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Thread: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

  1. #1
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ladylola's Avatar
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    Berserk Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Ok so I've been thinking about making this thread for a while now. Now that we have the full story on Alma Torran, and now that Arba/Gyokuen is dead, I think we could see a few parallels between the events in AT and what is happening now, namely Arba dying and Hakuryuu being the "bad guy" .
    First Aladdin decided to share the story of Alma Torran so that he could show to the king candidates what really happened, and that includes Solomon's failings, the creation of Al Thamen who up to that point were thought to be the main villains(and they still are imo). But his story didn't have the effect that he wanted, not all the king candidates agreed to stop fighting each other, if anything they did the contrary. But what I'm more interested in is how Alma Torran's story is kinda repeating itself in the present time.
    First you have a situation where there is war and conflict, in Alma Torran it was the resistance againt the Orthodox, in the new world it is the direct result of Al Thamen's interference, and the failures of the king vessel system, but I guess we could ignore that detail for now. For now we'll just say it's Al Thamen through Kou vs the world.
    Kou can be thought as the spiritual successor of what Solomon tried to achieve, although it is twisted. We could argue that giving all creatures the same magoi is similar to how Kou is unifying the countries it conquered by erasing their culture and giving them only one that is the dominant culture. So we could say that Kouen is kinda doing the same thing as Solomon.
    And just when everything about Al Thamen is revealed, and Kouen and the others realize who Arba is, she is revealed to be dead, killed by Hakuryuu nonetheless. Judal shows up and he has an aura so dark, kinda similar to Arba's when she killed Sheba, and that third eye doesn't help.
    But the more important aspect is what we've seen with Arba getting killed by Hakuryuu. In the final battle between the Orthodox and the Resistance, David dies or to be more accurate he self destructs, which is similar to how Arba died. David by the end seems to not even care about the Orthodox, and his only concern was to make Solomon and the resistance hate him.He also apparently had a bigger plan that involved him dying to be by Illah's side, although we still don't know what this plan really entails and if it's still ongoing. Arba also seems to have been making Hakuryuu hate her so that he would curse his destiny and become fallen, and that somehow is part of her plan, that also had her die by the end.
    So to me there is little doubt that Arba was inspired by David, not that he would whisper into he ear, but they both arrived to a similar conclusion, and they were ready to "die" in order to achieve their plan.
    And then we have the similarities between Solomon and Hakuryuu, in the way that both hated their parent, and wanted to kill them. Also they were easily manipulated by them.Solomon was given the key to access Illah's dimension by none other than David, while Hakuryuu after being fallen is now a potential candidate to summon Illah into the new world, and this imo is what Arba/Gyokuen was really after.We could also argue that Arba herself saw David like a father, and yet she wanted to kill him more than anything else, prolly because he made Illah into a dark shell.
    So we have a similar situation with a war going on, Arba taking on a similar role as David back in Alma Torran, as the one who is held responsible for everything that is bad, but more importantly for making Judal and Hakuryuu suffer and curse their destiny. And we have Solomon/Arba/Hakuryuu wanting to kill their genitor/creator. And we could say that we have someone who tries to fix things, Sheba for Alma Torran and Aladdin in the NW, although the way they're doing it isn't the right one. So we could say that history repeated itself and I can only see the NW heading to a situation where Illah is summoned and the world is on the brink of extinction.
    Now with the deaths of some characters which I see as being temporary, Aladdin is forced to work with Hakuryuu, and yet the latter seems to still have something up his sleeves. Either way I think this will be just a distraction and his plan could still backfire at him. The war is still on the table, even with the power of the medium apparently gone I still think there's a chance Hakuryuu could summon Illah, which is exactly what Arba has been planning. Rather than her coming back I think I want to see something like that happen, and maybe Aladdin trying to stop it like Solomon before him, but maybe failing. The only thing that could make a difference imo is David's prophecy, and what he calls the true utopia. The only thing that I liked in the scene at the summit after Aladdin finished his story is Sinbad's realization about Solomon. I think he realized like many of us that Solomon wasn't perfect, far from it, that he didn't even want to be King but was forced into it, and maybe similar to how Solomon deposed Illah, maybe Sinbad should do the same, or he could achieve what none have achieved, have those with black and white rukh coexist. Those are just theories at this point, but I don't think the chapter with David isn't going to be relevant, on the contrary, but only at the end, maybe when the world is about to be destroyed.
    Well these are my expectations for the rest of the manga, sadly I'm not sure if this theory will verify itself and it prolly gonna take a while to see that happen. In fact there's a high chance it's not gonna happen, since the manga has been very hard to predict lately, and Ohtaka was kinda random with her decisions.
    Last edited by ladylola; March 29, 2015 at 08:20 PM.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: Paralles between Alma Torran and the new world.

