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Thread: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

  1. #1
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yvain's Avatar
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    About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    I feel we need a thread like this, dedicated to discussing how we think magic works in the Magi universe (for example, how the Isolation Barrier or Solomon's Wisdom work).

    We can post doubts and questions, give our opinion and try to answer them.

    For example, my first question would be ones about the use of black rukh I made in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvain View Post
    I think an interesting point is that Matol Mogamett, while he lost control, was using a massive "Dark Djinn Equip" of sorts, which allowed him to use his massive pool of magoi and black rukh to its fullest.

    Judal controlled the black rukh much better than Mogamett and remained in control, but he just stored it within himself and used it as a battery for magoi, and relied on his usual spellcasting for the actual fighting, which puts a limit to his power output.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvain View Post
    By the way, the fact that Judal can get a power-up by storing black rukh and using it as a magoi battery makes me think...does black rukh and rukh separated from a living body still keep producing magoi? if so, do the Djinni stored in Metal Vessels produce their own magoi in addition to the one their King Vessel gives them?

    And what about rukh or black rukh stored in your body? Can a person greatly enhance its magoi output and reserves by assimilating a lot of rukh, or there is a limit to the magoi a physical body can produce regardless of its rukh?

    I mean, if Ithnan or Falan assimilates the black rukh of ten people, will they get the full magoi output of that people? If ten people were to willingly assimilate their rukh to that of Yamu or Alibaba (like Kassim did), would they get their magoi output rise tenfold?
    Also, about the power level of Alma Toran's magicians:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eastgrove View Post
    Regular magicians used the barrier in the AT arc.
    Yep. And if Mogamett actually developed a way to cast it, it means that he went beyond mere theorical calculations. I don't think Judal has the skill, patience and know-how to bridge the leap between a complicated magical theory and practical, applied magic.

    I'm ot two minds about the subject of the power of magic of Alma Toran's magicians.

    I sometimes think that Alma Toran's magicians had a level of power somewhere in between a Magi and a regular magician because they got their power directly from Ill Illah.

    They suffered a loss of power when Solomon became god...

    That said, it could be that they were like present sorcerers and Solomon turned them into witch doctors/fortune tellers...The Toran People lost their ability to use magic, so that could mean that most of the Alma Toran humans lost their ability to use magic , except a few lucky ones born with a lot of personal magoi.

    Arba gained them by teaching them to manipulate black rukh, which, while not making them so powerful as Magis, gives a magicians access to a vast source of easily controlable rukh and magoi.
    Last edited by Yvain; March 18, 2015 at 05:06 PM.

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  3. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Aonori's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Well I guess I would like start this discussion by explaining a lil more on the black rukh or at least, some of it´s power to the extent of what we know and what was confirmed, apparently it´s considered easier to control than white rukh (http://www.manga2u.co/magi_2u/163/07/) and capable of easily creating artificial life forms (http://www.manga2u.co/magi_2u/163/08/) with a alchemy magic formula probably similar than Yunan´s but case it´s involving black rukh it´s easier to perform and therefore regular sorcerers can possibilily create those (http://www.manga2u.co/magi_2u/163/09/) (good synergy with zagan too probably so I wouldnt be surprised if black rukh was the reason why the "Edgelord" can spam Zagan´s magic fairly easily now XD), seems obvious that it has a straight connection to Illah, especially after Solomon stripped him of his white Rukh and put it all in the physical world as ugo said it was present in illah´s dimension and it would take a power on par with illah to bring all that rukh down (http://www.manga2u.co/magi_2u/226/18/) it´s basically also associated with the transition of white to black rukh so it probably takes the existence of white rukh in order for the black rukh to be originated maybe in a yin Yang eff?
    Last edited by Aonori; March 18, 2015 at 04:31 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yvain's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Another question: Do you people think a regular white rukh magician could learn Ithnan clone/regeneration spell? The one he used to turn his rukh into a snake and survive the beheading of his real body?.

    What about the one he used to regenerate pieces of his clone body into more clones every time he was cut?

