Blackbeard Teach is weak without his Devil fruit?
How strong is Blackbeard without his Devil fruit? To answer this; Shank's history needs to be dissected to a fair extent in order to fully understand the depth of Blackbeard's powers. There's only 1 person who truly knows how strong he is and that is Shanks.
When did Shanks get his scar?
Shanks (27 years old) was first seen in chapter 1 with Luffy who was aged 7 at the time.
Even in the Edd war which probably occurred in the 4th year of Roger's success in the New World, Shanks didn't have a scar and he was probably 15 years old at the time and shortly after Roger's death.
Shanks must have gotten his scar between Roger's death and before meeting Luffy which gives a time span of 11-12 years, will be sticking with 12 for simplicity.
Time Span between Roger's death and Luffy at aged 7?
Luffy was 17 years old when Shanks and Whitebeard met on the Moby Dick and 22 years had flown by since Roger's death. So when Luffy was 7 years old, 12 years had gone by since Roger died.
Haki was a common thing in the New World even back then?
Luffy fought Chinjao at 19 years old. Chinjao also claimed to have fought Garp 30 years ago, so this grudge was already in existence 11 years before Luffy was born. Chinjao and Garp also used haki 6 years before Roger's death so it was already something common in the New World and a requirement to survive.
If Shanks was sailing with Roger at the age of 15, he must have been a pretty exceptional pirate and must have been very well aware of haki especially being under the counsel of Roger and Rayleigh especially during such an era.
Teach fought with Shanks sometime before meeting Luffy and Roger's death without a Devil fruit and gave him a scar. Based on Shank's history, it's very likely that Shanks would have fought Teach with haki and this would have to mean that Teach too possessed haki since he didn't possess a Devil fruit at the time.
Shanks also makes sure to emphasize that despite fighting daily with Mihawk, the one who gave him is facial scar was none other than Teach himself ad it wasn't a careless mistake on his part but testament to Teach's strength alone; this heavily implies that Teach himself is stronger than Mihawk too.
It's obvious from Whitebeard's expression that he doesn't believe Teach is as strong as Shanks is making out and this is why Shanks attacks Whitebeard to prove his strength to Whitebeard as indicative of Teach's.
Some of the Whitebeard Pirates think Shanks attack Whitebeard in an attempt to initiate a war, but Marco says Shanks isn't that reckless.
For Marco to so confidently not be intimidated by Shank's reckless move is proof that he deems Whitebeard stronger and Shanks probably knows this too. The Redhair are also quite calm because they know Shanks is just trying to make a point in proving just how strong Teach is.
What does this mean?
It means Teach is as strong as Shanks which is why he pleaded with Whitebeard to have Ace pull out of his hunt for Blackbeard. At this point; Shanks hasn't even fought Teach with his Devil fruit, so it's quite indicative of just how powerful Teach is without a fruit.
Another thing to take into account is despite the fact the Yami Yami no Mi negates Devil fruit powers, it also makes his opponent's attacks stronger. His resistance to pain is testament to his strength too or the attacks from both Sengoku and Garp would have killed him despite the pain being amplified by his fruit.
If Teach is so strong, why does he need 2 Devil fruits?
One thing we've learnt about Teach is that he's pragmatic and objective, he holds no grudges and doesn't do anything unnecessarily. He also has no pride and is willing to be belittled for his goals, this is why the Whitebeard Pirates never truly knew how strong he was and why Whitebeard didn't believe Shanks.
Putting things into Perspective:
- How many Yonko have been present since Roger's death? 4 Yonko.
- How many years has it been since the last Pirate king? 24 years in current time line.
- Are the Yonko weak? Not at all.
How Smart Teach Is?
Though the Yonko are not weak; Yonkos like Kaido are all still trying to increase the strength of their armies and Big Mom is still focusing on increasing her fleet.
If being as strong as Whitebeard (strongest Yonko) isn't enough to make one Pirate king, then one needs to possess fleets and many subordinates which current Yonko are all doing.
Blackbeard knows being powerful enough to be a Yonko is not enough (which he is without his Devil fruit), but with 2 Devil fruits he's much stronger than any Yonko out there and surpasses Whitebead easily once he masters the Gura Gura no Mi.
He has both a Devil fruit that negates devil fruit abilities as effectively as Kairoseki (seastone) and another Devil fruit which deals more damage than any other; if anything, this shows just how much smarter Teach is compared to other pirates and how much planning along with patience he's put into fulfilling his goals.