    And regarding David and Arba, what if after all this time Arba finally understood what David was after? So her trying to get Illah back could be helping David's plan if it's still relevant now, which I think it is.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Aonori's Avatar
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Yeah, about the whole parallel thing, I found it rather interesting that Ugo and Alibaba had similar roles in the Summit (more especifically when he puts himself between kouen and Sinbad) and in AT when Ugo puts himself between Sheba and Arba even though they are more sided into some factions (like Kou and king Solomon).

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g01's Avatar
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Yeah I realize those parallels too and I am very curious about ''true utopia'',it is not illah's era,not solomon's era and if you ask me what aladdin try to accomplish impossible so what is this utopia,is it place where everyone is happy(unlikely)...

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Quote Originally Posted by g01 View Post
    Yeah I realize those parallels too and I am very curious about ''true utopia'',it is not illah's era,not solomon's era and if you ask me what aladdin try to accomplish impossible so what is this utopia,is it place where everyone is happy(unlikely)...
    Well the true meaning of utopia is an ideal world where everyone is equal and where there is peace, so I would say that the world Solomon created is far from having achieved that. I think what Ugo said isn't accurate, no Al Thamen cannot be blamed for everything bad that happened in the new world, we don't know how the world was before they came, but judging from the stories about older civilizations like Kouga, it's possible that there were wars as well. The whole king candidate system makes it also impossible to achieve equality like the kind Solomon dreamed off, because you have royalty who are given an incredible power and they're free to do whatever they want with it. And then there is the Fanalis that are forced into slavery. And the king candidate system only creates more strife, instead of having peace. Even someone like Yunan has been playing a role in that, by raising a lot of dungeons and having multiple king candidates at the same time, even before the interference of Al Thamen(he's pretty old). So yeah the new world isn't an utopia, and even Alma Torran wasn't the true utopia, but David apparently knows what it is, and he made sure that Solomon will create a new world.And according to David it's the true singularity that will achieve the true utopia(Solomon and Aladdin aren't singularities). Although we can't be sure that the true singularity is a person or a state that describes the utopia. Either way I think his prophetic writing will be relevant to the story in the future.

    ---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aonori View Post
    Yeah, about the whole parallel thing, I found it rather interesting that Ugo and Alibaba had similar roles in the Summit (more especifically when he puts himself between kouen and Sinbad) and in AT when Ugo puts himself between Sheba and Arba even though they are more sided into some factions (like Kou and king Solomon).
    Yes I guess I didn't pick that one. The point was to show that some elements are the same between the two periods, so maybe we will see a similar situation by the end. The story is far from being over, so maybe there will be other instances were we could draw parallels between the main story and Alma Torran, maybe it's even happening. If there is a new faction that will help Hakuryuu, their role could be like that of Al Thamen by the end of Alma Torran, or maybe it even could be them, and these are just bodies they left behind in order to continue to manipulate Hakuryuu.
    Last edited by ladylola; March 30, 2015 at 07:06 AM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Am I the only one who think Sindria is similar to AT?

    Spoiler show


    Al Thamen means eight pointed star, the eight magicians of resistance and In Sindria there's eight generals... Both of them one king and seven households. Yamuraiha is like a mixture of Ugo and Solomon. Ugo and Yamu both are genius magicians and hopeless with the opposite sex. David and Mogamet did basically the same thing in Orthodox and Magnosdat, Solomon and Yamuraiha are both children who opposed their father (figure). And It just might be me but clothing looks so simlar.... Solomon's new outfit looks like what Sinbad's been wearing all along, and the household members are wearing similar loose robes over their original outfit like eight generals.....

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    True, their last outfit with the outline looks a lot like Sindria's uniform, but we could argue that the Sindria costume is based on the Parthevia one. I think it would be more accurate to say that Sindria encompasses many elements from other cultures, like Parthevia and unconsciously AT, the salute is reminiscent of the Imuchak one, but also looks like how the magicians used to pay their respect to Illah, and later Solomon.Yeah there are plenty of elements that are shared between these cultures, but in terms of idiology by the end Alma Torran was more like Kou, because of everyone looking the same and having the same magoi, even the other species looked more human than when they were first introduced. And Kou is doing something similar by erasing other cultures and replacing them with that of Kou, and pretty much everyone looks the same(same outfits etc with a few differences in terms of color).

