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Precisely, definitely. Maybe had the ship's crew planned out their anchoring better, things would've turned out differently. I started writing thinking that seinens (being aimed at older readers) would find room to fit more things into the protagonist's journey and the author/artist should have more leeway in general.Quote:
Friendship has always been a huge part of the story and this was made adamant by Kakashi after the bell exercise hundreds of chapters ago. However, the distinction between the adult and his three rookies is that he's able to move on. What's worse is "friendship" doesn't just stall, it's proven rather destructive at times when self imposed and not mutual. Memorable cases included bouts between Sarutobi and Orochimaru (whole village paid dearly over this), Sasuke and Sakura (degradation of our main female protagonist), and of course between Sasuke and Naruto (tell me about it, lol).
If there was this sort of stereotyping going on, it didn't influence me on either post. All there's to it is that the series has been going on for a while and from what I gathered seinens appeal more to me now.Quote:
Plenty of novels for that or you could think up a story of your own.Quote:
That's about all I could think of right now. Keep 'em coming folks!
Last edited by Akabeth; August 29, 2012 at 04:50 PM.
No. Naruto is as childishly Shonen as it gets. Hunter X Hunter, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Series 1-6, and even Bleach is more mature than Naruto.
But maturity doesn't necessarily equate to being seinen. Some series just end up in Seinen magazines due to editorial issues or sales.
Have you read part one of Naruto...?
Naruto would definitely be better as a seinen, since the the one thing which almost ruins this Manga is it's main Character. Naruto as a kid was alright, because he was a child and his childish ideals were fitting. Now years later the Character hasn't evolved one bit, which drags everything down, including the villains and what they stand for.
In Seinen Manga there always is a great tradgedy, which forces the Characters to evolve, Naruto needed something like this many Chapters ago.
But i guess Kishi just isn't good with characterdevelopment (Hinata's confession and Naruto's totaly ignorance towards her, Nagato's unconvincing change of heart....), only exceptions seem to be Kakashi and Obito, but you can't really count those two, since we only saw theire "undeveloped" younger versions in a few gaiden chapters.
oh wait... there was one other character evolution!
He : http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/293/5
evolved into: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/11
Last edited by Revvo; August 30, 2012 at 11:23 AM.
And the Uchiha massacre was shallow. It wasn't until recently that we even got to see how it began and even that is still the same old song. The worst part is that, as I mentioned before, the massacre only impacted Sasuke. The Ishvalan War had an impact on pretty much every main and secondary character, even those who weren't involved. The whole "killing is justiflied" angle has long been gone, especially with Naruto as the main character. Notice how the only people who die are either killed by someone evil or kill themselves. Even Sasuke, who's suppose to be the main villain, has a losely track recond in actually murdering anyone. And when we were finally given a chance to get back to the roots with the Fourth War, a chance to show how evil and terrible war is as key characters had stated, instead we got a war involving plants and zombies. Not only that, but not only hasn't any known character died, but the war has been going in the good guys favor since the start. It goes completely against what we had been told.
The biggest problem in Naruto is the fact that all the evil actions being committed are being linked to just a few key people. The Uchiha massacre was dump on Danzo, allowing everyone else involved to be kept clean. Same with Akatsuki and those situations in Kiri. Dumped on Tobi and Madara. Everyone else is excused as being misguided. At least in FMA, the people helping Father were responsible for their own evil and knew full well what they were doing.
well , thanks to Kishi :
1- Naruto never facing to hard choice
2- Everyone from his classmate and friend following him like sheep and he has no difficulty to struggle for them ...
3- Naruto always ignore main question and answering them ( for example he has no answer for NAGATO , TOBI and etc ... )
4- Naruto and Kakashi ignored UChiha massacre and Itachi death so easily and they even didn't bother themselves to ask a simple question to Elders ...
5- Every ninja in Naruto world changing their heart and ideas in less than 5 minutes and accepting Naruto's agenda ....
