k for one i was comparing goku and vegetas power levels and whos stronger?
second heres the some lines from the databook i thought were worth reading
Sharingan is an observation eye, which is capable of exposing everything, an illusion eye capable of casting illusions and also an eye of jutsu copying capabilities.
Sharingan's observation eye, is one of the finest in doujutsu. Within split seconds, this observation eye is capable of exposing to the user all systems of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu, also the movement and attacking path of the opponent, or the opponent's defences against fatal moves, evading movements from the user's attack, etc... These will enhance the overall combat abilities of the user in different situations. This petrifying ability is worthy of the title, "Heaven's Eye".
Plus the ability of copying, Sharingan, can wield its true capabilities... that is to copy and possess jutsus seen only once by the user. Regardless of whether its chakra molding or seals forming, all the under lying physics of the jutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant. In order to weild the jutsu, the user must have sufficient chakra and also an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu.
this came straight from kishi so i guess even he's wrong right?
i know that all uchiha didnt have the sharingan but as i said before they lived in a time of constant war and battles so a there would have been a lot more of them then sasukes past makes sense right?
itachi said that izanami was created to punish uchiha for their arrogance so guess what that means, there must have to be a number of uchiha would had ms or else they wouldnt be able to punish each other. if only a few people had ms than no one would be able to stop or punish them for being arrogant because no one would have the eye power to stand up to them and dont bring up itachi and sasuke because itachi went easy on him and if he was serious he wouldve killed him long ago.
you need to stop and realize that the uchiha are severely over powered, hashirama and madara were on the same level of power or else it wouldnt have been a battle to the death maske sense right? so if there are other sharingan users in the clan how can a clan with no special abilities keep up with them?
As i've said twice before, being rivals doesnt make you equals. just because there someone in your league doesnt mean they can match everything you do. theres always gonna be a number one regardless of how little better they are
Im comparing the skills and bloodlines and the uchiha have the utmost powerful one in the series and you cant deny that
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; June 23, 2012 at 03:48 PM.
Um, Orochimaru experimenting on children doesn't change anything here. The whole reasons for his experiments was in regards to grafting Senju Dna in a Uchiha's body, so that he could gain the Rinnegan and fulfill his goal. He would have had to experiment on them regardless.
- After Kirabi nearly killed him several times.
- You mean the guy who was weakened and not fighting to kill? And Itachi's a different situation.
None of your examples at all show the Sharingan being overpowered or giving Sasuke an instant win. Had Kirabi and Orochimaru been serious, and had Sasuke not had the right nature against Deidara, he would have been killed, regardless of having the Sharingan.
Explain how being able to drop a entire desert on a person, turn an entire area to dust, creating an entire field of bone spears, or a lake of lava, or killing a person with a single touch, or ripping away at a person's cells, or blowing them up, or vaporizing a person is any more Op them knocking a person out with genjutsu?
Don't care. I go with what the manga shows, not with what's said that can be refuted. If you read what you just posted, then you'll see that Uchiha can't copy everything or use everything they copied. There's a limit to copying.Quote:
Sharingan still has a limit, mainly the skills of who wields the Sharingan. While it may enhance the overall combat abilities, it's not gonna give them extra power. Sharingan won't help against a faster opponent if the wielder can't react in time. Sharingan may see through genjutsu, but it's meaningless if the wielder can't break out of the genjutsu. Same with casting genjutsu, it's still up to the wielder. And all that comes with Sharingan with three tomoe. Sasuke had like one or two tomoe but couldn't predict Kyuubi Naruto's path UNTIL he got the third tomoe.
The Naruto Wiki itself says that Sharingan was rare, it never said Sharingan was common or more common during the pre-Konoha era. Despite the war era, the Sharingan may not have been as common and even if it was, it didn't guarantee victory when a person unlocked it in middle of a fight. Even if there was, it still supports my point that Uchiha were either not as haxxed made out to be or Senju were just as haxxed, being able to keep up with Sharingan.Quote:
Odd thing is, Kishi showed how a Sharingan is or can be unlocked, so wtf with makin Sharingan rare, though it can apply to Itachi/Sasuke's time.
MS is not required for Izanagi or Izanami. At least, not required for Izanagi anyway, as Danzou and Tobi proved. Even number of Uchiha did have MS, then the fact that they didn't wipe out Senju or were still equal STILL proves that Uchiha weren't as haxxed or that Senju was just as haxxed, if not more.Quote:
We don't know how common Izanami was. We can deduce that MS wasn't required, as Danzou was able to use Sharingan on his arms, and we saw regular Sharingan on Tobi's eye before it closed.