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladylola View Post
    True, their last outfit with the outline looks a lot like Sindria's uniform, but we could argue that the Sindria costume is based on the Parthevia one. I think it would be more accurate to say that Sindria encompasses many elements from other cultures, like Parthevia and unconsciously AT, the salute is reminiscent of the Imuchak one, but also looks like how the magicians used to pay their respect to Illah, and later Solomon.Yeah there are plenty of elements that are shared between these cultures, but in terms of idiology by the end Alma Torran was more like Kou, because of everyone looking the same and having the same magoi, even the other species looked more human than when they were first introduced. And Kou is doing something similar by erasing other cultures and replacing them with that of Kou, and pretty much everyone looks the same(same outfits etc with a few differences in terms of color).

    And that's why I think Sindria is more fit to be compared to AT than Kou is.

    What Kou's doing is basically a repitition of what Solomon did, and we all know how horribly he failed. Solomon's ideal was not about making everyone talk same language and have same magoi, he was curious about other species and the difference of their cultures... But he evolved other species into human and erased all the differences because he thought the difference was the reason they kept fighting. The point is Solomon did it to cease conflict, and it was a natural progression of evolution which took like hundreds of years so nobody got upset about it. Kou is creating conflict by forcing it for like.. ten years? They are mimicking Solomon, but they aren't really getting him, and they certainly don't understand why he failed. On the other hand Sinbad's idiology is a world without war pretty much like Solomon, but he's trying to realize it by accepting and acknowledging the difference between people. And Sinbad is always taking roundabout ways, persuading others to the level of manipulation when Solomon took the direct way without listening to anyone... It's like Sinbad already knew about Solomon and learned from his failure.

    And yeah you can say the similarities in outfit might be a coincidence if this is in reality. But this is a manga and if Ohtaka drew one thing and the other deliberately similar she's trying to imply something. She drew Sinbad and David similar in appearance to hint they share something in common, like they're both singularlities. There should be a reason she designed AT's outfit similar to Sindrias's, too.


    +Oh, and this is just a random guess but I have a feeling that what happen in Sindria which probably made Sindbad half fallen would be similar to what happened in the base of resistance in AT..
    Last edited by Jan123; March 31, 2015 at 08:52 AM.

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    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Yeah I get what you're saying, Solomon's original plan ressembles twhat Sinbad is doing, but really that's it. Since it didn't get to be realized in AT we shouldn't dwell on it too much, and frankly Sinbad is a much better ruler than Solomon could ever be, plus it's not like Sinbad knew what to do in order to realize Solomon's original ideals.
    I think the outfit thing could also be linked to the fact that the "humans" in the new world all originally came from AT, simple as that. I think the memory of Alma Torran was kept alive, even unconsciously. You also have countries that have Toran transcriptions of Alma Torran, so I wouldn't be surprised that when the first inhabitants settled in they continued to wear the same clothes, build similar buildings to the ones in AT, and their descendants continued to wear these clothes, although some of it could have been lost, but not all of it imo. As for the ressemblance between Sin and David the official reason is that Ohtaka is bad at drawing new faces, she even admitted that when she drew Solomon he ended up looking like Hakuryuu. Plus the colored version of David is a bit different, he has light blue/green eyes and grey hair. But I guess it's true that those two share some obvious similarities, even in the way they dress.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Yeah but why Sindria? Why not Kou, Reim or Kouga? Sindria didn't even exist ten years ago...
    I just think that if Sindria is the only country with outfits like AT in the period, there should be a reason.


    OK and this is stupid, but one more similarity, it's just stuck in my head and I need to get this out....
    According to the Bible, Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

    Spoiler show


    I know this is silly but Ohtaka sometime does foreshadowing with really silly things like that eyebrow omake with Sinbad...
    Last edited by Jan123; March 31, 2015 at 09:13 AM.

  12. #11
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ladylola's Avatar
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    Re: Parallels between Alma Torran and the new world.

    Considering the design for Sindria came first I suppose, shouldn't it be that AT is based of Sindria instead ? but yeah she does some weird "foreshadowing".
    Last edited by ladylola; March 31, 2015 at 10:02 AM.

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