While i agree that team immortals are not that easy to kill, but they're far from dangerous. Sasori utilizes poisons, but his human flesh in his heart is his weakness, kakuzu has 5 hearts so you must kill him 5 times, hidan use a ritual to kill his enemy and above all, his really an immortal and tobi, his the one in team immortals that is dangerous to team rasengan. But the fact that tobi was clearly defeated by minato then i can say that minato is the true meaning of being dangerous.
Kakashi can see right though sasori's heart, so they just need to stab him or hit him with a rasengan. Even if sasori can manage to pull his 100 puppets, but jiraiya can use his hair needles or his hair mane jutsu to destroy all the puppets. Then jiraiya will going to use his swamp of the underworld to have the advantage to team immortals. There's no one in team immortals knows how to fly so i'm pretty sure hidan/kakazu/sasori will going to fall from that swamp. While tobi can phase through from that swamp, but i doubt he can attack to any of team rasengan. Because he needs to become solid to attack someone and there's the swamp that he needs to avoid.
In fact, for me, jiraiya can fight hidan and kakuzu head on. And i doubt jiraiya's swamp of the underworld will be cancel by kakuzu's raiton. Well, we know that earth is weak against lightning, but jiraiya's swamp isn't an ordinary earth technique, and the fact that it was a wide range earth jutsu then kakuzu should need a powerful lightning jutsu like sasuke's kirin to cancel that swamp.
So for me, team rasengan.
1-What if it is because of the rinnegan?
2-What if the GM statue did it?
3-What if its some other factor that we are unawere of?
To the point Tobi demonstrates how he has done that so we KNOW if it can be reproduced here he can't do it here.
Hell it could be anything... We have no idea what Tobi did.
It proves nothing. It could be for the simple reason Tobi can activate his intangibility and COMPLETLY negate it.Quote:
1) Unlikely, because the rinny has never shown any s/t jutsu. Kamui was used twice against Pein and he didn't do anything to stop it. Kamui is also s/t jutsu very similar to Tobi's very own, so the counter likely came from his own s/t abilities.
2) Gedo has been nothing more than a mindless statue that's only good for a hulk smash so far, so I doubt it actually did anything. Plus its too busy raging and bleeding from the eyes.
3) What other factors? The weather? The only thing different about this Tobi is that he has the rinny, and it's unlikely that has anything to do with it. Tobi also made his comment regarding Kamui's ineffectiveness on him before acquiring it. Tobi simply turning intangible wouldn't have stopped Kamui from popping off Sasuke or Zetsu's head. I'm pretty sure Tobi is saying he can completely render it ineffective. But w/e.
I understand there is still a lot of uncertainties, so it's really a matter of interpretations at this point. I'm just saying that I'm convinced that he can and did negate the Kamui against Gedo. But I'm not gonna dwell to hard on this matter. I can accept it either way.
Another thing about Kamui is that it never lives up to its "supposed" ability. There is quite a bit of uncertainly regarding this jutsu as well, considering it has never warped a living target as fast as it did inanimate ones. The only time it even hit a living target was against Deidara who was basically just standing there, and even that took a while. At this point, I actually think Kamui requires more time to partially rip objects vs. completely warping objects, as well as more time and chakra for more massive objects. It's really the only way I can explain how ineffective this jutsu is used in the manga without resorting to the PIS explanation every time. Kakashi is also not going to have a lot of opportunities to sit back and snipe anything considering Kakuzu can split into 5 bodies and bombard them with nukes and Sasori has hundreds of puppets and aoe attacks. Team Immortal has more explosive jutsus and is going to be dictating the flow of the battle.
1-The rinnegan does not need to control ST to cancel that. We know that the rinnegan can cancel any jutsu. Problem is the distance to the wormhole from Tobi but we don't know if he can or can't extend his range or if he can chanel his rinnegan somehow trough the GM statue (they do have some link).
2-The GM does not need to be a genius to have some pasive ability to make it abosrb a jutsu or even Tobi using his link ordering it to do it. Even the ET can be programed like that so why can't the statue be programed?
3-I can make up a LOT of other factors:
a-the GM is immune to it (god knows why).
b-the materials that the GM is build out of can destibilize a wormhole (to SF? Perhaps).
c-Kakashi was effected by whatever x crep(that Tobi could use only under those circumstances, like rinnegan or GM statue chakra) and his ability to control the jutsu failed.
d-Tobi has the ability to interfear with a sharingan and do whatever to it (but he needs the rinnegan power).
e-Gogonami (invented by me) that can do whatever crep but you need bla bla bla to use it. If Itachi can pull crep out of his arse why can't Tobi?
f-What if Tobi has a sharingan implanted in his but or other parts of his body and he just activated Izanagi and somehow warped reality to stop it? Tobi did state Izanagi can turn your advantages and bla bla bla and make them real:
We don't know what the limits on that jutsu are. This could be used in this fight to BUT that would be a HUGE blow to Madara with 2 eyes and that needs to be taken into account IF its that.
g- the hight chakra concentration and what not stopped the jutsu.
Also his ability to warp a living target is irrelevant. The jutsu opens a rift, a wormhole type of gate. What matter it pulls in its irrelevant. Also the GM apears to be made out of stone. As long as the size are the same the chakra and speed of the warp should be the same. Now of course it would be way more easy to rip an object made out of flesh in half then let's say a Susano arrow. But if he warps half of you away and then closses the rift it does not matter what is inside, it would be instantly ripped in half.