Last edited by Hannibal Psyche; July 27, 2015 at 03:53 AM.
Well or simply Shanks deems him dangerous enough
Don't get me wrong, BB is strong, but who says that Shanks didn't get much stronger than him during that period ? We don't even know the exact circumstances when this happened (considering BB's nature, I tend to believe this may be a sneak attack)
I think what Shanks was afraid of was more than BB's strength, it was about his objectives and personality, as you said, BB can go to any length to reach his goal, something like dignity or pride don't mean nothing to him, he could backstab anyone to get whatever he wants
If I said Mihawk was weak, we all know that would be absurd; the main response I'd get is Mihawks is a guy who fought Shanks every day and that more or less proves his strength.
Now putting Mihawks aside, Shanks said he wasn't careless and emphsizes that he's not only been through many adventures and fought Mihawk countless times, but he wasn't careless against BB. If Mihawks can be deemed to be equally as strong as Shanks despite Shanks not hyping him up as much as BB, it's only consistent to assume that BB is on the same tier as these 2 at the very least.
Marco's reaction to Shanks clashing swords with WB wasn't even taken as an insult, so it's clear Marco himself knows Shanks isn't outrageous. It's most likely he only did that to prove how strong BB was through his own strength, so there's very little reason to not place BB on the same tier as Shanks and those alike.
BB seems to like shortcuts to get stronger, I doubt he went through the same hardships Shanks went through to reach his position of being a Yonko
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that BB currently is weaker than Shanks by a big margin (if they were to fight now, the fight could go end up in favor of any of them), but I do personally believe that Shanks having that scar is due to BB's scheme and him being sneaky
Does Shanks seems like the kind of guy who holds grudges ? Absolutely no, he must've gotten injuried a lot, yet it does seem he only " dislikes " BB as he commented on his scars
My point is, I doubt BB injured Shanks like that in a straight fight, doesn't make much sense to me as Shanks would simply acknowledge he was weaker during that moment and shrug it off, yet he doesn't seem to forget about it, so there must be some special circumstances there
He isn't the kind of hold grudges at all, he had fights to the death with Mihawk and yet they're friendly as fuck, we saw Shanks ever holding a " grudge " if we can call it like that when Luffy was taken by the bandits
However, he really seems that he can't forget about Teach, do you think Shanks would be bothered about a scar he got from a fair fight or 1vs1 ? I really don't think so
Also I do believe one of the reasons Shanks deems him dangerous is because of his twisted nature, as I said, that guy has no morals whatsoever except maybe believing in dreams and freedom, he deems him as a threat not only because of his powers/uniquey body
BB isn't the stereotypical villain, he's pragmatic and holds no grudges; he only does things if necessary. Then you have people like Enel and Crocodile who have superiority complexes and really weren't as strong as their personalities suggested them to be.
Last edited by Fox666; July 27, 2015 at 04:06 AM.
BB is not a liked character so he'd never get the benefit of the doubt no matter how strongly the evidence points at him being this strong, fact is if this was a back story of Kaido, Big Mom, WB or Marco; they'd equally be recognized to be as strong.
Anyone can be cunning, but that alone doesn't make someone powerful in OP. Captain Kuro in SBS has been possess said to possess 2nd highest I.Q. behind Benn Beckman; it still doesn't make Kuro the biggest threat since he's not powerful enough to execute his plans. So Neither should BB's aptitude for con be taken into consideration of his strength as they're 2 separate things.
---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 AM ----------
If anything, his fruit amplifies the damage he takes and this in fact makes his opponents stronger than they originally are so he's fighting with a huge defensive handicap when not grasping the enemy firmly.
If I said:
Point I'm making is we haven't seen their powers explicitly, but based on dialogue we're able to determine how strong they are. So why is it fine to ascertain their powers just by dialogue and rumours when BB has even more substantial evidence that proves his strength?
- Garp is weak: I'd be told no way, he fought Roger to stalemates and he was offered Admiral positions.
- Mihawk is weak: I'd be told no way, he fought Shanks daily so he's definitely on the level of a Yonko and we claim him to be strongest of the Shichibukai with no explicit evidence.
- Sengoku is weak: I'd be told he's fleet Admiral and is mentioned with Garp alongside Roger.