6- none of Naruto's friends geting wounded nor ding in the war .... that mean Naruto has no concern about facing the hard and sad situation ..
7- Qb become a lovely pet for Naruto in minutes after living hundreds years of hatred !!
Kishi making everything as easy as drinking water for his main character >>> that mean Nartuo character is more childish for most of shounen manga as well > So with Kishi style , he can't write an senining manga with his current main charater ...
in other hand , we have both Sasuke and Itachi , they always have to make bloody and hard choice , and nothing going according of their favor in manga ... they have their mistake as well .... if you remove ITachi and Sasuke , then Naruto manga will become a bullshit that his main character will be successful in everything !!!
Naruto has had an easy path but so has Sasuke if you want to compare reaching goals. In the end Naruto has the steepest slope to climb as he has to convert Sasuke to reach his goal, Sasuke simply has to continue what hes doing.
well , Sasuke has some hard and critical choose in his path :Quote:
1- choose to killing Itachi when he was 7
2- choosing between staying in Konoha or going to Oro
3- choosing between killing Naruto or spare his life
4- choosing between going against Konoha ( staying with Akatsuki ) or going to konoha or keep working alone
5- choosing to go Kage summit or retreat and making new plan for killing Danzo
6- choosing between stab Danzo and killing him ( by sacrificing karin ) or letting Danzo to go ...
every one of his choice was critical and most of them was so hard , he make some right decision or some wrong decision .... and almost nothing going as his favor and always was some unknown truth ruining his life ....
Sasuke had to choice between his clan honor or his village , between his brother's desire or his parent's revenge , between to live as a konoha hero ( according of Itachi's A plane ) or life as international criminal ... and he always face another hard situation ....
in other hand , Naruto only say " I want become Hokage " and keep continue to oblivious path and thanks to kishi everything going according of his favor ( for example , if Nagato didn't get brainwashed in less than 10 minuets and continue to his fight , then Naruto would face an hell ... but Nagato changed his mind and above that , revived everyone !!! ) , ignoring something that ruined Sasuke's life and saying "I'm his friend " and etc ...
I already said this in this forume : " I only reading this manga to see what is Sasuke's end " and I hope Kishi doesn't ruin Sasuke story to show Naruto more heroic !!!
One thing you guys made me realize is that Naruto's past is all about how he's a fucked up attention-seeking human that is incapable of maknig friends, yet in the actual manga everyone instantly loves the guy, each in their own way.
Like, he never actually had to overcome that. As soon as the manga's plot started he became a friend magnet, yet prior to what we know as chapter 1 he seemed to be incapable of befriending anyone. Why is that?
I guess that's Naruto (the character) failing to run into a lot of potential hardships, and that's immature and it sucks.
But I maintain my point there would be no improvement if it's a seinen, and that it's not related to the genre, it's just badly done in general.
---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 PM ----------
1. Choosing to never go back on his word
which got him into a lot of shit and yet he still does it. There's also choosing to be nice to Pain and stuff like that. If you're going to name it by bullet points like that, Naruto has had his fair share of hardships. I don't know if you remember, but back when Naruto and Sasuke worked together, whenever shit got hard (Gaara, Orochimaru, Zabuza, etc.) Sasuke's immediate thought was "let's get the fuck out of here" and Naruto's thought was "I'll die here if I have to."
I think that when you compare the two, Naruto is much better at dealing wtih hardships. Choosing to not run away from Orochimaru is much more conflicting than a lot of what Sasuke did, in my opinion.
The Uchiha massacre is the only thing Sasuke really has going for him in terms of hardships, everything else is self inflicted. Naruto gets shit thrown at him every day and he survives it.
and are you kidding with me !?
I'm talking that in this story , the main character really didn't force to make any critical decision , so at least this main character isn't worthy enough for any seinin manga ( well , as third rate and comic character he will be useful to some low rank seinin ... )
choosing killing your brother who love it more than anyone , choosing between become an hero or become an international criminal , r choosing between clan/family or village/country is not like choosing between continue your dream when every one praising you and you destined to be Hokage ....
