Ishida and Ichigo certainly has more potential.
Anyway if Kyoraku really meant Histugaya could(not even in definite manner) surpass him in 100 freaking years then there's no way Ichigo and Ishida won't be superior. Gin and Aizen being a greater prodigy than Hisugaya could be questioned(though i'm SERIOUSLY doubting the Aizen part lol)
Last edited by Kay3795; July 20, 2012 at 10:58 AM.
I am just stating that he has more potential that Toshiro.
The reason I put Ichigo and Ishida in the same sentence is because we are only discussing Toshiro, Ichigo, Kenpachi, Ishida, Gin and Aizen. We are discussing their potentials.
Aizen is maxed out
Gin has great potential
Toshiro has great potential
Ichigo is god tier in this department
Kenpachi has great potential(he hasn't even learned bankai).
Ishida is still just a teenager. He has a lot to learn but I believe as a quincy and a friend of the main character he is going to show something monstrous. He happens to be absent in this specific arc. Don't you find that strange?
I don't agree.
Ishida has never been stated as having high potential or even as a genius in the same regard as someone like Hitsu. Ishida currently is utter trash. Have you forgotten his horrible display during the following arc?
And you may have been discussing potential, but the initial discussion was whether certain individuals should be classified as prodigies or not. This is somewhat related to potential, but differs in many significant ways.
As for Ishida, he may show something spectacular. After that I'd be more than willing to reanalyse and reconsider, until then I intend to use the displays of the past arcs to judge him and his abilities. At the moment, anything else is just speculation and wishful thinking.
Toushiro is definitely younger then Byakuya and Gin (or at least shorter) and is already a captain, he's confirmed to have graduated the Academy faster then Gin and it took Gin at least an additional 50+ years to become Captain, it took Toushiro a great deal less. Putting Gin ahead of Toushiro feels ill-founded to me. And anyway, I have to say that IS dislike of the character that is generally behind the arguments against it.Quote:
This is a story. Toushiro's potential is an established plot point from the getgo that has been reiterated several times. It'll probably go somewhere at some point. We are not gonna timeskip to 2100 at any point in this story. Ergo, he'll most likely outdo Kyoraku's expectations. All this seems obvious to me. Insisting otherwise seems pointless.
Last edited by Pat; August 02, 2012 at 03:29 AM.
and all i said Gin who is PERHAPS even more prodigious....not saying he is 110%, it doesnt seem that ill founded to me in any way to put Gin ahead of Toshiro in that category, or at least for now, i believe it was stated that Hitsu has been Captain for roughly 40-50 years so if you consider that than he should have already been at Senior Captain level of power based on what you seem expect from him
so lets look at it this way
in the 110 years that we do know about, Gin went from graduating from the academy in 1 year, being named to the 5th seat, yet being strong enough to kill a 3rd seat, and then growing to have Senior Captain Level (or near it) power
now we look at Toshiro, he graduated from the academy very fast as well, the only thing thats stated as comparison of both 'prodigies' is this :"He is the most gifted prodigy the Soul Society has had since Gin Ichimaru,"...nothing about being more gifted, anyways after that who knows...but eventually became the youngest captain in SS history, and yet during the 40-50 year time he was unable to reach said senior level type of power, but even more so we can look at how Toshiro fared against Aizen, vs How Gin fared vs Aizen.....prodigy isnt only about power....so in that case considering how he went in without thinking, it would seem Gin is ahead of him on that end.....blah blah blah....its really kind of pointless anyways its one genius of one centure vs one from another century
anyways so suddenly despite the fact that his growth seems to have stalled for the last few decades until recently he's supposed to suddenly now in 2 years be able to do what? i mean even if he surpasses what Shunsui predicted and its 50 years its still 50 years and not 2 lol he definetly has an advantage with his incredibly powerful Zanpakuto if anything but its still leaves it all unrealistic to assume he'll suddenly save the day in this war with a massive power boost.....kubo stated he has completed his Bankai....unfortunately these Bankais arent a factor right now and even when they once again become usable, completing and mastering are 2 different things
so no i dont think we'll see THAT incredible potential in this Bleach timeframe...despite the fact that i do agree he'll get there and fast.....2 years is beyond pushing it, when one considers the last we saw from him, in this case the only thing the word prodigy does for you is make it more believable when you suddenly seem to improve fight by fight...which he has, but the leap you're talking about is a bit much for 2 years
---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------
and so that is NOT dislike of the character its simply looking at reasoning and ppl who compare with Toshiro
---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------
Byakuya the other prodigy just got taken down.....how then can anyone expect Hitsu to fair much better, that WOULD be a massive (and unlikely) leap imo
anyways iessentially i go back to my reason for even bringing up prodigies.....it was simply to backup the fact i believe its unrealistic to expect these crazy power boosts from shinigamis not named Ichigo....unless you're telling me Shunsui was actually off by 98 years...in which case i think thats ill-founded.....
