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They are NOT the same. The raw power is increased since they are created with senjutsu chakra. He can just control how big he makes it. What you think that a rasengan of that size with normal chakra is just as powerfull like a rasengan of that size with senjutsu chakra? The raw power is obviously increased like any other crep that runs on senjutsu chakra. Its not possible for that rasengan to NOT be more powerfull considering what chakra is used.
Minato reacted well to Raikage? Are you joking? Remove ST and his head would be on the floor... That is not reacting good... That is using an instant action to save your but. 2x times in a row he was only able to react after Raikage run a HUGE distance and when he was close to impaling his face.
As for the distance it would be like any other distance where the fight started in this manga(close to), close enough for Raikage to decapitate them. Of course the OP changed stuff to avoid a stomp ... When the OP does not state the starting distance is the standard distance that we get in the manga.
Raikage had some 10m between him and Minato and Minato almost got decapitated. NOBODY aside from Minato was able to avoid that. Then it is again stated with Naruto the same thing.
The draw from the 8 tails and Raikage was because of bad luck as Raikage won that. Now you are missing 1 important factor. Right now going by the OP Raikage is WAY faster... He is as fast as the 4'th...
Add something else to your premise. Tsuk is going to ride on Raikage just like in the manga for speed and excelent combos. Imagine Raikage charging in all directions, stoping and Tsuk releasing HUGE blasts on the other team and then moving in some other place before they can counter.
Deidara can stay in the sky, who gives a shit as Tsuk and Raikage are protected by the Raiton armour... What is that guy going to do when Raiton>doton and his tech is doton?
Raikage can and has moved his cloack to cover Tsuk to if i remember right.
Now they can't repicate Naruto's feat because:
1-They don't have the raw power Naruto has.
2-They don't have the same raw power in rasengan Naruto has.
3-They don't have reflexes or speed to pull it of because they need sensing ability that SM grants and this is faster then the 3'th speed, its the 4'th.
This time Raikage is not the somewhat slower version of the 3'th, its the 4'th Raikage speed, the same speed that made Minato into a statue and same for Sasuke.
Bee is not going to blast Tsuk as Tsuk is going to be riding in Raikage.... Bee would just be target practice.
Minato is missing:
1-Naruto stg in SM to trow a huge summon into orbit.
2-Better Rasengan created with senjutsu chakra.
3-Special sensing abilities granted by SM.
Then we have the fact that this Raikage is using the 4'th speed that is WAY faster. Not sure if even Naruto could pull that move off if the 3'th is charging with the 4'th speed...
Now look at Raikage + Tsuk fight with Madara, Tsuk is going to be riding on Raikage and blasting crep. Also how would Minato place a tag on Raikage considering he would need to go trough his Raiton shield? Don't tell me his hand is that strong?
Last edited by xXan; June 19, 2012 at 12:56 AM.
Bee is NOT as fast as his brother, not even close. He can keep up with no shunshin casual speed Raikage... But that is irrelevant, when Raikage would charge he will charge at full speed.
Also he is taking nothing. Raikage with that super cut move + combo from old man would blast trough Samehada and trough his charka shield... The damn move with no added blast from Tsuk was able to do what FRS was unable to.
Also those clones where used only in full biju mode if i remember right and they where only used as sealing.
A few matters....
I have no memory of A extending his cloak over Oonoki. And without some sort of evidence to suggest that he can, I'm not willing to accept that. If you could point to the moment at which he did so, it would be greatly appreciated. Raikage's elemental advantage over Deidara is relevant only if he is able to stop Deidara's bombs from exploding. He has to come in contact with them, or use some lightning based attack to defuse them. And so Deidara is a factor in the battle. I doubt that even with A's speed that the Raikage would be able to take out a host of bombs before Deidara detonated them.Quote:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/553/13 (next chapter you can see the distance more clearly: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/554)
And i can keep adding links but i got bored. They are not the same distance obviously but the starting distance is close enough to allow Raikage to blitz them. Well at least Deidara. If the OP states nothing about the starting distance then we draw from the above links and many other fights in this manga and make an estimated, general distance from the 2 individuals. Look at the links and think about the other, lots of other fights and consider the starting distance and make an educate gues yourself. The distance would be somewhere between 10 to 15m or so. Even starting with the firtst chapters where it was Naruto vs that guy with the scrool, vs Sasuke, vs Kiba, vs Neji then Neji and the rest of guys vs the Rain guys (when tring to get Sasuke back) and so on. Its a general distance people start, you don't see people starting a fight from a football field in distance. Just use all of the fights and make an educated calculation on a general starting distance by comparing all the fight(or most of them). Ex. if we have 10m, 15m, 15m, 20m, 10m the general distance would be around 15m (the clear number is 14 but we are working with estimates here, its cumulated number is 70 then divided by 5(as we have 5 distances) you get 14).
Of course we have no such rule on the forums but it makes more then enough sense to me, its better then arguing all day on the starting distance... You are of coruse free to disagree and its not really relevant as the OP put that new rule in with the starting distance of this fight. Also keep in mind he edited the starting distance AFTER i posted this. At first we had nothing to go by.... I am not trying to argue with the rules he posted but with those he did not.
