Also that example you made is fine and all, but it has a single, fundamental flaw:
when Yondaime teleported to Raikage, he teleported in mid-air, since the kunai was in mid-air, meaning it wasn't on Raikage's body or anything, meaning that, if Raikage was marked, Yondaime would've just do what he did to Tobi.
If he teleports in the same way to and fro, then why oh why he always have a different position when he uses Hiraishin? How, if it isn't instantaneous, can he pass from being squatted without doing a thing to swinging his kunai?
Also lol at Sasuke and Deidara example, so apparently Sasuke is fast why?
Because Deidara said so, despite dodging every attack?
And yet Yondaime isn't faster despite doing a faster shunshin for, like, thrice the distance and having the fastest guy in the world say that he was slower than him.
You missed the lesson, again, when the Sharingan user needs to have at least comparable speed to keep up.Quote:
Sasuke could see Rock Lee's movements, yet he couldn't dodge because he was a turtle compared to him.
He could see Gaara's movements and dodge, because, despite being slower, he had comparable speed.
How is making something up when I showed Sasuke himself saying this?Quote:
He said "he moves in a straight line, so his attacks are easy to read", Raikage attacked too in a straight line, so what does it tell us?
Also yes, is impressive to lower your head 20 cm, a normal human would never dodge a punch using such refined tactics
I'll put this in an easy way so you can understand:Quote:
manga fact, in attack speed A with V1 > Sasuke, A with V2 >>>> Sasuke, Yondaime > A with V2.
Manga facts, Sasuke couldn't follow Raikage with V2 while Yondaime, as showed, could follow even a blitz and react accordingly.
How in the world Yondaime wouldn't dodge something Itachi dodged without a problem, despite being blind, sick and everything?
So, basing on your reasonement, 12 years old Naruto's Rasengan has the same strenght of his 16 years old selfQuote:
Good catch, yet it isn't true the whole DNA thing, a clone can use Gekkei Kenkais of the original even without being a Mokuton, see Kakashi and his Kage Bushins or Itachi and his Crow BushinsQuote:
So now Orochimaru is weak to cutting attacks but is the strongest against blunt damage.Quote:
You are really creating a whole new level of double standards
Oh good lord
An elbow is not a simple, linear attack?Quote:
You clearly ignored the order to retreat, right?
Of course you have.
And who says that Yondaime needs to attack Sasuke? He can mark him, wait for him to use Kirin, teleport behind him to dodge the attack and he obtained the maximum result with the minimal effort.
If Tobi couldn't see nor sense an Hiraishin tag being placed upon him, neither will Sasuke
Of course if Tobi can do it everyone can, after all Tobi's intangibility is such a weak, non haxed jutsu, right?
Of course, stay away from the tags.Quote:
And then maybe stay away from Yondaime. And then stay away from combat in general. After which Yondaime would double-team Orochimaru and Kabuto and then we would have a 3 vs 1.
But he is Sasuke, he will blast Kakashi away with Gokyakuu, he will pierce Jiraiya with Chidori Senbon and will destroy Yondaime with Shishi Rendan
So you basically confirmed that you believe Hebi Sasuke to be superior to Yondaime.Quote:
Oh well, as you well said your opinion
Same Sasuke being overwhelmed by every opponent in the speed department sans Danzou and Deidara, which were on his level.Quote:
A long ranged fighter and a 80 years old.
Manga facts right there
I completely forgot about that, great catch.
It could've been, but we see next page that he effortlessy shunshins back
I used that example to show you how he needs to swing as it is broken down (to show Bee intercepting the move.Quote:
Asuming its like vs Tobi and Minato pops with his Kunai NEXT TO HIS KIN (Tobi's) from that point he still needs to trust his hands forword to implant the kunai in Tobi's flesh.
Seriously are you telling me Minato is going to pop with his kunai INSIDE Tobi's flesh? Like teleport 1 object inside another? He never displayed the ability to do so.
So compared to the examble with Bee Minato is just going to have a smaller space where he needs to trust the kunai to effect his target, but the trust is still there.
