Coulda swore I posted here already but, I give him most wins except against Nagato, Madara, Tobi, and potentially Hashirama. Itachi and Sasuke both have good chances aswell, but it all comes down to how quickly they can burn him, since activating their MS's and using a jutsu is faster than Naruto can go Enhanced Chakra Mode.
Regardless, my point was that there is no reason to ignore past performance just because it's in the past over present performance when there's no sign of any changing.
You can't take any action (even stoping time) to counter a instantenous action that already happen. Whatever you do the action already happened. Its like stoping time after you got shoot in the brain to try to dodge the bullet after your brain is mush.
In other words a instantenous action applies its effect before you can counter as it has no length in time. Before Kurama would the genjutsu hit the thing would already be in the past.
Of course you are ignoring the fact that Sasuke was able to have a long look at Bee and started walking before Bee was busted out. The biju needs to notice and then chanels its chakra into the host to stop the genjutsu. It takes time.
Last edited by xXan; May 25, 2012 at 12:44 AM.
Kabuto's position is done for the sake of saving manga pages, regardless of the moment he was in both times in the ceiling of the cave. I already pointed out both pages, in the first there is the close up with the MS, in the second the same MS goes missing, thus activating Izanami.
The fight was very real
Yet this is the most recent one, alas this is Sasuke at his fullest, he has no wound, no desease, is stable mentally, has his strongest level of Sharingan and everything.Quote:
In a real outcome, this fight is what matters, not previous fights.
In a fantasy fight, we can use every fight every character has, that's what I meant
Fact tells us that Kurama's involvement is extremely quick inspite of the long subsequent processes required that goes on in Naruto's inner self, the end result in the real is very quick. That is mainly what i am pointing out to you.
Because Kurama's involvement is that quick inspite of the processes, I compared the speed in which he involves himself to that of a space and time. That is all ^_^
I put my money on Madara being the only one to stop Naruto, even without Hashirama powers.
The relevant data is that:
1-It takes a good amounth of time before a biju busts you out:
This is enough time for Itachi's genjutsu to be over.
2- The biju does NOT instantly know you are in one. It needs to figure it out:
All the Biju's and there hosts have the same ability to talk in there inner world. Kyuubi is no different. Not only is Itachi's genjutsu instant(as proven above) but a biju needs time to bust you out, it needs to figure it out to bust you out (all proven above).
If Madara does not have Hashirama DNA aka senju DNA aka Uzumaki DNA he probably can't use the rinnegan. No rinnegan and he is not winning. He does not even have the stupid Susano clones he is using now. Not only that no ET and he can't summon meteors or he would kill himself.
But yes curent ET, rinnegan, hashirama wilding Madara would defenetly beat Naruto.
Last edited by xXan; May 31, 2012 at 01:27 AM.
As for Madara, if Perfect Susano'o is an EMS skill then yes, he could beat Naruto ( that thing is gigantic ), if it is a Rin'negan skill then no.
Bear in mind that Madara unlocked the Rin'negan when he was alive, so for all intent and purpose he should have it regardless if he's an ET or not.
Considering he can switch it to EMS at will, it is definitely one of his abilities
Oh yes we can. Sasuke has what he needs to BRAKE IT himself. A jin perfect or not does not have it. For Sasuke its not instant as he is inside that world. For the rest it is(if Itachi wants it as he can control time, he can make it 10 mins). I have Kakashi confirming it.
A biju partner is no diferent then having a normal team partner with you. Nobody is busting you out of that genjutsu, Kakashi stated it so himself back when he had his fight with Itachio's 30% clone.
Of course you are free to try to prove how exacly is a biju replicating the sharingan and Uchiha blood + mastery you need to fight off that genjutsu.
Oh your are free to provide evidence of that Huge Susano durability feats or it get's blasted away from 1 flash bijudama.
Madara also got the Senju DNA when he was alive. It makes sense that after he got the Senju DNA he was able to awaken the rinnegan somehow. But there is no evidence for it. We have no evidence if 1 can upgrade a EMS to rinnegan with just Uchiha DNA and that is why i stated he probably can't do that.
Last edited by xXan; May 31, 2012 at 06:13 AM.
How a Sharingan negates the space/time effect of the jutsu?
Also I doubt Kakashi was referring to a person which has a Bijuu to broke the genjutsu, for all intent and purpose the Bijuu can replicate what Sasuke did there.
Considering it got introduced this week, seems kind of impossible for you as well to prove that a Bijuudama wouldn't destroy it.Quote:
If we go with common sense, we can say that he definitely has a good possibility of doing it, being as great or even greater, dimension-wise, than a Bijuu.
Also duh, it is implied that Madara achieved the Rin'negan with Hashirama's DNA, but having Hashirama's DNA didn't grant him Mokuton, only Rin'negan.
ET Madara, countrary to the original, has Hashirama's powers in form of Mokuton, and probably Hashirama's strong chakra/stamina as well.
