Yes, its just insane and wrong!
No, its not all that bad.
Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?
Not that I want Madara succeed in the end, but after watching "Road o Ninja" and witnessing the "Limited Tsukuyomi" I'm wondering... since, dead people were really alive - even if they will be forced to peace, they should be real persons, not mindless Zombies or something, right?
It would not be the right thing, but now i can understand why Obito believes in this plan...
Back then, Madara showed him his part of it, you could say the "software" to design everything, in the movie Obito showed us the "hardware" - he couldn't control, but created this world and...
I always asked myself what would be the point to lay a genjutsu over the world, if everyone becomes a "zombie" or dies sooner or later because his body is rotting away... I know its just a movie, not the manga, but since kishi was involved, i think it gives us a small impression of the Dreamworld...
What do you think...?
I do believe it's bad, it would be enjoyable for the people who've lost almost everything but I also believe that imposing your own dream or vision of something on other people is just being selfish.
Madara has lost everything including his friends, family, home, village and he doesn't want to activate the Mugen Tsukyomi to create peace but to live in what he believes is the best world. Obito's been brainwashed by it because he's lost Rin and his family is long dead besides no one in Konoha remembers about him. Kakashi was the only one going to his grave.
I do think that considering the events that happened in your life, you might get attracted to this perfect world but forcing people's mind to live in this kind of world just because you believe it's good isn't right but i understand his reasons and if i happened to be as miserable as him, this plan would be tempting.
Great thread subject, it's really interesting and makes us think!
Not having a say in whether you're apart of it is what's bad. Not the technique itself.
And also actually knowing it's all fake. That's the kicker. If you could elect to be a part of it, aswell as have your mind be none-the-wiser, then everything would be fine. Assuming you want a perfect world.
The concept of fake peace and lack of free will are the issues with Mugen Tsukuyomi. Not sure about free will though, but the fake peace would definitely exist. What happens if Mugen Tsukuyomi is broken? People would go back to fighting.
Well i don't know about the rest but i would MOST DEFENETLY not whant Madara in control of my world.
its kinda like THE MATRIX dont you think ?
It's a fate worthy to be compared to Death itself.
Madara is deluted & so is Tobi.
I have a somewhat messed up examples of what he is truly doing. He said his world would be a world where no pain exists right? (At least Tobi did).
What even happened to accidence? If Sakura is under the influence of such world & develop strong relationships with other individuals. What would ever happen if those Individuals that she developed strong relationships with died in that world? Through many methods, people die.
People can die from falling down from a cliff,
Children can die by their parents killing them by accident in during their sleep,
People can be killed through rough play
People can die of billions of other influences of logic.
What would happen if there was a misunderstanding & someone was blamed for the damaged relationship Sakura had with the individual that died? Wouldn't that cause her pain?
What every happened to environmental issues? What even happened to economic issues, financial issues & other issues that causes pain, suffering, saddening tears & other negative emotions?
Would Madara be able to understand the needs of everybody in his world? Of course not!! He wouldn't have invented such a world in the first place if he is able to understand the needs of all would he?
Madara is greedy. He desires power, power enough to crush the world (That is what this genjustsu would do. It has a planetary effect).
What he should have done is leave the worlds as it is & find REAL not FAKE ideas to better the world. He is just a man with the understanding of a man & with the limited perception of a man. He isn't God. He is playing with abilities that he couldn't possibly fathom. Abilities a man should never toy with. An ability to mind control an entire world. It's similar to an ant having dominion over us humans. It's a preposterous idea.
What he failed to realise or purposely blocks out, that many others realised is that this is a matter than concerns the whole world & not one man. Like Naruto said, you need majority votes on such a matter http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...13-page-5.html
Or like Tobirama said, The will of the people > the will of one selfish, self-centred, egoistic bastard http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...6-page-14.html
If you have something that can simulate every aspect of the real world down to the slightest of details then it really doesn't matter all that much if you make all those experiences in the "real" world or not.
