I was rereading the chuunin exam when i noticed something I didn't quite piece together before.
From the start, we've always attributed Naruto's stamina/chakra to the kyuubi. With the kyuubi chakra, he has done stupidly incredible feats like 1000 kage bunshins.
I just realised one thing here. Orochimaru sealed the kyuubi chakra further and prevented Naruto from using it during the chuunin exams. Naruto only got it unsealed by Jiraiya after at the hot springs training.
Naruto still managed to create a mass kage bunshin attack, then 3 kage bunshins and use the clones to disguise the other 3 with the henge jutsu.
He didn't do it as well as when he did it in chapter 1 (mass kage bunshin and no sign of weariness, or not shown anyway), and he got significantly weaker at the end of it, but he still managed a mass kage bunshin spammage with his own chakra (assuming Orochimaru sealed off the kyuubi entirely)
That is something that even jonins can't do. Kakashi himself and the sandaime hesitated to create even 2 kage bunshins in battle stating that it was impractical. Naruto created heaps of them with his chakra alone and still managed to have them fight with sufficient physical integrity
The Kyuubi's chakra long time effects were still there. just not the constant flow going into Naruto's body. WHen Gaara lost Shukaku he could still use the sand because of teh long time effect of Ichibi's chakra onto Naruto's metabolism.
It's not because you stop smoking that the effects automatically disappear, to make it short. Creating a thousand clones, for a genin isn't normal at all, it even isn't for an adult jounin. Naruto being an Uzumaki can't explain such a thing, Kyuubi's chakra long time effects can.
hashirama was renowned for his stamina, something the senju and uzumaki as blood relatives seem to share. the former was known for their capabilities at using so many skills on the battlefield they were called the thousand hands, and the latter was known for their longevity. both feats are linked strongly to stamina/life force availability.
It could also be the reason kushina was chosen for the kyuubi in the first place, and also the reason naruto was deemed compatible with it
many could argue that naruto never got to shine int he chakra department because the kyuubi constantly leeched his chakra, and this is one of the few times when the kyuubi chakra was isolated from his own and him sitll managing such incredible feats
---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------
by the way, gaara's dad could use gold dust in a similar fashion but he was never stated to have been a jinchuuriki
we still do not know for certain if gaara's sand manipulation is attributed entirely to shukaku or not
also, it has been stated that the automatic sand protection is from his mother, not from the ichibi
Naruto's stamina isn't solely attributable to the Kyuubi. Naruto's stamina, even without the Kyuubi, has been suggested to be superior to the vast majority of characters. The use of his Kyuubi chakra simply extends his advantage over others in terms of chakra from reasonable to ridiculous. It is likely that stamina is one of the factors that determines potential hosts.
Saying that, like you have mentioned, Naruto being an Uzumaki gave him a great deal of chakra to start off with and having the Kyuubi enhanced that over time, to the point now where Naruto can create 1000's of clones, hundred of Rasengan's, and perform numerous other straining feats all in the course of one battle.
In truth, it's essentially reasonable to say that Naruto really has no limit now that the Kyuubi can freely give him charka whenever he wishes. AND he has Sage Mode which saves him chakra since Sage chakra only requires half of his chakra for techniques, with the other half being Natural Energy.
just saying for once we have clear evidence of naruto having great stamina without any ambiguity of it being attributable to the kyuubi at all. whilst everything else is arguable and unclear, this is the first irrefutable evidence that naruto has legendary chakra without the kyuubi's assistance
---------- Post added at 01:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 AM ----------
look at how kakashi frequently attributed naruto's stamina to the kyuubi in the storyline
the kyuubi's influence whilst being an active sealed soul is so huge that any chakra feats are easily and statistically attributable to the kyuubi itself.
from what i just realised though, the chuunin exam itself was the only clear irrefutable evidence of naruto's stamina without the kyuubi
in short: i agree with you. just pointing out that we finally have explicit evidence that naruto could be another hashirama (in terms of stamina) even without the crutch that is kyuubi
Hashirama was unique for his outstanding stamina, even by Senju Standards, to the point his life force, like Orochimaru's cells, had parasitic properties. Just like Madara and Izuna were outstanding for their vast and strong chakra, even by Uchiha standards, to the point where Madara could even summon the whole Kyuubi (not just the Yin part) and and still have enough power/stamina to fight Hashirama. Those 3 were the exception among the already exceptional Uchiha and Senju Clans. But the only Uzumaki who we've seen displaying monstrous stamina/chakra pool is Nagato but he had both Uchiha and Senju/Uzumaki genetic properties, making him complete like the Rikudou Sennin. And Karin, although it's true that she isn't a super duper ninja to say the least, doesn't display impressive chakra/stamina even if her chakra has seriously good regenerative properties. So implying that naruto could be like them or better without Kyuubi is exaggeration, I would say.