---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------
on one hand you're saying that ppl who present proof of the course of a shinigami's growth in power and even further with proof of a similar growth (Gin also a prodigy) are just Hitsugaya haters and on the other hand when someone who knows what they're talking about (Shunsui) offers his expert expectation (having seen multiple captains of all sorts come and go over 500+ years should be enough to make you an expert imo), then its unlikely?
sounds like the opposite....bias towards a favourite character....so basically its yeah of course he's a prodigy everyone said so.....but then its no Shunsui is probably wrong and and he's off by 98 years too...come on so what other characters say about him in the manga is only true when its convenient?
so despite the fact that we have precedence of previous genious' and their level of growth and that he was unable to really improve drastically in 40 years of being captain now he will suddenly blow us away?
i'll have to see it to believe it
---------- Post added at 04:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------
but hey dont get me wrong here i do expect something special from him this time around and in this arc.....but we're not talking about suddenly going to near Yama-ji levels.....(which is what his potential really is)
Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 29, 2012 at 03:08 PM.
I sort of understand what you are saying but when youcan't compare how hitsu fared against aizen compared to how well gin did. Gin knew the weakness of aizen's KS. Aizen did not continuously use KS around gin the same way he did against the other captains. The other captains never had the time or chance to be close around aizen to understand how his zanpaktou works. Therefore, your comparison fails.
Just because hitsu became a captain in a few years does not equate to him growing to immeasurable strength in about 50 years. All strength grows exponentially at the beginning then it start to level off. That is common knowledge to comprehend. A noob first learn how to fight in all areas of combat. His mastery of them is shown by his exponential growth. But then that pace of growth levels out as said shinigami starts perfecting their technique. This is what determine a master level fighter and an Ultimate level fighter. The likes of Hitsu needs to refine his techniques before he can reach senior level strength. Such refine skills will take much longer to achieve then just learning the basics.
I also don't agree that gin is close to senior captain level. He is only around byakuya level.
I do agree that the VC are far from the levels of the captains. Kubo shot himself in the foot by showing the huge difference between a captain and a VC. thus even if byakuya's "death" motivated him to grow, it will take centuries before he even grow to byakuya's level. Therefore, it is not permitable with the timeline of the story. Thus, I don't see why people think that byakuya needs to die in order to make renji and rukia grow.
"prodigy isnt only about power"
meaning in this case whereas a very intelligent prodigy in Gin decided he didnt know enough about Aizen to jus try to take him down face to face, on the other hand both times that a very intelligent prodigy in Toshiro encountered Aizen he simply charged, yes Gin knew about the weakness but its his tactic in finding out that weakness that got him there and even then he still waited for the absolute best possible chance, Toshiro charged knowing full well he was under KS already (yes anger is fuel and i understand that most of the captains were seeing red at that point) however neverltheless Gin demonstrates what is to be expected from a 'Prodigy' with his wait and see approach/tactic whereas the other prodigy does not....despite having 2 tries....