Now, I may be biased since I have slightly nihilistic world views, but if some software like the Matrix gave me a 100% accurate experience about what its like to go surfing (feeling the waves and the sun on your skin, having to maintain balance etc.) then its pretty much irrelevant if I obtained it in the "real" world or not. The experience and the memories would be the exact same.
Whats reality anyway? What defines it? Is it what we experience with our senses? Because the latter would definitely also apply to Mugen Tsukuyomi.
If people didn't know they are in something like Mugen-Tsukuyomi, they'd just live their lives happily and none would complain. So I'd say the jutsu itself is neither good nor bad.
The problem is Madara though, since he plans to rule the world like a devine being and dictate people what they have to do. He also plans to remove death, which would not only mess up all experiences you can make inside Tsukuyomi (for example you can't drown while going surfing, thus its not 100% like the real deal anymore), but it would also inevitably lead to everyone being aware they are trapped inside an illusion, which wouldn't go too well with most people.
It would be like knowingly playing a video game in which you just can't die and additionally your actions are limited by the software. Wanna climb that hill over there? Nope, the designer didn't want you to so you'll encounter an invisible wall. Living in such a world would inevitably become extremely boring and in time people would turn into soulless shells of their former selves, losing all value for their existence.
If all those in the illusion are unable to grasp the passage of time, or lose their memories when they go to sleep, then it won't matter if they can't die.
And someone brought up the Matrix, yet the Matrix isn't a great example because it was ultimately flawed, their were errors in the Matrix that could be found out.
No, what Mugen Tsukuyomi is similar to is the Nexus from Star Trek.
Describing the Nexus to Captain Picard, Guinan described it as like "being inside joy." Inside the Nexus, all of a person's desires become reality, and one can reshape that reality to visit any time and any place one chooses.
I don't know if it's all that bad. Madara doesn't really gain from it. I don't remember him saying he would be the overlord of this new world and all would bow before him. People would live longer and healthier lives. They would focus on other more interesting things, once they had the time to do so. How the economics would work is anyone's guess, but I get the feeling that sharing would cover that aspect. The only real downside it the power source of such a taxing jutsu???
Thats not all too different from the real world though, because we have rules and laws as well which everyone has to obey. So you're not completely free to do whatever you want either (which is a necessity considering the sheer amount fuckturds inhabiting this world).
In Mugen Tsukuyomi however, Madara's will would always be absolute. Don't like the way he handles something? Well, too bad. There's no democracy, whatever Madara says is going to happen and there's no way to ever dethrone him. Something like that could maybe somewhat work if it was someone like Hashirama pulling the strings, but handing so much power to a mentally fucked up person like Madara can ultimately only end in calamity, no matter how good his intentions may be.
Last edited by LnDRash; April 09, 2013 at 11:00 AM.
You're assuming people will know Madara is pulling the strings or that there is actually something awry. And provided human traits such as big egos and overly selfish actions are kept at a minimum, things can only be good or better at the very least. Madara's methods are pretty messed up but his intentions don't appear malicious. He's not wiping sections of society he deems unworthy and putting uchiha on a pedestal. Besides, it's not like Hashirama's dream worked out so great either.
lol, its not good but not bad either, some people want this, some want to be told what to do, and if you dont believe me look at the concept of leaders and followers, I see people following trends of others because they want to fit in.
also fun fact remember back when itachi used shisui mangekyo sharigan, he made mention of when naruto would have faced sasuke, it would have activated and put sasuke in a genjutsu to protect konoho instead of destroy it, notice how he was willing to sacrifice sasukes free will and naruto didnt say anything, but the whole war has been about stopping everyone elses free will from being taken away
It's bad in the same way that the Matrix is bad.
Living in a simulation, with no control over your own destiny, nothing more than a puppet on a string controlled by an unseen individual, is not living at all.