he woke up, he wouldn't be in any state to be able to summon the beasts again, both phisically and mentally. Going back to Kastro, he had to be totally calm and focused to be able to summon his clone at will.
Razor's clones seemed to be totally independent, Razor even gave them voice/gesture signals sometimes, which wouldn't be needed if he was manipulating them like Goreinu, so it's possible that his clones didn't even need any Manipulation at all.
Goreinu probably doesn't need to be THAT focused because, if the beasts are really materialized, it's a safe assumption to think that his type is Materialization, so, he probably could have summoned his beasts if he were in Kastro's situation. He just wouldn't be able to do it after waking up from Razor's attack because of the damage it caused and, more than anything, because of the psychological trauma.
Also, I'm still not entirely sold on Hatsu referring only to the schools... didn't Wing say Hatsu was "releasing the aura", or something along those lines? I'm pretty sure any Nen technique would fall under that condition.
Last edited by MegamanX195; May 01, 2012 at 10:34 PM.
About Gensuru: I think the reason Gensuru was able to Materialize the bombs from far away was that his two other buddies, Sabu and Bara, may have had a hand in it, i.e. one of them used Emission. The timers were probably Manipulation-based. So maybe one Sabu or Bara is a Manipulator and is strong enough to Emit real far or the Emitter is strong enough to create timers. Gensuru's main ability I think is actually Little Flower, so that gives the main component of the Countdown bombs. Remember that "Bomb Devil" is not one person but actually three.
About Kastro: Since Kastro is from Reinforcement which is adjacent to Emission he'll have no problem moving the Doppelganger away from him. His problem lies in the maintenance of the image (Materialization) and controlling it (Manipulation). Kastro is trying to be a jack-of-all-trades with Doppelganger, and it's ironic that he probably overlooked Transformation (maybe not, Tiger Fang has to be sharp, right?).
About Razor: I think the reason he's able to make his Devils move almost seamless is that he had the opportunity to train a lot and because of the low number of clones he was able to make them move very skillfully. They needed to be Manipulated, but the Devils were probably given very good built-in movements like Deep Purple Clones imitating Knuckle, i.e. it's not very obvious what command Morau gave them as opposed to the obvious pattern the lower-level smoke dolls had (create distance, pick up nearest object and throw at pursuer).
About Novu: I think he and his ability is Emission-based. The main point of his ability is distance, or creating distance using a space, which cleanly falls under Emission. If it was Materialization, then the focus would have been on an object that creates a space that really has nothing to do with distance. He won't be able to maintain the waypoints without the help of an Emitter, and the waypoints would have been visible.
About Netero: He's probably an Emitter or Reinforcer. If he was a Reinforcer then it's a shame he didn't seem to have a useful Transformation ability, something a master like him would not probably make a mistake of doing. Emission covers all of the needs of his abilities, having good Reinforcement and Manipulation support. He's probably an Emitter leaning towards Reinforcement. He may have minimized Manipulation training but who knows how many forms/styles Kannon had, it could've been a lot.
I think Goreinu's creatures are materialized because of the reasons I stated in the other post. Razor felt the need to comment that Goreinu's creatures disappeared when he was KO'ed because he was manipulating them and it wasn't obvious. I think Razor's creatures (and Emission Nen creatures in general) are independent, and require next to none Manipulation. I think if Razor was KO'ed, his creatures wouldn't (necessarily) disappear.
Also, based on Wing not mentioning Kastro's Emission skills (he wouldn't have any problems since he is a Reinforcer, but still, Wing didn't even mention it), I also have another theory: materialized Nen "creatures" -like Kastro's clone and Goreinu's gorillas- don't require Emission. That's because they're already made "real" away from the user. It'd be pretty ridiculous to be able to materialize creatures that would need to be stuck to you the whole time, and since Emission is the polar opposite from Materialization it would mean materializing Nen creatures would be a mistake.
Second bolded part,, Kastro is an Enhancer and one of the reasons he lost is because he chose a Materialization technique (his clone) instead of sticking to the default category he belongs to. Meaning if Kastro was from the Materialization group his clone technique would be multiple times stronger and more efficient to use, and it has absolutly nothing to do with Enhancement.
About the Bomber trio what i understood is Count Down requires all three categories to be released , so i'm guessing while Gensuru is the main user, he can plant it on a target but not detonate it at will, without the other 2 the bomb will keep counting down till it explodes, that's what i understood when they said bomber all 3 of them not just Gensuru.
But still the main point of Goreinu's gorillas were that they were maintained far from from him and they were pretty independent. Some things a Materialization user can't really do. Add to that that the special ability of the gorillas were to exchange places with their targets - something that pretty much requires Emission because of the distance involved.
Doesn't help your argument that Wing didn't mention Kastro's Emission skills. It should be common sense at this point that you are going to have good affinity with Emission skills when you're a Reinforcement user. Just because Wing didn't say it doesn't mean Kastro didn't have to use Emission when he clearly needed it at the very least. What helped him was that he didn't have to permanently Materialize the Doppelganger all the time he needed to use it - he just made it appear when he needed to use it.
If it was ridiculous for materialized items to be stuck to you the whole time then why did Kurapika had to mention that he needed to use Emission to materialize his chains stuck on targets that are extremely far away from him (Paku, Kuroro)?
Sabu and Bara's part on Countdown is more likely not limited to getting a sooner explosion because a Materializer basically sucks at maintaining things from far away. Abengane did not know there were two other guys involved with Countdown so he thought Gensuru was good at both Materialization and Emission which is not a good way to train Hatsu at all.