Throughout the manga it was both implied and explicitly said that Naruto'S abormally huge stamina and chakra was cause by the Kyuubi's chakra constantly and even increasingly (as the Seal was naturally weakening) leaking into Naruto's organism and making it way stronger than he should normally have. Even Sasuke, who while being an Uchiha and displayed even enough chakra to be able to use Chidori at 12 while not being near as well trained as Kakashi at 13 (when he developped that jutsu) thanks to his Uchiha metabolism didn't display near as much chakra as Naruto could. Gerotora, Jiraiya, Kakashi and other well informed people explained how the Kyuubi's chakra was the source of Naruto's seriously abnormal stamina.
Plus confirmation from the 1st Databook about Naruto's seriously huge chakra being cause by Kyubi strenghtening his body and own chakra to that point.
Kushina was chosen in her village because she had a very special chakra whose properties reminds us of both Hashirama's and Sharingan bijuu restraint/control powers that was excellent for sealing further a bijuu. Although Naruto's Uzumaki chakra could well be a cause of why he's a ble to sustain a bijuu's chakra, while it's true that it's hard to contain one many other jinchuuriki mannaged too and 2 non-Uchiha non-Uzumaki/Senju even went as far as becoming perfect jinchuuriki, Killer Bee and Yagura that is. So I'm not really impressed that Naruto can sustain Kyuubi's chakra although it's an impressive feet went not considering other jinchuuriki. Gaara's more impressive since not only did he have to sustain the evil and powerful chakra of Shukaku, the beast prevented him from sleeping since the day he was born: Gaara is clinically susposed to be dead by now and since years ago. And Minato didn't really had much choices as to who he would put the Kyuubi's half into .
And Sandaime and Yondaime Kazekage's Satetsu and gold dust jutsus aren't the same as Gaara's powers, which comes from the Shukaku. Kage usually have a lot of chakra, they went through a lot and lived longer than a 12 year old Naruto who can create a 1000 clones of himself while just a thing would kill a strong jounin since it split the chakra so much between the different bodies. The Kyuubi's chakra is extremely powerful and it's effects remained on Narto's body. Without Kyuubi it would be more probable that he would still have a higher stamina/chakra capacity than everage genein when he was 12, like Sasuke and Chouji, but surely not to the point he would spam near as much clones as what he's been doing against the Ame genin in The Forest of Death in psrt 1: spamming Tajuu Kage Bunshin all night and being strong enough to then KO the 3 genin.
If you've been plugged with a nuclear power plant (bijuu, Kyuubi in this case) all your life and absorbing the energy (let's say you don't die from it), it's not because you remove it a day that the effects from from years of exposition are going to disappear like that. And that's what seem to have happened with Naruto against the Ame genin when he was spamming Tajuu Kage Bunshin all night and what happened with Gaara in him still being able to use Suna/Sabaku jutsu for the fact taht his metabolism has been permanently affected by Shukaku, the Sand bijuu, although the beasthad already been extracted.
That huge sand tsunami and night-long tajuu Kage bunshin spamming require chakra and stamina level those 2 weren't supposed to posses at those ages without the effects of their bijuu chakra remaining in their body while the connection from the source being cut off. Had they been adult and elite of the organisation/clans then it would be impressive but surely not improbable, as Gaara would be a Kage and Naruto and elite Uzumaki. But so young and displaying taht much chakra? I wouldn't even be surprised if even Madara, Izuna and Hashirama didn't have that much chakra at that age (but who knows , considering those 3 were abberation of nature hahaha).
On the other hand, if you were to say that we could see Naruto's Uzumaki life force effect after Orochimaru cut of the connection in that fact that Naruto healed strangely fast when using Hinata's healing cream (real regenerative display, not just impresive stamina), a little like Karin, I would clearly be with you on it:
With Kyuubi connection:
Without Kyuubi connection:
I would say Kyuubi betters Naruto's Uzumaki regenerative abilities, as he still had it when the connection was cout off by Orochimaru (healing from such wound is not as big an issue as the feat he displayed against the Amegakure genin, I'm not changing my view on the matter).