I don't know. Senju must be even more severely overpowered? Maybe Uchiha isn't as overpowered as you keep making them out to be? I still haven't seen any proof that Uchiha is overpowered.Quote:
Sasuke lost to Rock Lee, had to run from the kage, nearly got killed by Bee twice and got tricked by him, lost to Gaara, lost to Haku, and lost to Sound 4. Madara lost to Hashirama, was never able to kill him in many of their fights before their fight at VotE, and his clan was never able to beat or wipe out Senju, instead settling on a truce. Obito was a loser Uchiha who cried on a mission. Entire Uchiha got wiped out by less than five people.
Even before Hashirama and Madara's time, Senju was keeping up with Uchiha well enough that they survived and was considered each other's rivals.
You don't know who number one was before Hashirama's time, though. We can assume Senju was number one thanks to Hashirama, but before that it's an unknown. We do know that no one clan was more powerful than the other, or that they didn't wipe each other out.Quote:
Senju has the most powerful bloodline in the series. Mokuton beat Madara, subdued the bijuu, and nearly made Hashirama immortal, even if Mokuton did manifest itself in one shinobi that we know so far.
If Uchiha had the most powerful bloodline and the best skill, then why did the Senju last for centuries? You're not helping convince that Senju isn't haxxed or that Uchiha is more haxxed since Senju still existed, despite Sharingan and Uchiha.
Hell, you could consider Hyuuga far superior. Not only do they have better vision (x-ray, 360 degrees), but they also have ability to cut off chakra flow. Even EMS Madara would be dead if his chakra was cut off against an enemy who wanted to kill him. Only jinchuuriki would stand a chance, or at least Naruto, but only if the enemy didn't go straight for the kill.
Of course, considering how fast Madara was, it'd be hard to touch him.
The only time haxx is related to Uchiha is when you're talking about Itachi, unfortunately. Whether ET or as mortal, he showed he was nearly unbeatable, and that only Pain had any chance of beating him. The other Uchiha have not shown the kind of prowess that he did, although who knows how good Itachi would have been at genjutsu without Sharingan. Or at taijutsu.
here's one for you guys...screw this who would win in made up fantasy battles...there are threads for that...
now,of course we can assume that oro was experimenting on the children of konoha(probably for danzou's benefit...and his own"wink").
so, who was the one who informed them that uchiha and senju(sharingan and mokuton)=rinnegan...
now,here's a stab...what if shisui was reading/giving info to danzou from the naka shrine tablet...or was madara oro's first experiments.
could be how he died...could be how kabuto knows so much...
oro worked on danzou and tobi is well aware of it...why couldn't it have been anyother root member(why was he like"damn orochimaru")?
i want to know what's written on that damn tablet...it has been mentioned that the level of your eyes let you see more.
i think this is why madara was sneaking around the shrine before him and itachi's agreement.
he was reading the tablet with the rinnegan....
Kabuto implied that he and Orochimaru guessed how to gain the Rinnegan on their own, though I wouldn't put it past Danzo to have known more. He would have known about the tablet probably and had the tools to read quite a bit of it.
Speaking of which, wasn't there suppose to be more information available for EMS to read? Maybe Sasuke will return eventually and reveal the complete tablet.
this is the only thing i can think of why madara was sneaking around konoha for so long.because if he wanted intel...he could have kidnapped and genjutsued just about anyone he wanted to.
The Sharingan is the best kekkei genkai atm except for the rinnegan, which is supposedly the natural evolution of sharingan. It is foolish to think that mokuton is more powerful than Sharingan because the manga leads us to believe it isn't. Mokuton is just the hability to use wood and trees while the Sharingan grants the best ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu to the user. In a fight of two equally-skilled shinobis, the Uchiha will always win a Senjuu, because the first is using nuclear bombs while the second is just using a gun. The thing here is, the Madara vs Hashirama fight wasn't a fight between equals: Shodaime was better, and that's why he won.