You where the one who used that example to show me something and i posted in response to that. Deidara never acutaly dodge an attack that was meant for him. First time Sasuke allowed it and second when he was up in the tree deidara used a bomb to get away. Its not like ce actualy DODGED Sasuke.Quote:
Now Sasuke never needed to display that range of shunshin... Not to say he can do it but as i said before he does not need the same speed to keep up with Minato in a fight as he has his sharingan to compensate for the speed gap.
Now Minato is faster then Raikage (for God knows how many time) because he can teleport. A shunshin Minato can't even compare to full speed Raikage.
Sasuke has more then enough base speed to keep up with Minato lol. He can do that with Bee and casual speed Raikage. Minato is defenetly not above casual speed Raikage...Quote:
Again read what you post lol. He said that because of that tactic he can read his attacks easy. It has nothing to do with the fact that he can keep up with Bee ONLY BECAUSE OF THAT. He said that is easy to track because of that.Quote:
And stop tring to nerf Sasuke feat in dodging Raikage and landing a blow, considering the huge speed they where traveling that is a insane feat. I exampled to you why even coming from Minato's own words in my last post.
Also that was not a linear attack exacly, it was a CLOSE RANGE attack with the elbow.
The way they charge:
Then Raikage tries to swipe Sasuke away with his hand:
its not a frontal linear charge like Bee does, its running in and tries to hit him with your hand.
Now yes its impresive as that proves Sasuke is more then able to keep up, avoid and land hits on Raikage that is easy on or above Minato (no st). Sasuke is not as fast but his sharingan is more then able to provide for the speed diference.
And i will use the manga.Quote:
Because Sasuke dodged and hit Raikage in v1. Sasuke>Raika in v1 (sharingan included of course). A with v2>>>> Sasuke yes. Yondaime>a in v2 ONLY because he can teleport instantly out of the way. That is NOT going to help Minato here to get a hit on Sasuke aside from some freak accident. Now its like this NO St Minato <<<<< Raikage in lvl 2 exacly as Sasuke is.
Sasuke could follow the attack just as good, he put Amaterasu on his Susano... You do understand that Minato noticed Raikage after some 10 to 15 meters dash lol?
Now Minato for instance does not have the tools Itachi has. Also Itachi himself got hit by that big shuriken look thing (yes he was sick and half blind but you used him). Also a lot of that fight was insane of genjutsu more then real life. Now don't get me wrong i am not stating Minato is going to get hit for sure... But the posibility exists and Minato needs to RUN IN to do damage... He is going to expose himself to a posible attack and the best he could do is teleport away if its get ugly.
Yes probably, same for Raikiri. There is no reason to belive they could not do the jutsu at that age at full power. Do you got anything that would put it at more power now then before? NQuote:
Then you can be my gues and tell me why did you change the point with the above? You could not find anything of what you stated and then you tried to avoid the subject?
How does the above have anything to do with Naruto creating a rasengan just as powerfull as his clone and the other way around? Even asuming kid Naruto could not do a rasengan as powerfull as now and it would not apply here in any way as Naruto could have improved it over the years.
Again i am open to a hypothesis if you can find anything in the manga to support you claims.
Well those things are complete replicas of the originals but they just go poof when they are hit (or grow's fly away)... Now don't ask me why they go poof, its magic. The diference is that wood clones are not going poof and they are basicaly the original growing himself into a double.Quote:
Am i? The manga showed Oro taking punches to the face that can do more damage then Oodama rasengan and then the manga showed Oro getting sliced in more then 1 ocasion with no real problem. Even Itachi with a kunai cutting his hand off.Quote:
Not my fault the manga showed it that way.
The only times they got into close combat... Sasuke clearly showed to dodge him and hit him.Quote:
You don't see me arguing how Minato can't hit Tobi because he did it only once or that he can't keep up with Tobi as he got tagged 2 times.
Its more like a hand slap. And no its not exacly linear. Well not more then running close to a guy and tring to punch him in the face. What Sasuke refered to Bee's linear attacks where those charged from left to right like a bull, even jumping in the air.Quote:
You do understand even Bee was Oo as Sasuke dodged something that only Raikage could?
