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Also I don't think you realise how powerful Ichigo is. He transcended past the shinigami lvl so to compare him to Byakuya is just plain silly.
He caught Kirge's holy arrow with his hand should actually tell ya how powerful (physically) he must be also. His physical capabilities is greatly enhanced.
2) Ichigo is FAR superior to Byakuya in combat thus Byakuya would be fodder (Ichigo can take Byakuya out in less than 0.1 secs if Ichigo truely had to).
3) Ichigo is that much above Kirge that the logic just doesn't work. He also destroyed Kirge's ability of absorption to a degree (yes the disc on Kirge's head only helps increase his power of absorption. Once it's destroyed, it doesn't prevent him from absorbing for he is still a quincy) but to say because Ichigo (whose combat power & speed is in a tier of it's own) did it doesn't mean Byakuya can do it. In fact Kirge could simply absorb what Byakuya throws at him before it's even close.
4) Blut vene enabled Kirge to tank Ichigo's GT to the NECK. It's preposterous to suggest Byakuya can dish out the same lvl of power but more importantly Byakuya & his abilities are vulnerable to live.
5) KEY WORD: Ichigo caught them.
Even assuming byakuya was fodder to ichigo (which I do doubt) why does that suggest byakuya would be fodder to kirge? Kirge was at no point during the match even somewhat of a challenge to ichigo. The only moment at which he appeared to be vaguely dangerous was when kirge took the fight a level higher with his volstandig. Base kirge was fodder to shikai ichigo. Whatever advantage volstandig gave to kirge disappeared the second ichigo went bankai. Kirge had already lost the fight the second he could not change to blutz arterie. I would argue that even if urahara hadn't intervened during the fight kirge would have lost at that moment just the same. As far as we know blutz arterie does not make the user fast meaning that kirge still could not react to ichigo's speed and he was about as soft and mushy as just about any regular soul in the manga. And that is kirge with the added strength of allon (who I doubt is of captain level strength but still has decent power).
Blutz vene is hardly a measure of how strong someone is to begin with. Yamamoto's bare fists exceed the power of a captains bankai and we actually saw royd blocking the god damned ryujin jakka with blutz alone. Nodt had no trouble whatsoever blocking byakuya's sword with vene. Ichigo on his first try actually blocked a slash from the guy who killed yamamoto to the neck. If defeating the quincy was a simple matter of getting past blutz then the shinigami and the royal guard already lost the war against the quincy and lost miserably at that(almost as miserably as they would lose if captain level shinigami could be absorbed by your average stern rittern). The quincy do not have the benefit of blutz vene at all times, they necessarily have to drop it to actually attack and when they do drop it they are about as vulnerable as any captain level shinigami would be to attack.
In the end blutz is an exceptional defense however it has its risks and flaws. The moment a quincy attacks he is about as weak to enemy attacks as just about anyone. If he gets caught in a combo attack or fights a bankai which can attack relentlessly (say, byakuya's or gin's) then the stern rittern in question is turned into a punching bag taking hits without having enough room to counter.
For that matter, why would kirge be that strong to begin with? He was the first stern rittern introduced, are we to believe that he is among the stronger stern rittern out there? The scenario where he isn't one of the stronger stern rittern out there is even worst as any captain who is not shunsui, unohana or kenpachi would be screwed against them. If byakuya is fodder to kirge then what can love, soifon, rose, shinji, komamura, kensei, hitsugaya, mayuri, lisa, hiyori, urahara, soifon or tessai ever hope to contribute to the war? Granted there probably are a few stern rittern that can make fodder out of shinigami captains however the notion of kirge being vaguely in the same league as those is absurd. To be honest I don't even think kirge is on the same league as the stern rittern who got some mention during the invasion a while back (particularly the ones who got a double spread when the stern rittern got introduced).
Stern Ritter Member：予想より長引きましたね
That took longer than we predicted
It seems leniency is the only flaw my Stern Ritter possesses
"Mayuri is not even one of the stronger captains in terms of reiatsu." I honestly wonder were you are getting this from
If you were comparing him to Yamamoto's reiatsu then it's simple that he loses however so does every other captain.
What we do know about him is that he is a captain with captain class reiatsu & that goes for the rest of the gotei 13 members (not that the subject itself is relevent to the topic at hand). http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-15.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...22-page-6.html
2) Do you doubt Byakuya is fodder to Yamamoto?
Blut is a give & take system. Kirge made it sound like if Blut Vene is at 100%, Blut Arterie could then only be at 0% (meaning it can't be used at all). So if Blut vene is at 50%, blut arterie could only be used at maximum 50%. Kirge had to keep Blut Vene at full power against Ichigo's powerful & flash strikes. That's something Byakuya cannot hope to match.
Once Kirge uses the power of vollstandig, Byakuya becomes nothing but fodder to him. The boost vollstandig grands is mathematically greater than bankai. The user of the tech is pushed beyond his or her current max. Uryu used the inferior verson when his powers was undeveloped & decimated a captain...in bankai when he could hardly be considered vc level, so imagine what a captain class quincy would do with it while utilising it's full power.