THATS EXACTLY WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING! i know hashirama won its been written but how can any clan match the uchiha is what im wondering. i didnt say the other clans werent strong i said the uchiha had the best abilities and its undeniable. kishi wrote in the databooks that the uchiha were the best and its been proven with the abilitites theyve been popping off.
all i want to know is how can a clan with no abilities match the uchiha? hashi beat madara but it doesnt mean the rest of the clans were the same and he alone had the ability to supress the tailed beast or else all the senju including tsunade would be able to do it.
if youre gonna disregard the databooks which are written by the author which clearly states that the uchiha have the best bloodline than go away. you cant disregard the words of the author because you didnt help write the story, your going on your own beliefs that other clans can match them when its been yet to be seen or written. if you believe another clan can keep up with them than name one that can match them ability, skills and perks wise
Zabuza and Mei showed that the Hidden Mist could blind the Sharingan's sight, Lee and Ee showed that the prediction ability was meaningless if the user couldn't keep up, Naruto showed us how clones can get around the Sharingan's ability, Chiyo told us how two against one was regularly used against the Sharingan's genjutsu threat, Deidara even trained one eye to act as a genjutsu counter, Sasuke and Ee both showed Amaterasu could be evaded, Tsunade showed chakra enhanced strength could damage even Susanoo, and this isn't even factoring in unique abilities like Mei's lava or Gaara's sand. The Uchiha clan being a powerful clan doesn't mean they were untouchable or even that they couldn't be overcome without even needing special powers.
Probably the clan Senjuu as a hole was stronger than Uchiha's at that moment. Which means a lot, because we know both Madara and Izuna had the mangekyo sharingan, which means they were ridiculously powerful. However, again, Senjuu had better trained/more talented ninjas. This is why Hashirama defeated Madara and why Senjuu remained as gobernors of the village and Uchiha remained out of the power positions.
Kid Chameleone, you are wondering how could a senjuu defeat an uchiha while the second has the sharingan, which is clearly a better weapon than mokuton. Well, this is probably because Hashirama were ridiculously talented and knew perfectly how to counter the Sharingan. Also think that Hashirama could control the tailed beasts, and could literally put the Earth against his enemy. It is difficult to fight against a hole forest, even if u are Madara.
i'm thinking that madara found this place as a safehouse/hold up...in which he may have just looked the tablet over and noticed he could read more.because how else would any other uchiha know about that...tobi i think was the one who mentioned it.Quote:
as far as nagato goes...we were never shown the relationship him and itachi had,until they were ETed.i just remember the debates of"if nagato read the tablet or not for tobi/madara"...
but,i'm sure this tablet issue will come up again...because why would itachi bring it up.instead of saying he seen madara sneaking around konoha and broke thru the defenses(leave it at that).but,goes on to say that"madara inspected/checked out the shrine"...again...why????
here you go from(i know)narutopedia...it's mentioned here too:
now what secrets are there of madara's body...wow...and i hope kakashi gets a look at this thingy.secrets for the mangekyo...this goes back to when i brought up this in the main chap thread.will kakashi develop the S/T jutsu like tobi...they are the only two with"god's power"kamui.Quote:
Last edited by gnut; June 24, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
Where did he write in the databooks that the Uchiha was the best? Obviously, if they were the best, they'd have wiped out Senju before Hashirama was born. If they were the best, they wouldn't have been defeated by three or four people, even if two of them had Sharingan and one was the prodigy of Uchiha.
You said you considered Uchiha "haxxed" because they had skills only available to them. That sentence alone proves that you're biased against the Uchiha, and no matter what is said, you'll remain biased against them. Otherwise you should accuse Hyuuga of being haxxed, or Raikage and his dad, or Gaara and his dad, or many other clans like Yamanaka who can switch minds.
All I want to know is, how did Senju manage to be on par with Uchiha for centuries before Hashirama's time. It means a lot when Senju and Uchiha were never dominant over each other, and that they were the only ones who could fight each other. You can argue all you want, but this was shown before Hashirama's time as well considering Senju survived for centuries warring with Uchiha.Quote:
If you can't provide manga proof that we can see, not read, then that just shows the strength of your argument. Everyone relies on databooks when they have no other way to support their argument, whether it's versus thread or whatnot.Quote:
I'm not going on my own beliefs. I'm going with what the manga itself has shown. It has shown us and told us that Senju and Uchiha were among the top clans and were hired by opposite faction because no other clan like Hyuuga could take on Uchiha OR Senju. I'm going on Tobi's story of how Senju and Uchiha have fought each other for centuries, but no one clan was devastated or wiped out.