Naruto only continue his destiny , and in other hand , sasuke should overcome it or he will end up like his clan ....
destiny already make every thing well for Naruto , just as him want , so Naruto only should continue a certain path , but for Sasuke , this is completely different, he had no one who foresaw his destiny , so he should choose it by himself ....
Sasuke have the truth , if he saying the truth , his country looking him as the last remaining member of traitors clan , if he ignore it , that mean he ignore everything he live for it till now , in other hand , if Naruto saying he is son of 4th hokage , every one will praise him ....
Sasuke lost all of his clan and his brother and if he say nothing , other seeing his brother as a traitor and if say it , they will consider his parent as traitor ; a lose - lose game fore him .... and he see who ordered his clan to death are worst than most of ninjas in world .....
Last edited by shafagh; August 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM.
Or if Itachi didn't freed him from Oro's control and giving him MS and EMS at the same time and instead took his eyes for himself.
Or if Tobi didn't saved Sasuke's butt time and time again in the summit.
Or if the Uchiha bros weren't conveniently protected by plot against Kabuto
Hell every single important character has plot armour, example, what if Yondaime here went for the head and not for the gut?
Dead Tobi -> no antagonist in this manga.
To single out Naruto, when the guy faced way more failures in this manga than many other main characters, shows pretty much how biased you are.
Just to point out, your Sasuke defeated Naruto.
Thanks to Kishi
Wasn't forced to make any critical decision?Quote:
Did you miss part 1, where Naruto said he could've easily gone the same path Gaara went?
Or when he didn't want to kill Sasuke and went for his forehead protector instead than his gut?
Part 2, when Sasuke killed Itachi and escaped from him again?
Or when Jiraiya died?
Or when Konoha was destroyed, Hinata was almost killed and he was face to face with the murdered who did it all?
I'm not a big fan of Naruto as a character, but to say that he had it easy is not right
His family, his clan were traitors, don't kid yourself.Quote:
Itachi said so himself how much Uchiha disgusted him.
Also don't make it look like Sasuke is a martyr lol, the guy forged his own path towards revenge and hatred, he chose every single action he did himself.
He was being the puppet of Itachi first, then Tobi, yet it was still him, doing thing of his own free will.
And that is what defines Sasuke as a great character imho:
he has the same determination as Naruto, but unlike Naruto he would do everything to accomplish it. If you ask me, he is way more human than what Naruto is now.
Still as a seinen we know Naruto would be way better as well, part 1 Naruto was pretty badass and had nothing of this "child of propecy" thingy going on, reread the Wave arc or the Chunin Exams arc
Continuing to keep your promise and fight for your values despite everything that happens is not childish. It's one of the most admirable qualities people can have, and Sasuke doesn't have it.
Itachi, on the other hand... Itachi would make a brilliant conflicted protagonist. Because he's the hero that the leaf village deserved, but not the one it needs right now. So he'll be an S rank criminal. And he'll be hated. And he'll be in Akatsuki. Why? Because he can take it. He's a silent guardian. A dark knight.
But Sasuke? Sasuke's just a little bitch. He can't take it, he lets it take over him.
Last edited by DoctorApollo; August 31, 2012 at 09:18 PM.
Hell, even when he was put in a team, he didn't strike up friendship immediately. It took Naruto growing balls against Zabuza to get his headband back for Sakura and Sasuke to even think better of him, and then he gained more respect by coming up with a plan to free Kakashi. Even during the chuunin exams, he didn't get respect until he finally beat Kiba.
It took fights for Naruto to gain respect and make friends. People then started thinking better of him and gave him a chance once they saw he wasn't some stupid attention whore.
Though, this is a typical shounen theme, I guess.
Neither of those have an easy path, but Naruto's path is a bit easier due to the war: to bring permanent peace and understanding and to become a hokage. Sasuke wants or wanted revenge on Konoha, which will be hard as he'll have to fight tons of shinobi with at most, four people.