What does this have to do with anything? Elaborate.Quote:
Seriously tagging him would be an feat in itself... Now if this is a 1vs1 i personaly don't belive Sasuke can get the Kirin off. So its irrelevant anyway. I used the Kirin only when you said Minato vs the 3 of them at the same time.Quote:
Tobi did not see it as he was blated by the bloody Rasengan at close the exact same time and he had his bloody face down ... He could not see the hand placed on him. Some extremly weird turn of events would be needed to replicate this.
It is very hax, i just gave you an exaple of not needing comparable speed to do it. Some jutsus can get around that.Quote:
Even Raikage could keep track of all the tags on the battlefield. And Sasuke keeping his range from the tags ... Well its logical to do so. Minato would need to move away to attack or its a draw. If Minato would move to another dude he would move off to assist to and still keep range from the tags.Quote:
So its a draw or Oro and Sasuke vs JMan and Minato and we get to the exact problem but here Oro can send huge snakes to cover the tags or just go himself in as he can tank the attacks... He can summon a Tsunamy of snakes with kusenagi and so on.
And again you have to exagerate and make fun of diferent things...
Superior... Not sure but he can defenetly win this same as Minato. Its defently not a stomp as you keep tring to demonstrate... And defenetly Minato can'tt solo the 3 of them.Quote:
I do give him good ods at taking Minato down expecialy considering Sasuke knows what ST does, has the ability to get out of at least 2 deaths and removed tags from his body (by jumping out of his body). Then he has aoe close range attacks that would be extremly hard to dodge even for Yondaime (chidori curent). Sasuke can also summon snakes to provide cover or defened himself. Then he can increase his durability by a lot with CS. His wing could take a huge explosion.
Sasuke DEFENETLY has ways of winning this.
Who exacly? Let's see.Quote:
Bee. He could keep up, yes Bee was charing bla bla bla but he could. Bee only got him when he suprised him with his raiton blades and with his weird sword skills.
Bee was charging at full speed that only Raikage could dodge but he was able to keep up just fine.
Raikage, only when his max speed was used did it happen but he was able to counter with his Susano+Amaterasu. Minato himself needed a jutsu to get around this speed. This is the same level of feat for Minato and Sasuke.
I am sorry but he showed more then you give him credit for.
Last edited by xXan; July 25, 2012 at 05:37 AM.
smoke, or smoke and lines.
Same thing with Hiraishin, he usually make it smoke-less, but one or two times it showed Hiraishin using smoke, its mostly a drawing expedient.
As for Yondaime's speed, of course I don't think he is as fast or faster than Raikage without Hiraishin, but I still think he's way faster than Sasuke
Last edited by chilibun; July 25, 2012 at 05:55 AM.
With Bee he appeared with a kunai over his face, if he wanted to he could've done the same thing he did to Tobi.
He didn't because they had to retreat, meaning he couldn't risk an all-out war against A and Kumo, he only had to threaten A so he could retreat safely, remember that A didn't want Yondaime to retreat?
Sasuke can still be hit despite his Sharingan by faster opponents.Quote:
grabbed, grabbed, hit, hit, hit, hit, grabbed, hit.
See? Sasuke isn't invincible in taijutsu, far from it
Yet everyone landed more than an hit on him, while Raikage is too fast for almost anyone to follow.Quote:
Does it mean that maybe, just maybe, Sasuke isn't as fast as you believe he is?
So if Yondaime doesn't attack they will simply stand there?Quote:
Read what you wrote, think about it, think carefully about what you wrote, then post again.Quote:
Saying that Naruto at 12 had the same power he had at 16 is negating all the improvements he made all over the years, it is again logic that a 12 years old is way inferior to an 16 years old expecially if he trains, or what, a punch of your 12 year old self will be as strong as a punch of your 16 years old self?
Are you aware that the body grows and is strenghten through both growth and training, right?
Then why Sasuke's Gokyakuu trumphed Itachi's if the jutsu is the same?
They expended the same chakra, so the effects must be the same
Yeah, infact Tobi won, not Yondaime, Tobi sucked Yondaime in his dimension when he "tagged" him.Quote:
Instant teleportation can go around that, something Sasuke hasn't and can't followQuote:
I guess I have a different meaning of "keeping up".Quote:
Keeping up, for me, is avoiding being hit by the opponent, taking some scratches and everything, but ultimately being a match against him.