Here we have Raikage extending his cloack over Tsuk:Quote:
Now asuming the bombs go off what exacly are they going to do to a man tanking biju's FRS and other crep like nothing? Also he does not need to go for the bombs, he goes for Deidara himself and rips his head off before he can form a handseal or Tsuk on his back usses some long range move. The only thing making this a fight is the starting distance the OP put in(again it was not from the start only later after we already argued oveer it). But even so its not going to take long to get close to them and Deidara taking to the sky is not going to help when Tsuk on Raikage's back is going to make Raikage fly (and fly very fast) or shoot crep at him... Deidara has nothing on them. The explosion would also be outrun or just tanked with Raikage's shield protecting the both of them. Even if its something like c0 that he can't use here and asuming it goes trough the shield Tsuk just needs to be behind Raikage and he is fine lol. If the shield goes down the body sure will not.
Last edited by xXan; June 19, 2012 at 07:42 AM.
Also, Naruto's Rasengan against the Third didn't damaged him, he redirected his arm, unless you believe Yondaime's rasengan being so weak not to even touch and alter the direction of an arm
Hiraishin doesn't make him faster in his reaction time, it makes him even slower than a normal reaction that can be Naruto's shunshin.Quote:
in order to dodge, all Naruto have to do is seeing the attack, and move.
Yondaime has to see the attack, activate the jutsu, decide when to reappear, and move.
Naruto had it easier
Where it is stated that 3rd < 4th ?Quote:
Fanbase assumption since Naruto in Sage Mode dodged him ( with ppl believing Naruto <<<<< Sasuke in speed, reaction time or anything ) when in reality Naruto himself compared the two saying that both are super fast, and later seeing that Sage Mode >> Sharingan in sensing attacks to evade them.
Also bad luck? When and how? All the 3rd had was a scar, they did draw beforehand since they fell after the battle was over
This is a valid argument, and a dangerous strategy for the second team since Hell Fingers do not seem to require arm strenght so Tsuchikage can make the Third lighter regardless without worrying about him not doing damage.Quote:
Don't know if anyone has the reflexes to deal with that
Bijuudama has the range of explosion of a mountain, good luck avoiding an explosion of that extent, really.Quote:
Also Sasuke being a sitting duck doesn't mean a thing, the only one he outsped was Deidara, which was a long-range fighter to begin with, so really don't see a point in bringing him.
As it stands, Yondaime reacted well to A, so he would do the same against the 3rd
Because 1 was a robot and Kishi could go nuts with. The other was not. Robot had CLEAR better durability getting hit by huge punches (Choji and his father), Chidori and so on. The Rasengan its clearly more powerfull as it has senjutsu chakra, its not posible not to. Anything from human flesh to jutsu are more powerfull with that chakra in it.Quote:
To redirect the arm the force of the rasengan, the force of Naruto's arm would all be applied. Now considering Minato does not have so much force in his arms to trow an animal into orbit or the force of a SM rasengan is am going on a limb and claiming he CAN'T. Perhaps he will redirect it a little bit but not enough, not even close. Its like the diference of shooting 1 nuke to redirect a asteroid or 10. 1 is going to move it but not much or not as much as 10 (considering its big enough obviously).
That is the problem right there. He was NOT able to react. He moved his entire body instantly. He was just able to notice the hit when it was almost to late. That is not reacting, well not more then Sasuke in part 1 vs Lee when Lee told him that his eyes can follow but not his body.Quote:
Naruto did not had it easier. To move your limbs can't be done faster then instantly teleporting out of the way. How long it takes for him to choose a point to teleport to i don't know but its defenetly not more impresive in the ability to think of poping in X place then moving YOUR ENTIRE BODY. Your brain could be fast enough but not your body. Just like Lee and Sasuke in the example i gave you. Its 1 think for you brain to make a decision and another for your limbs to start moving. Also just moving the body would allow Raikage to make corecctions and follow with his arm. Minato would defenetly die as his normal speed can't posibly compare to Raikage in close combat. If he does not keep distance with ST he is DEAD.
Another example. Sasuke could not react to Raikage and so he used Amaterasu on Susano so he can't be hit (even Karin state it). Not really relevant how much faster or slower Minato is compared to Sasuke, the example is about what Minato reactions is, is the absense of the ability to deal with Raikage in a convetional way and his reaction is based on a jutsu that works instantly. What you are using there is not really reacting and defenetly not "good".
Oh its simple. The 4'th stated to be behind only Minato and now that Minato is dead he is number 1. I am sure he would have said something about his father but to make it short proide feats to display his speed up with Raikage. Hell Tsunade was left Oo when Naruto was keeping up with Raikage because his RM and she noticed Naruto's SM. Yes he is fast and what not in SM but not RM fast obviously.Quote:
The scar was the bad luck part. He fell in his own blasted jutsu. He won that as he was able to stop the biju going nuts. Well i gues it depends on how you look at the event and what you consider as win.