About Netero (2): If Netero was Reinforcement, it would be quite foolish to develop an ultimate technique (Zero) that isn't based off of it, since Zero is clearly an Emission blast. There's a huge drop in power. Even if there are huge Mystery Point bonuses given by pouring all your aura into that blast, there's still a clear advantage in just using a Reinforcement-based ultimate Hatsu technique. I'm pretty sure Netero took that into consideration.
Also, 10 years of training non-stop is not a restriction for Kannon. Netero just followed the natural path of learning Nen, or, "taking our time", as Wing said in Chapter 48 page 3.
Additionally, here is an interesting bit in how I think Netero formulated the Shingen way of learning Nen, and eventually, Kannon.
We all know about the four basic Nen skills, Ten, Zetsu, Ren, Hatsu - as mentioned in order by Zushi in Chapter 46 page 7 and Wing in page 9 of the same chapter.
Now, observe a future chapter: Chapter 265 pages 4-5.
On page 5 we see Netero doing the cycle he goes through before releasing the punch. In my translation it says: Preparation, Worship, Prayer, Readying, and the Thrust.
If we align the basic Nen skills and the cyclce Netero uses, we find that they are roughly the same.
Preparation and Worship stages roughly coincide with Ten.
Prayer roughly coincide with Zetsu.
Readying roughly coincide with Ren.
The Thrust roughly coincide with Hatsu.
By consolidating all of this into a system he basically hit upon the Shingen-style Nen teaching.
By repetition of this cycle Netero has come up with his Hatsu, Kannon, which appears only after a punch, or, a 'Thrust' has been released.
We can clearly see that in one cycle moving towards the release of even one Thrust or the Inflammation of Spirit, Netero has encapsulated the whole Shingen training program.
We can clearly see that through this rigorous cycle for a decade, Netero has effectively erased the need for a "restriction".
And in this light, we can see that the whole cycle of releasing a Thrust is not a "restriction", but a way to make oneself "feel better", similar to how Gon has to scream the words "Jan Ken xxx" before release.
Quoting you again "Sabu and Bara's part on Countdown is more likely not limited to getting a sooner explosion because a Materializer basically sucks at maintaining things from far away", again speculation which have 0 facts from the manga.
Sticking to what we've seen so far in the manga regarding summoned beasts only this is my understanding:
1. using Emission alone: Pre orders can be gives including how to react in certain situations plus generals rules of movements etc (Razor's beasts as an example).
2. using Manipulation alone: Creating aura beasts with no physical bodies plus Direct control by the user in all times (a good example of this in the manga was one of the Nostrado guards who created dolls, used them to attack Kurapica and co at the mansion and another use at the auction where he died,named Tochino i think?)
3. using Materialization + Manipulation: you create actual bodies with Materialization and use manipulation to control them.
Seeing that Materialization users who chose to summon beats as a technique of the choice almost always have to have a good level of Manipulation.
4. a mix of types like in Morau's case where he applied different uses for the same ability.
Regarding Gensuru i think like many other stated that high level abilities consist of applying more than 1 category in them, for Netero i typed before i'm guessing he's mainly an Emitter with max Reinforcement with respect to his level, but that's an interesting way to look at it the application of all the basic skills into his prayer cycle i like it
I love this complex system it eats your mind thinking about the different sets, rules and applications which we've seen, i don't think i ever enjoyed a battle system anywhere near NEN system, it's just so breath taking and it opens up tens of possibilities for a single ability, so no wonder we'll have 10 different opinions for a single technique
I'm actually also looking forward to the announced movie, even though the characters and story won't be related to the manga but still to see new nen abilities and in combat no doubt makes me excited about it, though the contents wont be canon but the abilities themselves belonging to which group will most certainly be compatible with the manga, the animators will probably ask Togashi sensei for general guidance on this subject. so some abilities in the movie might help us understand some abilities in the manga better...........unless the setting for the movie is before heaven's arena that would suck
Last edited by Sea Hunter; May 03, 2012 at 07:42 AM.
Well, if Koltopi's objects are limited by the fact that they only last for 24 hours, Genthru's are "limited" by the fact that the bombs blow up in a few hours (corresponding to the target's heartbeat). Maybe Genthru used the restriction as an advantage. Abengane didn't seem to think it was impossible to do what Genthru did, only that it would require very good skills, which is precisely what he had. It would be pretty weird if Sub or Bara, both out of the game, in another continent, would be able to have a hand in the technique's Emission at that time. Remember, the bombs weren't materialized before, they only materialize after Genthru explains his ability to the targets (as Abengane commented that Genthru "Just materialized over 40 bombs").
I didn't say it was ridiculous for materialized items to be stuck to you the whole time, I said it was ridiculous for materialized creatures to be stuck to you the whole time. Wing didn't say it was totally unthinkable to materialize a clone, he just said it was unthinkable to do so as a Reinforcement user.
Let's suppose a Materialization user decides to materialize a clone. Kurapika said his chain lost potency and accuracy as soon as it left his hand to the point of being borderline useless, so one can assume the same would happen if a Materialization user were to materialize a clone, even more so because a clone is far more complex than a chain. It'd be pretty ridiculous to materialize a clone and have it stuck to you the whole time to be of any use, don't you agree?
Putting the 2 facts together, it means materializing creatures (not objects) requires no Emission. And that's not overpowered either, because it was never said you could "see" through the eyes of materialized creatures, meaning that as soon as it left your field of vision you wouldn't be able to use it to do any good.