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member AlphaIkaros's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvain View Post
    Another question: Do you people think a regular white rukh magician could learn Ithnan clone/regeneration spell? The one he used to turn his rukh into a snake and survive the beheading of his real body?.

    What about the one he used to regenerate pieces of his clone body into more clones every time he was cut?
    I think white rukh magicians cannot learn or do the regeneration spell. First, the reason why Ithnan can create clones of himself is because he is nothing but a being formed with his consciousness. I mean like Gyokuen said, members of Al Thamen had returned to the world with only their consiousness/thoughts. When Ithnan died, he returned into a doll before Sinbad crushed it for good.

    Second, it was stated that only the black rukh can be manipulated to create new creatures, such as create black djinns. Ithnan(of the new world), for example, used black rukh to create curse on Sinbad and Alibaba.

    The new world is filled with white rukh, thus Solomon's rukh with his will on it, while Black rukh is not from that world or it opposes the will of Solomon's. Thus, black/fallen magicians can manipulate it.

    +-----+-----+-----+-----+|Magi Section|Tumblr|+-----+-----+-----+-----+

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yvain's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaIkaros View Post
    I think white rukh magicians cannot learn or do the regeneration spell. First, the reason why Ithnan can create clones of himself is because he is nothing but a being formed with his consciousness. I mean like Gyokuen said, members of Al Thamen had returned to the world with only their consiousness/thoughts. When Ithnan died, he returned into a doll before Sinbad crushed it for good.
    I think white rukh magicians could learn the regular "put your mind in a clone body" spell. David and the Orthodoxy did it before Solomon took over, an Scherezade does a variant too.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaIkaros View Post
    Second, it was stated that only the black rukh can be manipulated to create new creatures, such as create black djinns. Ithnan(of the new world), for example, used black rukh to create curse on Sinbad and Alibaba.
    You are probably right about this one.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g01's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvain View Post
    Another question: Do you people think a regular white rukh magician could learn Ithnan clone/regeneration spell? The one he used to turn his rukh into a snake and survive the beheading of his real body?.

    What about the one he used to regenerate pieces of his clone body into more clones every time he was cut?
    I think they both can use every magic type but black runk user's capacity much wider then magician with white runk

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yvain's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    The borg is supposed to detect malicious intent and automatically activate when somebody attacks you, isn't it?

    But Sphintus Carmen's Yoah Reg wasn't stopped by a high level magician's borg, and Umm Madaura's Holy Mother Halo Fan wasn't stopped by Aladdin's borg...

    Do we know of any other magical attack that goes through the borg?

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    Global Moderator MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvain View Post
    The borg is supposed to detect malicious intent and automatically activate when somebody attacks you, isn't it?

    But Sphintus Carmen's Yoah Reg wasn't stopped by a high level magician's borg, and Umm Madaura's Holy Mother Halo Fan wasn't stopped by Aladdin's borg...

    Do we know of any other magical attack that goes through the borg?
    Borg is not automatic, it is not protecting magicians everytime they are attacked. Borg must have varying durability depending on the user, as long as the attack is superior to the Borg's defensive capacity it will be enough to pierce it.
    Last edited by Demonspeed; March 24, 2015 at 12:04 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Ok I have a question:
    Can someone plzz tell me what is the relation between magoi and rukh?

    How does this rukh memory thing work really, the rukh is supposed to be the storehouse of memories of people while they are alive and it also has its own will, so if that were the case how was it that Solomon killed all the people who died during Ill Ilahs reign, since it has been like this since the beginning that rukh can have its own memories and yet its own seperate will as well?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hll View Post
    Ok I have a question:
    Can someone plzz tell me what is the relation between magoi and rukh?