Hyuuga is more haxxed than Uchiha. It's been said that not all Uchiha can get Sharingan, but we have seen Hyuuga acquiring Byakugan at early age. Not only that, but with training and Byakugan, as shown with Neji, they can have one of the best defense and be able to disable their opponents like what Neji did to Naruto. Plus, they can see through objects at certain range, see chakra, and among some skilled ones, see teneketsu!
Unlike Uchiha, Senju were stated to have varied skills. There could have been some Senju that were great at genjutsu, some great with taijutsu, some with high speed, etc. You're using lack of knowledge on most Senju as an excuse to show that Uchiha is haxxed, which doesn't work.
... really? REALLY? If Sharingan is a better weapon than Mokuton, HOW did Hashirama beat Madara? Not only that, but he overpowered Madara's control of the Kyuubi with his own. Hashirama cna be an example of most Senju - good at genjutsu, good with taijutsu if he fought with Madara head to head, good with ninjutsu, and not just based on Mokuton, and he had tons of chakra.Quote:
Manga, databook, and Naruto Wiki states that Sharingan was rare even among Uchiha. Stop acting as if most or all Uchiha unlocked Sharingan.
And answer me this: if Uchiha was really "haxxed," then how did Senju survive against Uchiha and even be considered as their rival BEFORE HASHIRAMA'S TIME? Before Hashirama was born, before his father was even born.
And Senjuu clan as a hole being better, doesn't mean one senjuu fighter will always be better than one uchiha fighter. In fact, the manga points to the opposite direction, and I don't need to show "manga proof" because everyone that has seen the series can understand the sharingan is superior to mokuton. Uchiha should be/are better shinobi than senjuu due to their kekkei genkai being better, BUT Hashirama was strong enough to defeat someone with a better kekkei than him.
Senjuu probably survived prior to Hashirama simply because, as you said yourself, almost all senjuu could use mokuton and almost none uchiha could use the sharingan (and not to mention the MS). This doesn't make Senju intrinsically better by any means.
Great power comes with a great price. The Uchiha have the best kekkei so far, but also suffer great consequences.
and this is why senju could keep up and come to a truce...the fact that you are not hearing is...not all uchiha had sharingan(period,not ms or ems)sharigan period...Quote:
senju had variious techs just like the sharingan has various tech...it only makes sense.senju were superior because of the stamina issue and of course an uchiha could take advantage with there eyes.but,we have what we have and that's:
the two sons fought=who won...the clans both survived
years of fighting/massacres/other clans extinctions=who won...both clans survived
madara(the strongest uchiha)vs hashirama(the strongest senju)=hashirama won...both clans survived
now there is sasuke and naruto(close relation to senju)...both clans representatives.
kekkei genkais mean not if one does not use their head...plus again(beating a dead horse)not all uchihas had such KG....
No it is not. Sasuke trained for a month but couldn't keep up with Rock Lee's level of speed, he got tired fast enough. Which again brings us back to the particular Uchiha needing the skills. If they don't have the endurance or stamina, they won't be able to do high-speed taijutsu for long, IF they even have the speed to do so. Uchiha doesn't have the best ninjutsu either. Amaterasu? Sasuke and Raikage managed to avoid Amaterasu. Tsukuyomi? Bee and Danzou managed to break it. Susano'o? Raikage, Tsunade, and Danzou have broken Susano'o before, whether riblets or skeletal version. Their genjutsu can still be broken out of.
And all that's assuming IF they get Sharingan. Doesn't look "haxx" to me.
Yes, you do need to show manga proof because we have seen Mokuton beat EMS once and for all. We have seen a copy Mokuton user stand being stabbed with a chidori sword without suffering serious injury. Senju as a whole being better would not matter if Uchiha was "haxxed," they'd still be beaten.
No, Senju were good enough to keep up with Uchiha. Nothin to do with "haxx," it just looks like an excuse to hate on Uchiha. If someone was "haxx," like Naruto, it wouldn't matter how good their opponents were, they'd still win. And why are people ignoring the fact that their kekkei genkai means nothing if it's not activated? Seriously getting annoyed with people ignoring the fact that Sharingan was rare among Uchiha. Basically, most Uchiha fought without having have activated their Sharingan.
I never said all Senju could use Mokuton. We don't even know if they could, especially since it was said Mokuton was very rare. It could jsut as very well be Uchiha weren't "haxxed" or Senju were more "haxxed."
They don't necessarily have the best kekkei. At least back in Part I, it wasn't the best. Madara may not have been able to do anything against Kimimaro, and he certainly had trouble with Gaara, Oonoki, and Naruto.