And how a meteor dropping onto another would've missed them? Actually it did more damage since, you know, instead of the impact of a single meteor they endured the impact of a meteor on top of another
Bijuu Mode =/= Kyuubi since, you know, its made from Naruto's and Kyuubi's chakra fused together, the same Naruto that, during training, saturated the chakra-less Kyuubi.Quote:
You see the difference with the fist-bumps:
Naruto is about as tall as half of Kyuubi's fist while Son completely dwarfs him.
Naruto owned 5 of them using the help of another, Tobi controlled them only because those neat chakra spikes and Hashirama still had to fight a Bijuu ( Kyuubi ) on top of Madara.Quote:
So not only controlling a bijuu isn't as easy as you are led to believe, but even those who can control them have an hard time doing it.
Also Rikudou didn't beat the Juubi by sealing it, he beat it and, seeing it couldn't be killed, sealed it into himself.
EDIT: correction, he didn't just normally sealed him, he sealed only the chakra, while the body was sent to the Moon.
Even more impressive.
Also hype is relevant, expecially if said hype is corroborated with feats:
Rikudou defeated the Juubi, sealed it, became its Jinchuuriki, gave his powers to his sons, created ninjutsu, had a jutsu that enabled him to create anything he fancied and he created the Moon.
This isn't mere hype, those are feats that created all the hype that surrounds Rikudou. There isn't a doubt that he did all the things he was said to have done
Actually he couldn't absorb that last Jinton because he was controlling 25 Susano'os, so no, it isn't him toying, is him taken by surprise.Quote:
The first time he was joking around
Already explained to you aboveQuote:
Jaymizzo explained it perfectly.Quote:
Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; June 06, 2012 at 06:32 AM.
Rikudou Sennin seals Madara inside the moon... like everything else. I don't even want to know about what else is probably inside there... most likely its like his personal garbage dump.
People who says RS didn't display any feats, they're right, but then again how come you believe Madara saying Hashirama is the only one who can stop when we've never seen him fight either ? You disregard RS being called a " god ", but don't have a problem admitting Hashirama > Madara ?
Well not sure but sand is sand that Gaara can levitate. Also it was not only sand, the other dudes misxed some other crep with it. Perhaps removing the sand would open him to some other crep. No idea. Wood element is wood that is created trough chakra and a jutsu. Its like water or fire (obviously not an element) that the rinnegan can absorb.Quote:
Also the meteor did not missed them but they had another meteor stoped just above them to take the blund of the damage.
Here it stopped:
Its like a shield right above them. More detailed here:
It stopped in the other meteor. Madara and the other ET Kage that where NOT under the bolder got "killed":
Not only that Madara was inside his Susano. So yes they where protected by it.
I don't belive so, To me its a real life representation of the Kyuubi trough the shield. Makes sense to me(again Kyuubi coming out of CT and the size of it).Quote:
Also the Kyuubi and Son are the same, the only diference is that Son's has a diferent anatomy and his hand si bigger. Like bigger bones. Look at the lenght of the arm.
Even so its VERY close. Just use the botton picture with Naruto and the hand, the middle one does not have a good angle.
But he did. Tobi just as well did that. And Hashirama was able to beat Tobi + Kyuubi exacly. Just replace Naruto with Tobi/Madara and having Tobi or Madara with genjutsu controling it to do those things (Tobi/Madara drinking Sake at the same time).Quote:
How hard is to control or not is not really relevant. It can be done. Also controling and just beating it are completly diferent thing. Hashirama had MULTIPLE beats under his control, even the 9 tails. TOBI 1 SHOOT 1 of them.
You got it wrong from what i get.Quote:
He developed the seal, sealed the Juubo to take care of its power:
Then the link to support the above:
It states nothing about him beating it with convencional means. Its clearly stated he developed that jutsu to supress its power. He had no other way to do it.
He defeated the Juubi like Minato when he sealed into into his son. Remove the seal and do you think Minato could defeat it? Also the moon was done with the power of the Juubi but even so i belive that is a metafor and nothing more. Ripping appart the Earth to create the moon would anihilate all life on it. Of course you can give me the line "its a manga" here.Quote:
Also hype is irrelevant when i said he has no real feats and you posted in response to that.
Not it was. He created them clones to make it 5 vs 1 kage, just as he was 1 vs 5 of them. Then he asked them if they want those clones to use Susano. it was just a big joke to him.Quote:
Yes he got hit by suprise but it was because he was playing around.