so my comparison does not fail there either....of course in the end that comparison might jus come down to experience more than one person being smarter than the other its jus that he started his plans like 100 years ago, so even the fact of him having the advantage of being close to Aizen is an opportunity he himself created, which goes right back to being a young prodigy
all this is only to help solidy my point about Toshiro not being necessarily the 'better prodigy' simply based on the fact that he made it to captain at a younger age, at this point we've seen ppl who could be captain but arent....for various reasons so the fact of him not being a captain at the same age or younger than Toshiro doesnt prove anything since he was already strong enough to kill a 3rd seat fresh out of the academy...his only focus was Aizen from the time he stepped into the academy so who knows how he felt about rank....or how he saw it fitting in his plans to take down Aizen
---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------
imo Ichigo alone would have been able to take on Yami in Espada 0 mode.....which he demonstrated he pretty much could even BEFORE Unohana pointed out he barely had any power left whereas it took both Byakuya and Kenpachi to defeat him, and this is the same HEALED version of Ichigo that Gin was fighting in FKT
there can be an argument made that Byakuya has gotten stronger since then, however the only comparison we can make is Gin the way he was and Byakuya the way he was at the time of the FKT scenario
either way i say Gin is/was at least near that level of power.....plus there seems to be different levels of power within 'the senior level of power' whereas there's a Yama-ji whos far above the rest, I think Unohana is under him and then Shunsui and Ukitake are probably the next level, so saying Gin is likely near it isnt a stretch imo
---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------
so im not sure if u were agreeing with me there or jus sayin...
---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ----------
basically we agree tho that just because it was talked about it doesnt mean its doable within the timeframe of the Manga, BELIEVABLY <----Toshiro's potential
unless he finds himself a Hyperbolic time chamber, funny cuz he does actually remind me of Gohan lol
so i guess for those fans who want to see his evolution NOW, ur gonna have to pray Kubo gave him Dangai training.....but that seems like something thats reserved for the main character imo...and probably wont even be revisited
---------- Post added at 06:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------
i can even make a case once again using Aizen, there were 2 ppl he wasnt sure about, one was Urahara he had him banished, the other was Gin, he adopted the keep your friends close and your enemies even closer route with him, at the same time despite Hitsu being a known PRodigy with great power Aizen never really seemed too concerned about him, whereas it seems he was concerned with Gin from the time he was as old or younger than Hitsu
thats not necessarily a strong point but it says something nevertheless, essentially im not willing to Put Toshiro ahead of Gin, until he actually is...i guess is what im saying
that being said since one of em is M.I.A. or dead its not something we'll ever get an answer to, but its pretty clear once again that Hitsu has an advantage in Zanpakutos
---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------
p.s. that poll is awesome but it feels like votes will jus go to the character which has the most fans....which essentially means Gin doesnt stand a chance against the 2 most popular males in the manga LOL...nevertheless im interested to see the results, this poll would be awesome if asked again when Bleach ends tho, right now 2 of the 3 are unnoficially dead...so really Hitsu kinda HAS to win
lets be honnest tho in terms of polls of this sort i dont think Hitsugaya would lose to anyone lol....come on u guys all know it, even if he wasnt a prodigy i bet he'd win most of the time lol
Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 29, 2012 at 06:20 PM.
Gin has always been a character to hide his actual power, so it is quite hard to judge his strength.
All we know is that:
In the rescue Rukia arc, Gin was strong enough to toy with Hitsuguya (who was raging, so maybe not as calm and collected as he should have been)
In the turn back the pendulum arc, Gin was strong enough to easily demolish the 3rd seat, when he was a 5th (so was probably hiding his power from everyone outside of Aizen)
Aizen didn't know Gin's bankai's true powers until he got stabbed through the chest with it.
Now it has been stated that Hitsuguya has massive underlying potential - but this doesn't mean that he will be any quicker to obtain it than someone with less potential.
This does not mean that I think Hitsuguya isn't/wasn't quick in learning and developing his skills, just that I do not think that potential is something that should really be taken into account when discussing who is more talented. If you can never reach your true potential, then what does it matter what your potential was.
Now on to the question at hand:
Will Toshiro reach his true potential - maybe in a flashforward following the end of this manga
Is Toshiro currently more talented than Gin was - Not in my opinion.
Is Byakuya more talented than Gin was - As I said, Gin was hiding his powers the whole time, and still he looked on(/above in some peoples opinions) Byakuya's level, therefore I go with Gin again.
As to Byakuya vs Hitsuguya - Byakuya has always come across as more collected, smart, versatile (in different areas of shinigami skill NOT zanpaktou power). It was not (to my knowledge) stated that he got this power with anything more than hard work and dedication. I will, currently, go with Byakuya over Hitsuguya for this reason.