Sasuke wasn't a match for Bee in speed, since he needed a phoenix down twice.
Sasuke wasn't a match for Raikage since he couldn't follow him, and used Susano'o, the antithesis of speed.
Sasuke was a match for Deidara, a long ranged fighter.
Sasuke was a match for Danzou, a 80 years old guy way past his prime, and still needed a phoenix down.
Sasuke was a match for a blind, sick, holding back Itachi, that still would've won if he wanted to.
So its not me not giving him credit, its you overestimating him wayyyyyyyyyyy too much.
Yondaime is shown time and time again to be in a complete different class from Hebi Sasuke, on the levels of Itachi and just below Nagato.
Yes but in nothing you said here addresses the fact that Minato needs to trust or swing his arm to cut after his ST that is unless you belive Minato can teleport his Kunai or Rasengan direcly in the target and that he never displayed as able to do.Quote:
Let's not forget that what you used there is:Quote:
1-Itachi keeping up with RM Naruto and Bee at the same bloody time.
Second link has Sasuke himself grabing Itachi as he was grabed so its something of a draw.
Then you show Bee who we know how fast he is and that is a sword fight where be had a big advantage as he could use 8 of them (because of his skill true but its about speed here) and he is VERY fast. Then you show me Bee striking him down when he left himself oppened as he had no bloody idea Bee can block with Raiton (bad tactics and what not but again its not exacly because he could not keep up, he could to some level but obviously yes Bee was better).
Then you show me Bee hitting him when he had his back TURNED TO HIM belive Bee is out cold. This mean Sasuke is stupid, has bad tactics or anything you whant but not a fail in Sasuke's speed or ractions times. Don't ignore WHY that happened... He showed to be able to dodge things like that, he got hit there because his stupidity and not because of his inability to dodge those.
Then grabbed by Danzou... Well he did not give a shit as he was aiming to cut his hand off and he did.
Then again him going OK with a double hit on himself and Danzou. He knew that would happen but he knew he would not die as the blade would not go in ANY vital area and that Karin was there.
But you missed the point. I never said he is invincible in melee combat lol. I said he can keep up in one with Minato. Big diference. I never said he will be immune in a melee fight with Minato.
As i said above. He is fast enough.Quote:
Probably as Sasuke is not stupid enough to go into those seals or at least try to get him from range with something. Think about it Sasuke would be the one having no problems to w8... Minato on the other hand is going to do his best to finish this fast... Sasuke does not give a SHIT about his team, never has. Minato on the other hand... His master and his "padawan" are there.
Don't compare body function to jutsu potency. Or at least Rasengan. Let me put it this way. Do you have ANY evidence from the manga that Naruto's curent Rasengan is > his old 1?Quote:
Seriously Naruto improbed in other areas and developed other bigger version of Rasengan but the standard one should be the same. Take after the time skip he developed Oodama rasengan. But his old version of Rasengan was showed just as powerfull as his curent one.
Again don't acuse me of diferent things, try supporting your point with manga evidence of what you belive. Also and again don't compare chakra levels, body capabilities, skill, speed, reaction times and other things like that to RASENGAN. You said Rasengan and i addresed that. Seriously i noticed NO change in power from part 1? Did you? Where?
I never said diferent people can't use a jutsu more powerfull then others. Take ST from Minato, he can do it himself and on the other hand we have 3 others doing it. Naruto aparently perfected Rasengan from part 1. Again you belive he has more power in it since part 1 show me where and why.Quote:
But to address this that was not just shoot and forget. It was chaneled as they kept shooting it, Sasuke just had more chakra as Itachi was close to death and pain like hell.
Now stop changing the subject. You said Rasengan from part 1 to part 2 FOR NARUTO then you whent with body abiltiies and other crep then comparing the jutsu from 2 diferent people. Make up your mind already what you whant to compare.
But the discussion was about a clone and the original using a jutsu. How does the above applies to that in any way? Seriously.