No, those are not combat feat or real feats. Perhaps to create the moon (the only real feat) takes days (we don't know) so its not a combat feat.Quote:
I will quote him on this to answer to you both:Quote:
Again its close to all but speculation about RK, no feats.
Also we don't know how long you need to cocentrate to create that. What if its years? We would need to asume (ignoring the OP) that he can do the standard CT Nagato showed and that can be stopped or just blown appart by Madara's Susano (last chapter feat).
Curent Madara >> Hashirama>old Madara.
Curent Madara has the rinnegan and wood element himself (and of course ET but he can't use it here).
Last edited by xXan; June 06, 2012 at 08:34 AM.
That is not the issue Xxan.
The thing is, for other topics for instance, when you people say Hashirama > Hiruzen for example, you back up your claim by what Madara has been saying (and he only showed like 3 Mokuton jutsus so far), but when I say for example that RS was considered the GOD, and many others foretold feats that have been not displayed, people disregard it because " he didn't show any feat ". So did Hashirama, he didn't show anything, only MADARA did, not himself...
Anyway, my opinion : RS > Than any shinobi out there
Well what Madara used (wood element) are his jutsus (Hashirama's). Problem with rinnegan (i used toi belive they all can do the same jutsus) not all of them can pull the same rinnegan techs. Madara only used the shield, why no ST? Soul suking or other crep? As of now we don't know if the rinnegan abilities are shared or are developed/learned.
Hashirama can beat Hiruzen not because he could beat Madara, but because he can summon a forest of death(polen). He can regenerate like nuts and so on.
EDIT: Of course your oppinion is valid. What i said (the first post here) it was more like a joke anyway but he really has no in combat feats.
Last edited by xXan; June 06, 2012 at 08:50 AM.
But now, Madara himself is still saying that Shodai is the only that could stop him.
I find that hard to believe seeing how weak Shodai was during his fight against Hiruzen (especially that he was immortal), but if Madara himself says it, it must be true.
So, I guess, that in all fairness, we can't tell which one is stronger now.
(Although, in all logic, Madara should be stronger since he has his power + all of Shodai's power...)
I don't think he was refering to his curent version but his past self.
If Hashirama was tied and eventualy won after many fights with old Madara .... The curent one with ET mode on, WOOD ELEMENT, RINNEGAN should win decisively. I mean seriously there is no way his curent powerul means for nothing when its a huge one.
Sand moves thanks to chakra, even in the off chance that the only thing Preta Path can't absorb in the world is sand, then at least he would've absorbed Gaara's chakra, rendering the sand useless.
As it stands, not only the sand wasn't absorbable, but also it continued to move despite Preta's sucking.
As for the meteor, even if they avoided it they still had to deal with the impact of 2 giant meteors hitting the ground.
Both things they did without much of a problem with limited abilities such as gum wall or... Whatever Temari used to survive
It isn't a matter of you believing so, its a matter of Bijuu Mode being that way.Quote:
Also good job at negating the evidence that Son > Kyuubi in dimensions by saying that Son's hand is 2 times as big as Kyuubi's because he has bigger bones.
Not gonna argue with you anymore on the issue
Except that Tobi can't control them without the spikes, as proven in recent chapters.Quote:
Saying that Tobi can control Bijuus regardless is like saying that Kabuto can use ET without DNA, the soul, the ritual and a living body, as in nonsense. Jutsus such as those requires time.
As for Hashirama controlling them, you know you further proved my point? If even he couldn't suppress instantly Kyuubi despite his abilities it just shows how difficult it is without prep time.
The moment he "suppressed" him and gave him to Mito the fight was likely over, seeing as he was a bloody mess
Are you aware bijuus are immortals?Quote:
Even if they are killed, they simply reform, and Juubi is likely no exception. That's why Bijuus are always sealed. Also, to seal the Juubi, he had to actively beat him into a weakened state, remember the Hachibi? He rampaged, and had to be fought until the sealing would've been completed.