Take Shank's Monologue:
What about this looks like BB is just another relatively strong guy?Quote:
He worded himself carefully because he knew WB wouldn't believe:
I just can't see how such a guy can be regarded as weaker than Shanks when even Mihawk didn't do it and Shanks still had both hands before this even occurred.
- First he brings up how many battles his been and scars he received, yet none of them trouble him.
- Secondly, he says this scar wasn't from Mihawk (who we all know is powerful).
- Says he wasn't careless and this means it wasn't a sneak attack but a straight up fight; if it were, then would have to question if his haki is all we made it out to be.
- Finally gives Blackbeard the credit.
What else can explain why Shanks would draw his sword against WB if he wasn't trying to pull a stunt other than to give a clear score of BB's power? I think the evidence is pretty conclusive and there's not much implying otherwise.
I personally believe Yonko are much or less equal individually, although BB may still have room for improvement considering he's on a DF hunt, he could easily handle more than 2 DF if that's what Oda is trying to build up
He's a villain, a good villain is supposed to be hatedQuote:
We know BB was strong before the timeskip, we know his physical ability was outstanding, his tanking ability is exceptional but before that, I just cannot imagine him above Shanks, but now everything is possible
But don't forget that BB doesn't take huge risks despite what he says about fate, he calculates his moves and generally knows what's he's doing unless he gets cocky and there's a reason he choose to reveal himself to the world only after he got the Yami Yami No Mi
On what basis is Mihawk deemed to be equal to Shanks? based on these reasons, we can determine whether Blackbeard shouldn't be deemed equally as strong as Shanks except it's just bias.
We can't apply one standard and then disregard it for another character just because he's smart and cunning.
Blackbeard doesn't take huge risks? Let's see what he literally did on paper:
Aside from the raid on Drumm what has he done that involved no or at least reduced risks? Especially what he did during the Summit War Arc in Impel Down and Marineford actually involved a huge risk for his own life and the lives of his crew.
- He killed Thatch, a New World Elite fighter and earned the wrath of the (probably) strongest crew in the world.
- He raided Drumm Kingdom.
- He tried capturing Luffy while a Knock-Up Stream was incoming.
- He fought Ace in direct combat and probably got injured very badly since he can't avoid damage. It means he took that Flame Emperor even if it was offscreen.
- He entered Impel Down and almost got killed there. Then he released the worst criminals and took the worst of the worst in his crew without any idea if he could trust them.
- He faced Whitebeard head on and got almost killed again. The fight took place in close proximity to Sengoku who then went on to beat the shit out of Teach.
- After the war he proposed to exchange Jewelry Bonney for a battleship, but had to flee when Akainu arrived.
Yes Blackbeard is a calculating individual, but his plans have all been the "high risk high reward" kind of plans.
- Killing Thatch was for the fruit, initially he didn't want to do that and just wanted to get the fruit, but if he did it so casually it means it wasn't oh so risky for him
- With his Yami Yami no Mi, that was easy to raid Drum
- He probably didn't even know about Knock-up stream showing up at that moment, he just wanted to get him once he learned about his bounty
- He was very confident in his ability to beat Ace, it's not like he was facing a Yonko out there
- Okay entering ID was indeed risky, especially Magellan part, but him taking criminals isn't risky since again, he knew he could handle them
- He faced a half-dead WB, and assumed he could deliver the finishing blow (which he did) but wasn't expecting something like that from WB, his response to WB shows that where he literally panicked (which shows it was above his calculations)
- Well as you said it, he could've clashed with Akainu but he didn't and choose to gtfo because it is risky, he could've also taken Shanks in the war but he didn't
People find it impressive that he wanted to take on Sengoku/Garp, well dude was simply sure his crew could do the job to take them out, while it may be risky, the outcome could've been in his favor
Taking huge risks would've been fighting like the rookies did, get reputation and power, challenge the Yonko straight on, but he didn't, he choose the safest route to achieve power, I've seen Luffy in more risky situations compared to BB
As the above poster said, majority of his plans have been high risk with high rewards. No coward in their right mind would enter ID knowing only 1 person in the whole history has escaped or actually step into the Marineford War when there was risk of actually being in an all out battle with the WB pirates had WB himself not ordered Marco and co. to not get involved.
BB is calculative, but let's not forget someone who leaves things to fate is not a rational person with an active contingency plan.
BB wasn't sure he would be able to absorb WB's DF; had that gone wrong; his newly formed crew was ready to disband, that's a string of high risks he's taken.