Kyuubi on the countrary killed ninjas left and right.
Also what you said would be true in an open warfare, an attack from inside would provoke great damage before anyone would be even alerted. An army doesn't mobilize overnight, and the Hokage can't coordinate his ninjas if they are cut out.
That ( Naruto with the Kyuubi shroud was way faster than Sasuke which was equal to Lee, despite the Sharingan ), and Lee himself being unable to do a thing to Neji even without weights ( also remember when Lee lost his weights? Neji was impassible ).Quote:
That and Lee requiring 5 Gates to overwhelm Neji, proving that even the Omote Renge was ineffective.
Kakashi is an elite regardless, when I say noob or fodder I mean ninjas like Iruka, for example.
I call them fodder because Itachi, at 13 ( so without all his fancy ablities, without 8 years of fighting and missions in Akatsuki ) was the strongest of the clan. I don't doubt that Itachi at 13 was stronger than most, but it still remains this fact.
As an example, Neji was said to be a prodigy beyond any other in the Hyuuga clan, yet we saw in the invasion that Hiashi was ten times stronger, compare the size of the Kaitens
Tobi was stronger than that Iwa Jounin?Quote:
No, he was weaker, yet the Sharingan let him kill him.
Also Deidara and Zabuza are not normal ninjas, heck Deidara was an S rank ninja that trained for years his eye to counter only the genjutsu ability, and Zabuza had an ultra convenient ability plus Haku's insight.
Same with A and Bee, they are the elite of the elite, I doubt that Senjus were all S rank ninjas, it would also make no sense why they are reduced only to Tsunade today. That, or maybe the Senju were all the major clans in Konoha congregated ( the ones with an Hijutsu, like Naras ), in which case it would make sense
The OP says that beyond the battle prowess of but a handful of shinobi, neither clan has proven their weight in gold. This is true, however the Uchiha of Itachi's era were a far cry from those of yesteryear; having grown accustomed to their comfortable lifestyle, afforded to them on the merit the of past deeds and for other more obvious reasons. The establishment of Konoha's ninja academy, with 'the will of fire' at the heart of its teachings, was another damaging blow to the Uchiha in that it allowed other clans to at least be level in basic techniques and benefit from shared knowledge and experiences. The Senju on the other hand, seem to have been completely assimilated into Konohagakure, and therefore no longer exist in a form that we can use for comparison.
Now without drawing reference to who has the greater arsenal of god-tier jutsu. It's clear that Hashirama and Madara are like yin and yang, and the 'will of fire' was most likely the only thing that really separated them. I'd even go as far as to say that Madara was probably the stronger of the two, but fell short in understanding where a shinobi's true strength comes from.
You really think growing in size would make a difference in a fight where Mangekyo Sharingan, Wood Release, Instant Healing and Tailed Beats are concerned??
Its not even an argument.
---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------
Being an Edo summon probably has nothing to do with it. Sasuke's not an Edo summon, yet he uses his MS techniques just as much, and Itachi is an Edo summon, but doesn't "spam" them.
Their father and the rest of the police corp was also considered elite. What fancy abilities didn't Itachi have? He would have had MS by that point. And Itachi would have had seven years of battle experience, including in the Anbu, which is probably more then he would have gotten in Akatsuki given they only recently began to act. Itachi at that age was stronger then most, including a Sannin. So being weaker then Itachi still would have left plenty of room to be stronger then others. Also, Neji was a prodigy because he was able to figure out Kaiten on his own without being taught it.
Zabuza and Deidara are normal ninjas in the sense that their techniques aren't Bloodline Limits and they don't have huge chakra pools. Any ninja would be capable of using the Hidden Mist or Clay techniques, thus granting them the same advantages. The Senju knew a multitude of techniques, meaning odds are one would have given then a similar advantage. And I mentioned Ee and Kisame as an example of what people with large chakra pools could be capable of. Naruto would be another example. He's hardly been the est fighter, but he's been able to get around that by relying on costly techniques. A combination of the right techniques and the chakra to waste would make anyone dangerous, regardless of their actual fighting ability.
The Senju can't be a congregation of all the major clans, as the Senju is a specific bloodline linked back to the Rikudou Sennin. The rest of Konoha may have been allies of the clan, but they couldn't have been related to them.
Or could the ANBU be in all the places every Uchiha would be? I agree that the main threat was the clan as a whole, but the fact that it would be a civil war, inside Konoha's walls, would be greatly advantageous for them.
Also I don't expect to convince, in a day, all the clans in Konoha that Uchihas were traitors to be easy
I was talking about Naruto when he was solely under Kyuubi's influence, before Sasuke awakened the third tomoe, that was a stage similar to the one Neji faced.Quote:
Also it wasn't showed, but it was implied since Lee spoke time and time again how he couldn't stand a chance against Neji. And that without kaiten nor that 64 heavenly strikes, since he was training in secret with them.
As for his status as prodigy, it wasn't because he taught himself Kaiten and the 64 strikes, but also because his Byakugan could see, at 13, tenketsus, which was implied to be ultra rare, if not unique.
I doubt Itachi was as strong, as fast, as skilled at 13 like he was at 19 when he was showed for the first time, Sasuke remarked that Itachi was superior to Fugaku regardless of his MS, or any forbidden jutsu like Izanami.
Again I agree that Itachi always was an odd case, but hell, its harsh when a 13 years old makes the rest of the clan look like shit.
You totally read my mind, I wrote Tobi instead of Obito lolQuote:
What you are saying is true regardless, not only for the Senjus but also for Uchihas.
Many of the jutsus that Senju would use, Uchihas would simply copy, also don't forget that Zabuza's Kirigakure no jutsu is so lethal because he is the master of silent killing, can move without a sound and can move smoothly without seeing, to date only him is capable of something like that, hell he is the equivalent of a sensor.