For the Kyuubi, Yondaime had to sacrifice his own life as payment, seeing as Rikudou Sennin survived he likely didn't use the same sealing method as him, otherwise he would've died
Your opinion is exactly that, your opinion. Manga facts are manga facts, as you so well said its a manga, if Kishi draws Konohamaru owning Edo Madara you can argue all you want, its a manga feat, unbelievable as it is.Quote:
Rikudou created the Moon, this is a fact
He was joking around so much he went all serious on them, totally.Quote:
Suit yourself, I can't force you to agree to the manga if you don't want toQuote:
Has Naruto been praised to being an all knowing Futon user? No. Did Naruto create Jutsu system? No.Quote:
I dont know what part of him being the creator, having the original body and eyes which make Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, Sasuke, Itachi etc so hax, you seem to be missing.
Did Kakashi create those 1000 Jutsus or simply copy them? Well, Rikudou created Jutsu, his sons probably did too and have been passed down for generations through scrolls etc.Quote:
Oh dear me . Your saying that the original "not watered down" version of the Rinnengan user with ALL the attributes of a Senju body (again not watered down) could not stand up to MAdaras ST or Absorption?Quote:
I think you need to understand that the Senju and Uchiha are watered down versions of Rikudou.
Just like how Superboy is a watered down version of Superman, if Superman was said to be the source and creator of the powers superboy has and Superboy is just a measly watered down Copy of Superman (repeating myself i know) and someone made a Superman vs Superboy thread, Im pretty sure common sense wise you would take all of Superboys powers and give them to Superman and multiply them several times.
(Please dont bring up any of Superboys powers that Superman doesnt have, its just an example)
Im just finding it hard to believe that your actually making a case for Madara against Rikudou sennin... Its like pitting Ichibi vs Juubi
I think the reason it's a debate in the first place is that, outside of the chakra reserve, Madara potentially has all the tools to recreate Rikudou Sennin's feats. He can't make a moon... but he can use Shinra Tensei to push the moon away as RS tries to seal him in it. He doesn't have the Jyuubi's chakra reserve, but can take control of Bijuu and use them as his weapons. He didn't create all jutsu, but the Rinnegan gives him the ability to use all chakra paths and thus gives him access to all jutsu (in some degree, we don't know the actual mechanics of that).
I think it's wrong to assume he'll pick up half the planet and drop it on Madara, or throw him into the moon. I also think it's wrong to think that Madara can't harm him in any way. But I think RS would win decisively.
Its probably something to do with the fact that wood is an element created trough "magic" aka chakra. Sand is something that is on the ground.Quote:
Not only that is not like he could not abosb the sand:
Madara states here only physical attacks work on him:
Then here it stated that if sand is not enough we need him to stop him from absorbing the jutsus:
You can see that with the sand we have sealing papers things. Perhaps that are what are stoping him from doing it.
Its clearly stated that they need to stop him from absorbing the techs.
Bottom line is wood is a jutsus, Rinnegan can absorb jutsu, get it? Not only that you need to keep in mind that Madara was missing half his body (well not really but close to).
Emm no. Tsukisage made the first meteor light as hell and Gaara created pilars of sand to suport it. In essence they had a shield. Madara was obliterated from inside Susano.Quote:
Ok provide evidence that the represantation is NOT the real version of the Kyuubi. Was it stated? Was it implied anywhere? Its just your oppinion? If yes is just as irrelevant as mine.Quote:
I never said its 2x times bigger. Also do you know what bigger bones means? Its diferent anatomy as they are diferent types of animals. Kyuubi's hand for one is longer...
Yes and its insane hard to stuck a spike in there buts right? Right...Quote:
Yes because Hashirama was fighting only the Kyuubi right? Its not like he had the best Uchiha like ever in a huge Susano that is bigger and aparently stronger then the biju's (depending on the translations) right? Hashirama was able to deal with Madara + Kyuubi.Quote:
Minato instantly sealed the Kyuubi with a few handseals. He needed to do nothing more then that. He just gave his life as it was not possible to seal 100% of it in Naruto and not kill him. If RK could beat the Jyuubi to a pulp he could seal it in his magical pot but no, he had to do it in himself. Look do you have the details of that fight? NO? Then its COMPLETLY irrelevant and NOT a feat. I can come up with any fanfic i feel like. What if RK had a special power that worked only vs the Jyuubi and that is why he won? What if he just whent there and sealed it? Again no panels and its irrelevant as i can make up anything i whant and it would be just as valid as yours. Again he has no feats from that that would be applied here.Quote:
No, you as me have an oppinion. To the point Kishi puts it in panels you have an oppinion not a fact. Please provide me with the LINKS to what you call facts? As you can see i actualy taken the time to look for links for you but aparently you belive you can post you oppinion and call it fact.Quote:
RK creating the Moon would kill all life on the planet. We don't really have any feats and even if he created it as it is a manga you need to provide the panels where he does that or i can state he needs days of chaneling to do that. Again not a feat that you can use here aka not a feat.