Of course Tobi's warping eye can be the one with the ability to seal warpgates but then again why can't he also oppen them? Does not make much sense to me. Anything could be here but to the point we know how we can't use it here. Considering i myself can maky any hypothesis about Tobi's ability here means its to much of a gues... We need evidence on how said feat was achived and IF it can be replicated here.
Again to the point you have confirmation from the manga you can't use it. Does not matter how strongly it is implied 1 way or the other.
Last edited by xXan; July 30, 2012 at 06:27 AM.
I'm glad you are aware you are "making up" a lot of factors... Whether Tobi negated Kamui or not is all that matters as far as I'm concerned. I don't need to know the specifics of the jutsu used, just as long as he did it and he did from what I can tell. All that matters is the end result. It's like seeing Tobi phase through stuff before we found out its a s/t technique. Are you going to tell me he couldn't phase through things just because we didn't find out how he was doing it even though he could clearly do so? While this case isn't nearly as certain, you get my point.
My last paragraph is about Kamui in general and not about it being used on Gedo. It hasn't shown its capable of what you (and even me for that matter) think it is and should be capable of, like quickly ripping somebody's head off. It's just either been a major fail or used for the dumbest stuff. I can't imagine it 1HKO anybody at this point. It just haven't shown the ability to warp/rip people or decent sized objects as fast as it did to the relatively small objects like kunais. You could make a case for the Susanoo arrow, but for all we know Kamui may have just opened a small rift and the arrow just flew into it. We don't exactly know the specifics and limits of Kamui either. And if it does require more time or chakra to rip apart an object or more massive ones, then Kakashi is not going to be able to simply 1HKO anybody. Even Deidara was aware that he was caught in some doujutsu and managed to only lose an arm, granted Kakashi couldn't quite control it at that time.
Last edited by chilibun; July 30, 2012 at 07:19 AM.
let me put it simple. Before you can use it here you need to provide evidence that Tobi can replicat said feat here. No asumtions based on what you belvie Tobi did there.
Just because Kakashi did not have the oportunity curently to rip anybody's head off or whatever it does not mean he can't do it. Just because Kirin did not kill anybody does not mean it can't do it. Kakashi showed to be able to warp something the size of that Susnao arrow faster then he can move his body 20 cm's to the left to dodge it. That is enough right there... Take the size, speed and what not of the arrow and apply it to a human.
It's either you believe Tobi did negate Kamui or he didn't. We may never see it again, especially if he did because Kakashi is not going to use Kamui on him. It's like me asking you show me that Ee can dodge Amaterasu again or that RS Naruto can match Ee's speed again. If he did it once, then I don't see why he can't do it again. Now if you don't think Tobi negated Kamui at all, that's a different issue altogether.
The difference is we know exactly what Kirin is. We don't exactly know the specifics and limits of Kamui. He shows he can instantaneously warp projectiles but fails to use it effectively on anybody. How many times can you call PIS. If Kakashi is that damn dumb, then he is going to be too dumb to 1HKO anybody here as well.
No, its not like that. Raikage showed to be able to dodge Amaterasu and we KNOW how he did it. If Tobi was showed to use his eye (sharingan) to stop the Kamui then we would know what is happening but like this? No. Also you can be damn sure we are getting an explanation as to how he did that.
You example with Raikae would be valid IF:
We got someone telling us that Raikage was able to get around Amaterasu but nobody ever showed us or told us if he did it with his speed, used his Raiton shield to block it or used god knows what other jutsu to get around that.
Also its obvious Tobi stopped Kamui somehow, that is not the question. The question is can that said feat be replicated here? We don't know how he did it so we don't know if he can do it here or was something that can only be done under those conditions that where presented in the manga.
We also have enough evidence to state that he can warp a dude that has the same size and durability of that arrow and even 1 dude that is running at that speed (someone WAY faster then Kakashi as he could not move 20 cm to dodge it). You don't need to know the exact specifics or the limits of that jutsu when you have this. Who cares if he can swalow the planet when we just need it to do that to something the size of that arrow.
Also the only times when he used it on a human is back on Deidara but he was still learning it. He even needed something of a long activation back then.
Now let's not forget he was rdy to shoot it on Tobi right off the bat. It all depends on the enemy he is facing, what he knows about them and so on. He is only using it when he has no other choice.
Um, Kakuzu's hearts can fly, Sasori's puppets can fly, and Tobi can float wherever he wants. Nor would using the Swamp of the Underworld be a smart move. Aside from Kakuzu being capable of countering it simply by matching the amount of chakra, both Kakuzu and Sasori would actually benefit from it, as it would mean that none of Team Rasengan would be able to fight them close range.
Jiraiya can't fight either head on. Not only can both tank whatever he throws at them, but they would only need a single strike to win; Hidan merely getting some of his blood and Kakuzu ripping out his heart.
Does Jiraiya start out in Sage Mode? If not, then I don't see him getting into Sage Mode in this fight.
Oh yeah, and missing an arm too, I guess.
After all he had Izanagi in store, cheating death one would totally kill Yondaime, imagine the shock of Tobi surviving a Rasengan at the cost of one eye, he would've died by heart attack.
Izanagi doesn't guarantee hte enemy death. I doubt he'd have been able to kill Minato with just Izanagi. I doubt with the exception of Jiraiya, he'll be able to kill with Izanagi in this fight as well.
Of course, I may be giving Minato too much credit. But, his Hiraishin makes it hard as hell to kill him (obviously his reflexes play a great part here as well). If anyone but Tobi tries a sneak attack on Minato... they won't be happy with a hole in their head.