Last edited by GyoMasta; July 17, 2012 at 09:43 PM.
Secondly, I was unaware that the Senju and the Uchiha have some inherent right to being the only talented individuals. Outside of the Uzumaki, the Senju have never been shown to be jinchuuriki hosts, neither have the Uchiha. So I don't get why you seem to suggest that individuals outside of these clans being capable of becoming perfect hosts is somehow odd. And being able to serve as host to the Jinchuuriki is impressive by the mere fact that we know that most are wholly unable to do so.Quote:
Everyone accepts that the Kyuubi's chakra allows Naruto to accomplish the ridiculous. The thread puts forth support for the theory that even without the Kyuubi Naruto would have impressive stamina, not at his current level, but at a level superior to the vast majority of others. The majority of your post seems to attempt to refute this, while you then also suggest that you agree with the conclusion of the original poster, and then add some more to your opposition to the point. You seem to have gone off on tangents, which confuse the points you're attempting to make.Quote:
the already mentioned Chuunin exams ( where Kakashi blabbed without knowing Oro's chakra completely blocked the influx of Kyuubi's chakra, screwing Naruto's own as well ), when Kakashi said to him that, normally, he has 4 times his chakra reserves even without Kyuubi, when he mastered Sage Mode, a skill that requires enormous chakra reserves on his own, when he used, against Kyuubi, Tajuu Kage Bushin in combination with Giant Oodama Rasengans...
That Naruto is a chakra beast on his own right it was always clear, even before the whole Uzumaki mumbo jumbo.
Naruto always had a lot of chakra on his own. Basically we have that he has high natural stamina which is boosted by the kyubi. I think this page explains the situation pretty well.
Naruto on his own had at least twice as much chakra as kakashi and the kyubi only made the difference larger.
This fact, the continuous exposition to the bijuu's chakra permanently altering, strengthening the jinchuuriki's whole body and chakra was further explicitly confirmed with Gaara's who still got an immense chakra pool for his age and more, can now use a chakra that can manipulate the sand as he did before although it's purely an abability of Ichibi Shukaku, teh beast's chakra flowing into Gaara,s body for no many years. Further proof of a body's natural capacity being amplified is the fact that gaara, prior the the extraction of Shukakru, had never slept for 15 years, which should normally be impossible without dying. If to much chakra (energy) loss can kill you, then so should sleep deprivation, and Garra, as well as other Shukaku jinchuuriki, obviously broke the record, and willpower can't soly be taken as the reason for this. The body would fall on its own if it doesn't have enough time to regenerate its energy supply, which it bypassed thanks to metabolism enhancement provided by the bijuu.
Proven even more by Gerotora's explaination of the way Mianto designed the seal, to increase Naruo,s natural chakra and body:
By what Jiraiya, who masters Fuuin-Jutsu and was holding the seal key and its description at that time, was saying about teh same thing:
And by Kakashi's response to Naruto's to Ebisu's explaination of stamina and chakra use comparition in jutsu:
Naruto's metabolism had trouble with its own working because it was use to continuously being connected with the Fox's chakra and thus ongoing daily efect. then all that remain was the so far accumulated side effects of metabolic enhancement but not longer the equilibrium and the chakra supply from the beast.
Side effects from years of smoking don't disappear from your lungs and system the day or week you stop smoking ether, but you're going to feel the effects of no longer having access to tabaco and nicotin (nicoderm patches not included), so to speak.
Other proof of the daily effect of Kyuubi on Naruto is when Fukasaku tried to fuse with normal Naruto by connecting his chakra with his while standing on him: Kyuubi's willed chakra detected the intrusion and rejected the frog. Surely such a thing wouldn't happen if Kyuubi's connection was ff, but the reason happened was because of the interaction between its chakra in naruto's system and Fukasaku's. If such can happen then others effects must be on the body of the host.
I never said or implied that jinchuuriki state was more of and Uchiha/SenjUzumaki thing, at all.
Him being a descendant from the Younger Rikudou Son and thus having higher stamina/life force than others makes sense, I have no problem with that. But the thign he did in the Chuunin Exam (in the forest) was just too huge, that's what I'm talking about.