There seems to be a predisposition to spreading the blame around for basically anything and everything that happens, especially when it involves controversial and sensitive characters and topics. And I think that's just silly to do since it undermines the ability to actually resolve a point of discussion and conflict.
Point in case, Hakuryuu. Some people seem to think that Alibaba and Aladdin were actually wrong to confront him. That the result was as much their fault as it was the edgelords' and that's completely bogus and ignores basically everything at lead up to the final outcome. People are only looking at the result and casting blame on all involved, content to call it mere tragedy or even worse, absolve the antagonists of their misdeeds!
I'm going to try and go over what actually went down and frame it objectively. Meaning nothing but the TRUTH, no matter who it hurts, because that's what objectivity is. Objectivity doesn't care about people's feelings or beliefs. It runs them down like a dog and tears them to shreds.
So starting out Alibaba decides to meet with Hakuryuu, going over Kouen's head to do so. He points out that who is the Emperor of Kou is up in the air and as such who actually owns Balbaad. He does not know at this point that Hakuryuu has effectively declared war on Kouen and his followers, since he's been out of the loop for a week traveling from the Summit to Kou's capital city. He only knows that he's killed Gyokuen and not exactly how he went about it. He doesn't know the political reality of the situation. For all he knows, the troops that helped him with the coup were actually loyal to him.
His reasons for doing so are obvious. At this point, it makes no sense to be loyal to Kouen when his supposed friend is going to become Kouen's boss. Even though the offer was good, Kouen's never done Alibaba any favors and isn't exactly the friendliest type.
And again, while he doesn't know what exactly is going on, he knows it's the kind of situation that might lead to a war, which would involve Balbaad. He's chosen to try and head off a civil war and from his point of view, he might think he has reason to believe that Hakuryuu would listen to him more than Kouen would, never mind that again the actual ruler of Balbaad is up in the air.
Hind sight is 20/20 and Hakuryuu's fall into depravity was while a real possibility, even highly probable and predictable, it wasn't something they could have been aware of ahead of time. Finding out what happened was all part of his journey to meet Hakuryuu.
Now, Alibaba saying that the Alma Toran story would somehow make it all better was completely stupid. That the story had no clear moral and was practically a fairy tale compared to the reality he was facing just made his seemingly firm belief that it would matter at all to anyone was really facepalm inducing, but it was really only part of his strategy and reasoning for his meeting with Hakuryuu.
Summed up, Alibaba only wanted to talk with Hakuryuu and hopefully avoid a civil war. He had no reason to believe that Hakuryuu wouldn't listen to him, let alone attack him.
Now let's talk about Hakuryuu...well, what's there to say? He tried to brainwash and kill a guy that considered him a friend. Alibaba didn't do anything wrong during that conversation other than TRY TO REASON WITH HIM. Pointing out that Hakuryuu may, in fact, have to fight his sister while treading the path he was on was NOT a bad thing. What Alibaba did amounted to telling someone that they were about to walk off a cliff. What Hakuryuu was saying made no sense to Alibaba because Hakuryuu was spouting nonsense that would only lead to people being killed for practically no reason whatsoever!
Alibaba tried to reason with a madman, who he didn't realize was insane before it was too late. If what Alibaba did was wrong, it would have had to have been based on what he knew of Hakuryuu ahead of time.
And even so, Alibaba was afraid that Hakuryuu might have actually changed since they last met. He expressed worry and relief at the start of their conversation when he used Hakuryuu's growth spurt as an ice breaker.
Now for Hakuryuu, all you have to do is consider the hypocritical and contradictory mess of things he says and does. His supposed ideal is one that basically gives him a license to kill anyone that he wants for any reason, truthful or otherwise. He has no reason to fight Kouen, just as he had no reason to fight Alibaba, but he sure as heck finds reasons to.
Hakuryuu tells lies and distortions, and it's incredible how blatant he does so. It's clear that he's not someone that is interested in truth and justice, doubly so when they're an obstacle to whatever he wants. Graciously extending this attitude towards the rest of the world in a take it or leave it manner doesn't validate what he believes. Being okay with his personal destruction and the destruction of the world as long as he's satisfied is pure evil.