    How does this rukh memory thing work really, the rukh is supposed to be the storehouse of memories of people while they are alive and it also has its own will, so if that were the case how was it that Solomon killed all the people who died during Ill Ilahs reign, since it has been like this since the beginning that rukh can have its own memories and yet its own seperate will as well?
    This topic is very tricky for we do not know the full nature of rukh, destiny and things like that but here is what i personally think

    Magoi is the energy the rukh creates which people can use for their magic, MV, magoi manipulation and etc

    As for the rukh, my theory is this, yes, individual rukh has its own memory and will however the collective will of this rukh is known as the great flow, the guidance of the rukh which is also Solomon's will which is why Wahid believed that their son has been altered because of Solomon's action as his will did override Ill Ilah, whether or not it actually changed their souls, this we do not know

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaipher View Post
    This topic is very tricky for we do not know the full nature of rukh, destiny and things like that but here is what i personally think

    Magoi is the energy the rukh creates which people can use for their magic, MV, magoi manipulation and etc

    As for the rukh, my theory is this, yes, individual rukh has its own memory and will however the collective will of this rukh is known as the great flow, the guidance of the rukh which is also Solomon's will which is why Wahid believed that their son has been altered because of Solomon's action as his will did override Ill Ilah, whether or not it actually changed their souls, this we do not know
    So we still don't know whether Tess' memory was destroyed by Solomon or not, and just when I thought Solomon could be redeemd for the sin that he commited, his sin of 'arrogance'

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hll View Post
    So we still don't know whether Tess' memory was destroyed by Solomon or not, and just when I thought Solomon could be redeemd for the sin that he commited, his sin of 'arrogance'
    You see, I dont doubt Solomon good will in this absolutely controversial move as king but his kind intention is viewed as arrogance or worse, malice is because the populace was confused at his course of action, they didnt understood what happen hell, we as reader dont even know what was going on, what was change, how different was it now compared to Ilah's reign and the list goes on, so much problem was created because of 1 simple reasons, lack of clarification

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Aonori's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaipher View Post
    You see, I dont doubt Solomon good will in this absolutely controversial move as king but his kind intention is viewed as arrogance or worse, malice is because the populace was confused at his course of action, they didnt understood what happen hell, we as reader dont even know what was going on, what was change, how different was it now compared to Ilah's reign and the list goes on, so much problem was created because of 1 simple reasons, lack of clarification
    The lack of a dominant ruler also made it´s impact in AT, Ugo, Sheba and Arba literally became AT´s strongest magicians after what Solomon, did, Arba and Sheba were at opposite extreme sides of the POV of the situation while Ugo even though he respected Solomon more than Illah and Arba, still tried his best to stop the conflicts between the two of them acting as a sort of Alibaba there to prevent any conflict, in the end Sheba couldnt see through Arba and the rest of AT members facade til it was too late and pretty much allowed them to do what they wanted as a counter-power to her own, thats why Ugo had the opinion that more than one king was necessary in the future since if it´s just one king like Solomon once he gets out of commissions things will fall apart all over again like AT.

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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aonori View Post
    The lack of a dominant ruler also made it´s impact in AT, Ugo, Sheba and Arba literally became AT´s strongest magicians after what Solomon, did, Arba and Sheba were at opposite extreme sides of the POV of the situation while Ugo even though he respected Solomon more than Illah and Arba, still tried his best to stop the conflicts between the two of them acting as a sort of Alibaba there to prevent any conflict, in the end Sheba couldnt see through Arba and the rest of AT members facade til it was too late and pretty much allowed them to do what they wanted as a counter-power to her own, thats why Ugo had the opinion that more than one king was necessary in the future since if it´s just one king like Solomon once he gets out of commissions things will fall apart all over again like AT.
    And just like in AT, things are falling apart in this world as well, sigh btw is there any information as to how those guys returned at all.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Yvain's Avatar
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    Re: About Metal Vessels, Magic, Magoi and Rukh's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Borg is not automatic, it is not protecting magicians everytime they are attacked.
    But Sheba implied that her Borg detected evil intention on its own. As in a kind of spider-sense...
    Spoiler show


    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Borg must have varying durability depending on the user, as long as the attack is superior to the Borg's defensive capacity it will be enough to pierce it.
    Yes, but I was speaking of spells that seemingly go through the Borg without being affected by it at all...

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