Therefore, in summary, my views on the order of talent for these 3 captains goes:
Gin -> Byakuya -> Hitsuguya
i guess in a way whether Byakuya is actually dead or not will definetly kill any doubts that Kubo's not playing around with this one
Gin was in my opinion at the time of FKT the better, but you have to remember the fact that when Gin got his captaincy, Hitsuguya was in the academy Learning which he still is doing. Gin on the other hand choose a different path, due to him knowing exactly what Aizen was doing which in turn made him lose his way, in a sense. Byakuya i'm not sure why he's even involved in this, he's a noble there's a tradition with nobles that there is always at least one born to become a Captain class shinigami so its a given but for him to be a natural talent and genius its unlikely he was book smart he learns from reading not by doing, where as Hitsuguya is someone that learns by doing and he thrives it, he's always training to become better..... And that's what Renji is like, he was always training to become the best he could be, okay he had a long way to go to be on the same level as Byakuya but he has potential
If you feel confident enough in the assumption to use it in an argument then I'd like to hear the evidence for it. And I don't recall it being stated that Hitsugaya has been a captain for roughly 50 years. And him having already been senior captain is not what i seem to expect of him, my whole argument is that him coming into his own is something that happens during the story.Quote:
That is speculative, we haven't seen any Kido or Hakuda from or even particularly long fights. His only real fight was Ichigo after Aizen had destroyed his will to fight. Gin knows Aizen better then anyone and even if it's not quite as fast as he told Aizen, still the fastest Bankai but we haven't seen him stack up to the other Senior Captain when they unleash their Bankais. There's reason that day is still a long way off.Quote:
Where was this stated?Quote:
Looking at the scene where he reveals he's gonna become a soulreaper, Gin seemed to only quall his temper by murdering some other poor random smuck in Aizen's place for the time being.Quote:
It do not believe he is going to save that day. Ukitake, Shunsui, Yamamoto and Unohana combined cannot be enough to save the day or what would the point be? But he'll continue to be relevant. Ichigo, Urahara, Isshin, the seniors, the vizards and Yoruichi already got the power to stay relevant even after Buckbeard kills Yamamoto and moved on up to deal with the Royal Guard. Ishida is lacking, hence why we are being hinted at that Ishida has far greater power then even he thinks. Kenpachi seemed lacking too. Guess who easily got the first three kills of what is otherwise a completely onesided massacre. Then there Byakuya and Toushiro. Apparently Byakuya had to be let go. Kubo ain't gonna get rid off both.Quote:
Yeah these are unfinished plotpoints. Kubo not managing to find a place for Orhime and Chad does not equate to Kubo not being able to put in that 100 year timeskip he always wanted to do to show what Toushiro got in store for him. It was never gonna be that long.Quote:
I had a problem with your argument because you didn't provide proof. I said mostly dislike, that is not the same as ALL are haters, and yeah if the expert estimation is "we will never ever ever see it play a role in the story", but it continues to be empathsised, I'm gonna hedge my bets.Quote:
I said he's gonna outdo Shunsui's expectations, I didn't say he'll by Yama level.Quote:
But as you say, it's not like Aizen was using Matsumoto against him. Quite the opposite, he let Gin handle Matsumoto as he saw fit and was even surprised when he seemingly killed her. There was tinsy tiny bit more urgency to Hinamori and Hitsugaya's plight. Now I'm not saying Gin didn't handle it better. But his willingness to watch the world be destroyed around him as he patiently waits for his chance to kill Aizen is demonstrative of more then just his inguinity.Quote:
We know the gap between 3rd seat and Captain is astronomical in just about every case. Though i agree that his decision to wait with becoming Captain may have had more to do with Aizen's plan (or perhaps honning his Bankai to the point that he'd be able to lie about it's true effects before being forced to demonstrate it to become Captain).Quote:
Like Kenpachi said, the fight against Yammy was incredible boring. He didn't say that about the even far weaker and less experienced Shikai Ichigo he faced. Yammy has 0 skill.Quote:
I don't want him to reach Yama level (or at least more then I would have wanted to see Gin survive and continue to be part of the story), but I think we WILL see him progress now or soon rather then in a epilogue set a propostorous amount of time in the future.Quote:
I don't believe that's what he said. He said he was aware and amused of Gin's decision to target him and try to stay close to him. He was wrong not be concerned. In the end Gin was the only one that made him feel fear, not Yama, not Unohana, not Urahara.Quote:
Last edited by RandomShikafan; July 30, 2012 at 07:52 AM.