Nice read and I can agree with most of your points, but there are a few which I dont feel are quite accurate.
He actually has legitimate reasons to attack Kouen, not righteous ones or even good ones (he underestimates Kouens intelligence when he thinks that Kouen would just accept AT with open arms after he knows what they are capable of) and even if you disregard this, the whole civil war is as Alibaba put it a 'Succession War' even Hakuryuu does not use this as a reason, he needs to eliminate Kouen and his faction in order to solidify control.Quote:
I am not sure about insane, reckless, over confident( maybe not after this fight.), hyper, determined, yes, frankly the problems with Hakuryuu is that this guy is in total control of his emotions when he is cautious, so calling him insane is not entirely accurate, he is more of a psycopath than an insane man.Quote:
Part of what Alibaba needed to do was hear Hakuryuu's side of the story. Keep in mind that again Alibaba doesn't actually know how far Hakuryuu has taken things at this point. He doesn't know that Hakuryuu has declared most of Kou's military to be traitors, and he sure as heck doesn't know that Hakuryuu intends to destroy his country with a war. He really didn't know what Hakuryuu was thinking or planning and meeting him was really the only way to do so.Quote:
He doesn't have any reason, since Kouen would have made him Emperor if Hakuryuu weren't insane.Quote:
And well that did not end nicely and honestly the only real mistake in this situation is that Alibaba let his personal feelings regarding his country and Hakuryuu being his good friend, come in the way of thinking clearly, honestly it does not what Alibaba would have said and done, insane or not the point which Hakuryuu had reached was basically the point of no return, since he did not know anything about what Kouen really felt regarding Hakuryuu and probably thought that Kouen would try to kill him, when in fact if he had just decided to talk things out( by some miracle, the years of neglect on Kouens end would have eradicated.), then Kouen would have entertained in spite of the edict (which would not be a huge problem since Hakuryuu did have a magi and a strong faction under him.)Quote:
And he does not know that, for all you know he might still consider Kouen a subordinate of AT, frankly I am wondering how Hakuei developed such a deep relationship with Kouen( they must have talked on various occasions, the amount of familiarity can't be developed in a matter of months from her capture of Paimon.)Quote:
The only thing his personal feelings interfered with was his willingness to injure Hakuryuu, which he ultimately abandoned in favor of stopping him. I really can't fault Alibaba too much for that since the situation escalated very quickly. If he could defeat Hakuryuu without really injuring him, that would be preferable to him and so that's what he tried to do.Quote:
Hakuryuu was not neglected. I really don't understand why people think he was mistreated at all.
No one from Kou was ever a subordinate of AT.Quote:
Kouen has known Hakuei on a personal basis for more than a decade. His first meeting with her was likely illegal and he pledged his service to her.
He does think he was neglected, which I find strange, I mean even Kougyoku was given attendants, in mysogynistic society you would think that Hakuryuu would be given at least somebody to instruct him and see to his needs, besides his sister. Hakuei had that little guy who was alwys with her,and I think every princess must have gotten somebody who at least saw to their needs.Quote:
The problem lies in the fact that the only POV we have is Hakuryuus and he is quite biased towards everything related to AT and the government of the Kou Empire comes under that, I guess, hope fully we should get some other POVs and have a clearer idea about how his childhood was.
Hakuryuu certainly seems to think so, with how he says how AT greedily devoured his country.Quote:
And yet he thought that her situation was as bad as his, before she conquered Paimon, one would think that if Kouen and Hakuei actually were on very, very good terms Hakuryuu would have been less biased towards him.
Oh boy, it feels like I'm taking the bait by writing a response.
Funny you should talk about objectivity, as you are known on this forum for your objective view, right? ....yeah. But let's try to play along and be objective.Originally Posted by Eastgrove
He's a king vessel, he should at least have a slight and vague idea of the political situation the country he serves is in. Especially considering that Kouen, before the summit, told Alibaba that he will never allow Hakuryuu to rule. http://mangafox.me/manga/magi_labyri...2/c212/14.htmlOriginally Posted by Eastgrove
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what the next situation is going to be.