And i said anything about winning or losing where? I said about the ability to tag Minato...Quote:
As long as he keeps away from seals he does not need to.Quote:
Keeping up in speed means you can do that, keep up with your opponent in speed(sharingan compensation and what not included).Quote:
Why do you ignore why it happened? First time as he left himself oppen like a moron and second time because he turned his back to him like a moron. In none of this casses does it mean he can't keep up with Bee... Only that he is a moron. Your evidence is flawed.Quote:
And Minato used ST so Minato can't keep up with Raikage to.. Minato used a jutsu and so did Sasuke... But for Minato it does not matter as he is Minato.Quote:
Not that it matters as i stated some 20 times now casual speed but let's ignore that.
80 years old man with INSANE Speed able to move back from a Susano poping in his damn blasted face when we know you can summon that faster then a lighting bolt hits the ground and who had Senju DNA in his ass.Quote:
Because Itachi is Itachi and he would shit all over Minato just as well.Quote:
Neah.. its just you ignoring how said "hits" where achived.
Last edited by xXan; July 25, 2012 at 07:43 AM.
what I can see at impressive, in both hype and feats, you can see as average.
As for charging attacks, A actually moves around when using shunshin, since against both Madara and Sasuke he went for the blind spot when dealing a decisive attack.
And in both cases A was way faster than his opponents, Sasuke completely lost him and Madara commented on his superior speed.
So he will not dodge everything.Quote:
So he will be tagged.
So he will lose.
And yet you say that Yondaime can't touch Sasuke.
Good strategy, Yondaime ends Kabuto and Oro with his team's help then they all gang up on Sasuke.Quote:
I love how usually wanking Sasuke results in Uchiha fans making him look like a retard when he is really the opposite, and Kishi doesn't make him as overpowered as many seems to think.
And how they can, if body doesn't matter, only chakra usage?Quote:
The same jutsu consumes the same chakra, then why Sasuke's was superior? Since the body doesn't affect the jutsu, pain and sickness shouldn't be relevant, right?
How he "tagged" Yondaime if tagging him would mean Tobi sucking him into his eye?Quote:
So Sasuke is a moron.Quote:
But he is smarter than Yondaime.
Danzou has insane speed?Quote:
You are grasping at straws here
You lack hatredQuote:
Vs Tobi he had his back to us but you have no evidence in the world to prove Minato can teleport with his Kunai inside a dude.
Vs the fodder his kunai was obviously on the outisde and on the guy's neck.. if you noticed him with the Kunai teleported inside that dude's flesh you are defenetly reading some other manga then me.
So you get to irrelevant posts not addresing anything just posting nonsense.Quote:
You provided AGAIN no arguments and just acused me of doing whatever.
If Minato moves to assist some other man ignoring Sasuke then what would stop Sasuke to move after him or give his assistence to some other guy? Seriously do you even read or think about the things you post? What is keeping Sasuke there looking at the fight..Quote:
Getting bored with you now. Going to put it simple. Show me evidence of:Quote:
1-Clones doing jutsus worse then the original.
2-Rasengan from part 2 doing more damage then Rasengan in part 1.
I love the fact that now you whant to the sikness crep. Again provide evidence of the 2 above things.
Trolling some more aparently as if you are telling me you don't know that Minato teleported before Tobi could warp him or teleported out of his chains i don't belive it.Quote:
Derailing the conversation again:Quote:
a-That was about speed feats and reactions times.
b-Nobody states Sasuke is smarter then Minato.
Straw man arguments again ignoring what we are discussion and making up crep.
He has feats. Dodging Susano (even if he got hit a little). Susano pops in your face faster then a lighting bolt hits the ground. This is not me grasping at straws, are events that happened in the manga.Quote:
And more nosense. Aparently when you run out of arguments you start posting nonsense. Well gratz.Quote:
Last edited by xXan; July 25, 2012 at 08:48 AM.
But I don't see anyone being able to take out Orochimaru. I doubt he'll let people continuously hit his body over and over and make him waste chakra. Even without his arms, he was able to be on par with Jiraiya, although Jiraiya did have messed up chakra control. And even against Naruto, Orochimaru was fightin with a body that was failing on him.
And no, no comparing how Jiraiya did against Four-Tailed Kyuubi to how Orochimaru did. That's stupid, unless Jiraiya was also fighting the Kyuubi Naruto. FOr all we know, he got blindsided and since Naruto is his pupil and godson, Jiraiya wasn't trying to hurt Naruto.