3/4) First of all, rid of this mentality that gotei 13 even had a chance to begin with. THEY DIDN'T & STILL DON'T!! http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-21.html
The invasion of SS was a massacre that was meant to convey that this war is far beyond what the gotei 13 alone can handle hence we are introduced to other characters.
The moment Yamamoto died should have told ya that ain't no joke. It's not something gotei 13 can take care off (We have Kukaku also saying SS would be destroyed in the next invasion WITHOUT Ichigo).
We also don't know what the Royal Guards are capable off. For all you know these guys may have developed ways of exceeding certain limits (afterall, everything done in the spirit palace is literally done on God's scale). For all you know they may be 5x stronger than Yamamoto individually (which would be freakin awesome).
Another thing is, you can get around Blut Vene. Destructive force isn't the only form of combat. Blut Vene itself can be overpower with extreme force (like Yamamoto in bankai did) though it's even much harder to deal with the tech Blut when Vollstandig is activated.
4) You seriously doubting why a sternritter with the letter J appointed by His Majesty to be his own personally Guard would be strong?
Not that it matters anyway because HE WAS PROVEN to be strong & the activation of Vollstandig is the difference maker.
In fact Kubo conveniently used the legendary Ichigo (of all people) as the test subject for Vollstandig.
Last edited by Kay3795; January 28, 2013 at 11:04 PM.
And as I stated above, Mayuri isn't a fighter. Though, that attack could destroy a lot of things if they just sit around and wait for the attack to connect.
On a side note, 5x Captain-Commander strength would really be a lame revelation. My opinion about that.
Blutz is by no means a give and take system and no single manga instance actually suggests that. If anything, what the manga so far specifically says is the most extreme opposite. I guess there is room for urahara to be wrong up to this point however given the situation I kinda have my doubts. I mean, we are talking about urahara himself analyzing the battle ichigo was fighting. Even if you can learn to balance blutz, it is certain at least kirge did not have that ability.
Even better translations than manga stream say that vene and arterie cannot be used at the same time.
Some level of offensive ability exists while using blutz vene (as kirge was at least able to deal insignificant damage) however its completely irrelevant.
Volstandig and lets stilt provide an entirely different boost from bankai though, I would think that makes the two hard to compare. Volstandig charges the user with power it takes from around and results in an apparently proportional increase in power. In turn bankai simply consumes an overwhelming amount of power and focuses it into one technique, weapon or ability. The quincy do not have techniques which innately consume or even use an overwhelming amount of power and the shinigami do not have the overwhelming amount of reiatsu to use bankai comfortably (as we have seen bankai takes decades to master and even then it tires and strains shinigami). I would argue the situation in the manga will be that they kinda even out because of the limitations each of them will have. If quincy unique techniques without volstandig are comparable to a shinigamis shikai then with volstandig they will simply work like superpowered shikais which is still not quite the same as a bankai equivalent would be as the weapon itself wouldn't be innately using an overwhelming amount of power.
What kon said there is barely relevant. The quincy randomly appeared all through sereitei and had plenty of time until the captains had finished mobilizing to kill shinigami. Release the captains at the quincy base at random points where there are no captains and the result will be exactly the same, a bunch of soldiers and VC level dudes getting fodderized.
The reason SS was screwed was not that they were too weak to begin with. Its very easy for juhabach to say that when he waltz into sereitei with a weapon which specifically reduces a shinigamis power to a fraction of what it would normally be. Byakuya got defeated because he did not have his bankai with him. Yamamoto himself got defeated for not having his bankai with him. Plotwise the badges won't always be there to foil shinigami and the stolen bankais will get recovered. In the end the quincy did not win the last invasion through strength. If anything in a situation where strength was all that mattered I don't see any reason for the two forces to not be comparable to some degree (depending on the strength of the average stern rittern it is likely things still turn slightly to the quincies favor however that would be the case only if all of the 27 stern rittern are actually well above a VC class fighter).
The stern rittern are as far as the manga has told us the equivalent to captains and VCs. From what I gathered kirge was obviously well stronger than a VC level fighter however I don't see how the level he showed suggests he was altogether above the captain class. Kirges only purpose was to show off quincy abilities. I don't buy that ichigo's current strength is actually that of all the captains combined, that is beyond ridiculous on all accounts. If ichigo really had that kind of power then he wouldn't even need shikai to outright fodderized juhabach and yamamoto combined (since yamamoto also gave power to the sword). The point of the sword was not to make him into a guy with the combined might of every ally he has, the point was to awake the power which was already within ichigo. Ichigo is definitely stronger than before however I doubt that he is so much stronger than before that previous ichigo would be fodder.
No sealing device, Byakuya wins, while Volstanding gave a great boost to Quilge, I don't think he'd win against Byakuya with his Bankai