Oh and was it really a week of travelling for Alibaba and Aladdin to the Kou capital? If so I wonder how long Aladdin took on his way back, while also having the lifeless Alibaba with him. Probably the same week or more? I guess Hakuryuu is fully recovered by the time Kouen attacks in that case.
You just contradicted yourself. A few lines above you said that the title of emperor is still in the air and now you think Alibaba thought Hakuryuu will become Kouen's boss? Even though Kouen told him, as I said above, that he will never allow Hakuryuu to become king? Strange objectivity you have.Originally Posted by Eastgrove
You're right, but what do you mean with "listen to him"? This would only make sense if Alibaba actually had anything of relevance to say. The AT story is unrelated and everything else is just begging for Hakuryuu not to go to war. Very convincing and easy to listen to. If Hakuryuu accepted what little Alibaba had to say, I would be the first one to call him insane. And what did Alibaba do once the obvious happened(Hakuryuu not listening to him)? He tried to convince him by using other shady means like "your sister might get hurt and Morgiana and Aladdin too" which again, is completely irrelevant. At this point it's obvious Alibaba is just trying to force Hakuryuu into submission. He offers no solutions to problems, he only cares about stopping the war. That's not a bad thing, but he handled everything far too poorly as if Hakuryuu was your normal commoner.Originally Posted by Eastgrove
Not that depravity means he would certainly kill both of them. But if all he wanted was to find out what happened, congrats to Aliababa, he found out and died in the process.Originally Posted by Eastgrove
I agree.Originally Posted by Eastgrove
No, Alibaba wanted to say anything he can to persuade Hakuryuu. He wouldn't have left peacefully even if Hakuryuu said "Let's stop talking, I'll still bring war to Balbadd, you can go now". Who would be the one starting the "attack" in this scenario I wonder?Originally Posted by Eastgrove
Does Alibaba being a friend even matter in this situation? If he lets him go, he will have to fight him later together with Kouen and everyone else. Letting him go would have made the war a lot harder. Or what do you think while thinking "objectively" as you say you do. Would he not have fought Alibaba later? Would it be a smart move to fight 6 kings at once instead of taking one out sooner and deal with 5 later? As you see, he had plenty of reasons to attack Alibaba. And as I said, Alibaba didn't try to reason with Hakuryuu, he only cared about Balbadd and stopping the war. He couldn't care less what reasons Hakuryuu has as long as Balbadd is in danger.Originally Posted by Eastgrove
No, Kouen and everyone else were always Al Thamen's subordinates and being used by them. You do know that Kouen's superior, the empress, is the leader of Al Thamen right? Compare it with what Hakuryuu is doing to Al Thamen now. Hakuryuu controlls them, while Kouen was controlled by them. Clear as day. You shouldn't let your love of Kouen get between you and your "objective reasoning"Originally Posted by Eastgrove
Oh and by the way, you clear Alibaba of any guilt because he didn't know many things? How is that a valid excuse? It's his fault for not knowing vital things and disregarding any danger his action could have. That's like saying people who do things accidentally are clearly innocent of what they did because it was an accident. They take the blame for a reason.
I'll just stop here and wait for your response, if one comes. Overall, I rate it 2/10, try harder next time.
Last edited by GrySun; April 12, 2015 at 12:19 PM.