Sasuke's Tsukuyomi would be ineffective because he so far can only instill fear or freeze people, but the bijuu can break 'em out of it. Itachi can control the time, make it real time or short, or even control how his victims will be like.
it does make sense. For the dude inside the genjutsu times flows normaly. For anybody aside from that (exlucind Itachi of course) times is frozen. A Biju could perhaps do that but the genjutsu would be over before you can do anything, before the biju can take any action to prevent it. If Itachi could not control time you could bust out like Bee did vs Sasuke, but here a Biju would not be able to intervene as the action is instant, before it can do anything the action is already in the past. A biju acts like a normal team partner. What Kakashi stated there applies more then enough here.Quote:
So in essence the sharingan does not negate the ST effect, its just that for the individual with the sharingan times flows as normaly as he is inside the genjutsu. The sharingan has no need to counter the time diference, for him time is flowing normaly, he just needs to brake the genjutsu.
That is not how it works. I can provide how much damage 1 normal bijudama can do, then you times that x5 (as it was a draw with 5 biju's) and see what we get. Then you provide evidence of that thing's durability. If you can i think its to soon to state that Madara can beat Naruto with that Susano no? We first need to see the chapter and then decide. That flashdama is probably the most powerfull/destructive ability in the manga. I mean 5 biju's worth of bijudama.... I am going to need some insane feats from that Susano to belive that thing can take it. Just because its bigger it does not mean its more dense. So in essence its durability does not increase, just its size. Of course the shield would be greater (the distance from outside to inside where Madara is) and so the blast would need more to get to him but that is not that impresive lol.Quote:
Well yes but that guy said no Hashirama DNA and that would mean no rinnegan (if he really got it only because of that). It was a reply to what that guy said. Also what do you mean that having Hashirama DNA didn't grant him Mokuton? Of course it did. Same for Danzou, remember he was able to grow a tree. Is just that Danzou could not control Hashirama's DNA/powers/whatever.Quote:
Well of coruse he has all that (chakra, stamina, whatever) but the point was that he stated no Hashirama DNA and i was answering that.
Last edited by xXan; June 01, 2012 at 01:04 AM.
Sasuke broke it, and I believe Naruto could too, since the Kyuubi would be inside the illusionary world with him
Sasuke overcame it with a combination of Sharingan and Cursed Seal, and I believe that, inside the illusionary world, Naruto could do that too thanks to Kyuubi.
Tsukuyomi goes as far as almost breaking the target's mind because they endure 3 days of torture, if the genjutsu is broken before that I don't think that Tsukuyomi goes as far as doing significant damage
I know, trust me I know lol.Quote:
But we know from experience that some individuals can deal with bijuus even if they are equipped with a mountain buster ( Third Raikage, Hashirama ), thus, using common sense, a construct of chakra, known for his defence, as great as a bijuu really gives the appearance of being capable of withstanding this.
We don't know if it can, but it has a good possibility of doing it
Oh, didn't really remember that lol.Quote:
My bad, you're absolutely right
The jutsu once is cast aka Itachi got his eye contact and relsed it its instant, INSTANT. We have clear manga evidence. Or better yet it can be instant if Itachi desire it to be so. This is again clearly stated in the manga.Quote:
Sasuke was not in CS. That was just a genjutsu crep. Here:
In genjutsu CS lvl2:
Real world NO cs:
Naruto going SM to fight the Kyuubi, SM in his head and he is going in real life to:
I don't know what role exacly played genjutsu world CS but... Sasuke was able to brake it as he had the needed components to do so, those components where made clear in the manga. Sharingan, Uchiha blood, sharingan mastery.
Naruto can't use the Kyuubi here to help himself. The Kyuubi is going to be outside and only notice that Naruto is inside the genjutsu AFTER its over. Naruto can't use the Kyuubi in any way to bust out. For the Kyuubi this genjutsu ends instantly and for Naruto it lasts 3 days and he, by himselfs can't bust out and Kurama is not there to help him as he is "frozen in time". As we know from Bee:
1-Its not instant, and it takes more then enough time for the genjutsu to be over:
The Kyuub is not busting Naruto any faster then the 8tails if you got no feats. And this time is more then enough for Itachi's genjutsu to finish him off even if it takes 1 seconds... Or hell even 3.
2-The biju NEEDS TO KNOW the target is in a genjutsu and that does not happen automaticly and it takes time and observation:
The biju needs to notice Naruto is in a genjutsu and snap him out of it. Naruto can't do anything by himself. I am sorry but any way you look at this (instant or not) Naruto is not busting out with his biju.
What you can argue is:
1-He could tank it by entering SM where he has some type of regenerative powers and using Kurama's chakra to heal his brain or something (it was able to heal a hole in his chest). Or just keep fighting ignoring the trauma as the Uzumaki have insane stamina and endurance as proven by Kushina. Or a combination of all of the above.
2-He is not getting hit as he has clones around.
Well those dudes had specific counters. Third Raikage for instance could deal with the 8 tails but imagine going against curent Naruto with flasdama... Not a chanse in hell. Going from handling the 8 tails to curent Naruto empowered by Kurama is a huge way. Same could be said about Hashirama... Imagine Naruto creating 4 clones and going 4 full kurama mode and flashdama from 4 sides rofl. That Susano needs some serious durability feats or speed or something else.Quote:
Last edited by xXan; June 01, 2012 at 04:46 AM.