Oh its very easy to dodge for someone with this speed. Gues where is the 1 spot where the bomb is not going to hit? Yes that is right, just behind the biju lol. When it starts to build up the blast just go behind its head, the blast hits in front of it and you are safe behind it. You just need to time it right.Quote:
Sasuke was more then once put up for his speed and he has a sharingan. He is a valid example and not only that the example was in direct corelation with Deidara... If Deidara has big problems with his speed what do you think Raikage is going to do.
Again, remove ST and Minato is dead. He reacted well but only when it comes for his brain noticing the attack (and only after a long charge, like in some 10m or so). That is not "well" that is "damn close" and only because he can instantly move out of the way, like his entire body. If not for that he would be roade kill.
Last edited by xXan; June 19, 2012 at 08:31 AM.
Thank you. It seems that you were correct. It appears as though A is capable of extending his cloak around another individual, and so it would seem likely that the Third would be able to do the same. Deidara's bombs may not be able to cause injury, but it doesn't mean they have no effect on the battle. The concussive force of the bombs could still be used defensively, as diversions or as a tool to separate Oonoki from the Raikage. As to attacking Deidara, he has shown tremendous evasive abilities in the air and as such I believe him capable of avoiding Oonoki's dust release techs and Oonoki & Raikage's dual flight physical attacks. I'd also like to point out that in the air the Raikage is most exposed simply because he doesn't have anywhere near the same speed as he would have with his feet on the ground. It would provide an excellent opportunity for one of Minato's clones to take advantage of.Quote:
He had endurance, so? It doesn't change the fact that 2 Rasengans in Sage Mode didn't blow up anything.
Also good goind by using that example, I do believe ( and the manga never suggested otherwise ) that Yondaime's rasengan to be comparable to Naruto's, not Naruto's one being 10 times stronger.
I didin't really understand, you're saying that without Hiraishin Yondaime is dead.Quote:
He has Hiraishin, he dodged A with Hiraishin, so I really don't see how that means anything. Also, just reminding you, A and the Third's speed also derived from a jutsu, so saying that Yondaime was saved only because of Hiraishin is like saying that the Third is fast only because of Raiton Armour.
True, but not relevant, nor useful in a debate.
Also if he wasn't able to react, then why he wasn't hit?
Same Naruto that, in chakra mode, not only wasn't able to be faster than the Third, but that clearly compared the two.Quote:
As for Raikage saying that, well duh, his father died when he was young, how could he compare himself to a dead man?
The battle ended as a draw, is not a matter of prospective.Quote:
They drawed, and Hachibi was sealed, how that means the Third winning their battle? Is like saying Tobi won the battle against Yondaime, Tobi accomplished his goal, yet he was bested in combat.
Those are two unrelated things
Where does it is stated that Tsuchikage begins on top of the Third?Quote:
Also keep in mind the distance, again.
If it is done your way, the moment tsuchikage goes on the Third's back and uses his jutsu they are already obliterated by a Bijuudama, since I do believe Oonoki is not gifted with Instant Transmission, and required to actually activate his jutsu to make it work.
As for Deidara, does Raikage know Kage Bushin? How does he blitzes Yondaime, Deidara and Bee at the same time?
Or he is so fast he can go back in time and do it over and over again?
Remove Raiton Armour, and Raikage is fodder at best, remove Dust Jutsus and Oonoki is a noob, remove Sage Mode and Jiraiya doesn't stand a chance, remove the Hachibi and Bee becomes a good Jounin, remove clay and Deidara is toast.
What kind of reasonement is that?
Minato's rasengan doesn't need to be in SM, it's strong enough. Minato needs enough strength that the arm goes back on itself and stabs the Raiakge.
Minato doesn't need the special sensing abilities, his reflexes are pretty fast, and he has Hiraishin. Special sensing abilities gave Naruto the reflexes he needed to avoid Raikage's attack at the last minute and hit him with the rasengan at the right time. Minato wouldn't need that since he's pretty fast.
If Minato's moving and knows of Raikage's speed, he may not be caught off guard. Second time, he could have reacted if he wanted to (I forgot, actually), but chose to teleport at last moment behind Bee.Quote:
Couldn't he put it on the shield? The shield looks to be tangible enough, and Killerbee could take out the shield long enough for Raikage himself to be tagged.
As for an attack to hurt him, a Rasengan to the face or throat should do plenty of damage even with a tough body.
It doesn't look like even injuries in base mode will stop Raikage for too long. Not sure if it's due to ET, but FRS didn't keep Raikage down as long as it should have, though that could be because the sealers were too late. Raikage didn't even look affected by Temari's wind jutsu other than few scratches. Too bad we haven't seen Raikage be hit in throat or anything when he was taking on those shinobi.
Ee and Tsunade survived, but they looked damaged... rereading it, only Tsunade appeared to be hurt.
Well even if they can't injure him enough to stop him, just causing some internal injuries or allowing the C4 to enter his body should me that he'll eventually fall. Even slowing him down long enough for one of Kirabi's ink clones to take hold of him should be good enough. It won't matter how tough he is once he's sealed.