I doubt all Senjus were born with whatever abilities Senju shared, and them being a founding clan, and the one of the 100 jutsus it would make sense for some of them to use some of those Hijutsu and found their own clan.
It would explain why every clan in Konoha bar the uchihas seems so willing to be Senju's lapdogs, despite the less than optimal leadership in Konoha regardless of the Hokage ( the only Hokage that didn't screw up was Yondaime, and only because he was Hokage for a short time, give him some years and he would've screwed up too )
Whoever started this thread I guess will be pretty stubborn sticking with Madara. But i can tell you that only a flashback can solve this question. Basing with the canon manga will be insufficient as of now. We have seen most of Madara's abilities which are really imba strong. But he wouldn't say that "Only Hashrima can Stop me" for no reason. The quality of Hashrima's techniques, they way he used them, all the intangibles that he had during that epic battle against Madara is incomparable to how the 5 kages moved and used their techniques.
When the Hashirama and Tobirama were summoned by Oro against Third, they were just emotioneless puppets and can never fully resemble them 100%. And to think that third is called as "God of the Shinobi", that would've meant something. The little thing we know of Hashirama's abilities is probably not enough that he could win againts Madara but he is who he is and for that Madara respects him and he was able to defeat him in a fair and square long and tiring battle. Who knew what Hashrima did but what we know of right now is that he used techniques and abilities in their best potential that defeated Madara.
Why not? Logically he had already reached his peak then, thus why he was praised and such. And shit is a little strong. All we know is that Itachi was stronger. But there was nothing suggesting the rest of the strong members were that far below him. Even Sasuke stated that as good as Itachi was, he couldn't have taken the entire police force out on his own, so the difference couldn't have been that much.
Whether they were born with special abilities or not, they still would have had to be related to each other, otherwise their relationship to the Uchiha, not to mention Uzumaki clan, wouldn't make sense. They wouldn't have been able to inherit anything from the Rikudou Sennin and past it down. Not to mention that we were told that several of the clans in Konoha had been under the Uchiha command before the village was created.
It's just like in any RPG game fighting with a boss monster. Bosses are very strong but if you have enough health and mana pots, you'll be able to defeat it.
Hashirama have very high amount of chakra and healing ability. So even if Madara had stronger jutsus, he would still run out of chakra and his body will weaken from the damages he receives from Hashirama no matter how little they are. Hashirama on the other hand doesn't run out of chakra that easily and the damages he gets heal rapidly.
12 of them can't surveil a clan, expecially if said clan has a fancy eye that can see chakra.
As for the other clans, how would they be convinced? By word of the elders? What proof did they had? Itachi's mission was a top-secret one
How Kyuubi's chakra gives an advantage underwater?Quote:
Naruto was too fast for Sasuke, and it probably helped Sasuke achieve the third tomoe, like it did against Haku.
As for Neji, if he could beat Lee time and time again without a defence like Kaiten or any ranged jutsu, it would've meant that they had comparable speed, hell if Neji was slower how could he touch Lee?
Kakashi had the dogs, not his own sense of smell, and the trick succeded only because Kakashi's blood was on Zabuza's weapon.Quote:
Also, we only mentioned elite Jounins ( Kakashi, Zabuza ) or Kage level nin.
How many of those ninjas the Senjus would have? And of these, how many would specialize in anti-visual abilities? How many characters are shown to be as fast as A, or as strong as Oonoki?
There is nothing regular about them
Well, I would argue that the sheer scale of hashirama's attacks made it possible. Madara fought hashirama with only his MS though so he was not quite as strong back them to say the least. Now, even with this ultimate susanoo odds are that the sheer scale of hashirama's attacks was enough to make a difference. So we have an ultimate susanoo against constantly growing plants, polems, perhaps even plant related poison, and immortality. I think it makes sense hashirama would have been able to fight this guy although it is possible he had even more going for him (who knows, maybe immortality is overrated).
There's no way Hashirama is " immortal " (or can heal his wounds non stop), there has to be some limits to his regeneration powers. Also, I doubt his Mokuton would be enough to defeat Madara's complete Susanoo, Hashirama must had something else to beat Madara, Mokuto doesn't seem " destructive " to pierce it.
---------- Post added at 04:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------
Another thing about the chapter is that madara explicitely says the susanoo is about as powerful as a biju. One of those things which hashirama reportedly could fight.
tsunade's mitotic regeneration required handseals and special activation.
hashirama, if he used no seals at all, would mean he's healing passively and naturally (like naruto did when he was fighting sasuke at the valley of the end) from pure chakra overload
hashirama could have had chakra levels rivalling that of a bijuu (we already have kisame and the raikage with these, so it's very possible hashirama had something equivalent or higher when he was alive)
---------- Post added at 03:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 AM ----------
i doubt he was in susanoo the entire fight, or a huge majority of it
it would be the worst decision ever in a fight, to splurge ur chakra in one such moment against an immortal equivalent like hashirama, who would survive it and then proceed to rape you.
madara was way more than just his MS. he was a great ninja and i don't think he would have used susanoo until the very end as a last ditch effort
---------- Post added at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 AM ----------
here we go
Tsunade stated she invented the technique
Madara confirmed he's never heard of it or seen it
this means Hashirama could do what Tsunade's mitotic regeneration could do WITHOUT the technique
remember the scene where naruto's lung was pierced by sasuke and he healed it in seconds? I think hashirama was somehting like that
i want to see an official flashback!
Both Madara and Hashirama appear as if they have had a high chakra capacity, with Hashirama likely being comparable to the likes of Ee and Kisame. I doubt they wouldn't have been capable of using many costly techniques in a single battle, especially when we've seen Sasuke with his average chakra do just that.