At the end, only after they got him. Curent chapter is with him serious. Well not really as he is still busting mountains just to show them that he can...Quote:
What manga evidence? provide links.Quote:
If you belive the Moon is a feat, provide evidence of when he does it. Why? Said so above.
If you belive the Juubi is a feat, provide evidence of when he does it. Why? Said so abvove.
And so on.
Yes wood is wood but its also a jutsu. Manga evidence states rinnegan can absorb jutsus. What do you think an element created by chakra that is called a jutsu is going to do?Quote:
I am not missing anything but just because he created the concept of jutsus, like he was the first to do jutsus does not mean he knows how to do them all or what jutsus he can do. Again its like Kakashi. How do you know what jutsus he KNOWS how to do? You need to provide evidence of him using jutsus. Also RK was never stated to be all knowing jutsus user. What you are telling me he knows all the jutsus created like since ever in the manga? Inlucing clan abilities like Haku had?Quote:
Hell you can have the eyes but that does not mean you can do whatever jutsus. You still need to KNOW THEM. Now you need to provide evidence (from the manga) of what jutsus RK knew.
You completly missied the point. Its not relevant who created what. Its all about knowing what he KNOWS. You can just state he can do x jutsus because he was RK. You need to provide evidence of WHAT jutsus he knows. The same thing is for Kakashi. Again provide links to his FEATS, to where he used the jutsus. This is not a hypotetical debate on what he could have but what FEATS he displayed in the manga.Quote:
Again feats, panels, scans etc of him doing those things.
I am sorry but do you have any feats of him doing whatever? I don't care for a hypotetical debate about what he could do if you guys are chalening me stating he has no feats. Again i said no feats. Show me RK using (panels pls) jutsus. Again you could do an educated gues, hypotetical asumtion, go with the OP and so on on what he could do. But i stated FEATS. Do you have those?Quote:
So please, if you replay to me based on that, then go with that. Show me feats. I stated he has no feats. Does he? You got panels?
Also ninjabot made a good point...
But if what Nagato did and state is anything to go by... Then he ripped the planet appart....
Last edited by xXan; June 07, 2012 at 01:28 AM.
And the fact that he missed half a body doesn't matter a bit since he's an Edo.
As you said, physical attacks are needed to hit Madara, maybe, just maybe, jutsu using solid materials like wood, or sand, can't be absorbed?
If a Mokuton root hits you rest assured that the hit will be all physical
And Hashirama, someone who can create in a few seconds something like the Flower World which covered an immense radius can't do a wood shield, right?Quote:
Considering FRS didn't even penetrate through Kyuubi's skin ( never saw a cut in him ) then I assure you that planting a spike isn't this easy, considering also you have to take care of a rampaging beast.Quote:
Tobi managed because he used the spikes on the Jinchuurikis
But you said that suppressing Bijuus is no big deal, is easy to do for those who have the power also, unless bijuus are tamed kittens, every one of them will fight back, so this proves my point, suppressing bijuu isn't a walk in the parkQuote:
With a jutsu that made him sacrifice his life, and he sealed only half of Kyuubi's chakra since sealing 100% was impossible, at least for him.Quote:
But we are going nowhere, as usual. I found it impressive and a proof that even without being the Juubi jinchuuriki Rikudou is pretty much broken, you don't, is ok.
Rikudou has the Rin'negan, fact.Quote:
Rikudou has Mokuton and Senju abilities, fact.
Rikudou created Ninjutsu, fact.
Rikudou can create any form he wants with Yin chakra and give it life with Yang chakra, fact.
Rikudou is the Juubi Jinchuuriki, fact.
This facts alone puts him in a dimension above Madara and everyone else, since he is basically someone with the same powers of Madara ( if not stronger ) plus a jutsu capable of creating life over nothing and the strongest Bijuu in existance to use its chakra for, making him a god.
Those are facts, as in something that did happen in the manga and that is relevant since it isn't baseless.
And all this even without doing the Moon, which was first said by Nagato and then later confirmed by Tobi at the summit.
Facts, as I was saying