That is only when it comes to Aladdin as far as what I have seen, you'll guys say he finds nothing wrong with Post Hakuto and Pre-Civil War Kou Empire, but I have not found any of those posts( and the ones in the Kouen Ren thread did not give off a non-objective vibe, well at least to my recollection.)Quote:
That was before Hakuryuu had killed his mom, for all Alibaba knew he could have been totally fine with that out of the way, and he did think that he would be easy to get through to due to him actually interacting with him more than Kouen, and honestly look he would have still tried to get through to him, even after knowing all this, just sitting back and waiting for a battle is not something that Alibaba would have been able to sit comfortable and do, I am at least glad he did something instead of sitting on his ass.Quote:
He would still try reason with Hakuryuuu, maybe even beg and cry, finally I think Hakuryuu would just take this as an opportunity to attack him and shut him up, but he would have to be retarded to not try to take him out as you have said.Quote:
It is not a vaild execuse at all, but his whole action was reckless, lacked proper information and had very high chance of failure, even he was aware of this, but he still needed to see that things could be settled, can't fault(entirely) a guy for trying to rectify a situation before things really got serious and everyone ended up doing things that they will regret in later on.Quote:
Considering you spent most of the time talking about alibaba and about 1/3 talking about hakuryuu the titles misleading. Also I cant help but feel this post may be a few day's premature (especially the hakuryuu has no reason to fight kouen point), if in the next few chapters Kouen plans to explain the "right or wrong doesn't matter here, there is a reason I must confront hakuryuu" (though that's a sketchy translation)
But I certainly agree that hakuryuu's walking the crazy train these day, and this fight is all his fault, there were million otherways he could have handled it without a fight but he's quite set on fighting and he wanted to fight alibaba for manga rival reasons.
(I couldn't have put it better then it was actually stated in the manga here)
Last edited by shadowii; April 12, 2015 at 12:54 PM.
Liking Hakuryuu or not, I did play the objectivity game. You forgot King Aegon 1. And this reeks of being a troll attempt so you shouldn't be surprised if I hadn't responded. I guess I had nothing better to do for those ~15 mins.Originally Posted by Hll
Oh there were quite some posts, but he only made threads for Aladdin and Hakuryuu.Originally Posted by Hll
Kouen said that Hakuryuu was filled with hatred and that's one of the reasons he doesn't want Hakuryuu to rule. Killing the empress is only the result of this hatred and changes nothing for Kouen and even Alibaba wouldn't think otherwise.Originally Posted by Hll
I agree that sitting back and waiting for a war would be bad too, but this is a lose-lose scenario for Alibaba. Whatever he did he'd get screwed, his life or his kingdom would be done for, just that he didn't expect the "his life" part in the other choice. So you're right, it's better than being completely idle as I think Alibaba would prefer his kingdom over his life any day.
But you're forgetting what the point of Eastgrove's thread was. To show us that Hakuryuu is evil and insane and that Alibaba was right. He didn't accomplish either of the two, you have to agree.
Huh, had he cried and begged maybe Hakuryuu would have shown some mercy and thought of it some more? Either way, he had to remove Alibaba in some way before the war, he could have requested of Alibaba to stay out of the war and he would promise to fight outside of Balbadd and not damage it. But it's still not safe, as Alibaba could have decided to turn on him and still join the war. Removing him by force was the best action as far as I see it.Originally Posted by Hll
I agree with you, but again, this conclusion we reached isn't "Alibaba was right, Hakuryuu is evil and insane" so Eastgrove simply failed.Originally Posted by Hll
This. I guess it's easier to give + to Alibaba than give - to Hakuryuu?Originally Posted by shadowii
But he was talking about the Judar/Aladdin relation. Or do you think Hakuryuu also saw Alibaba the way Judar saw Aladdin? While interesting, it still makes more sense for Judar as he and Aladdin are closer in comparison.Originally Posted by shadowii
The situation was stable until Hakuryuu actually murdered his mother, something that Alibaba couldn't even believe he was capable of. Obviously Alibaba doesn't know Hakuryuu as well as he thinks he does, even before he fell into depravity, but that's mostly the fault of the writer for making everyone fast friends. Regardless, based on what he knew, Alibaba did not make a mistake in choosing to confront Hakuryuu.Quote:
Even supposing he can maintain the djinn equip for an entire hour and fly faster than the speed of sound, it'd take him days to travel to the other side of the planet, since they have to take rest stops to regain maqoi. A week seems about right.Quote:
Obviously I was speaking hypothetically.Quote:
Alibaba did walk into situation blind, but he's not at fault for doing so. He had to do it, because the alternative was most likely going to result in a war. Keep in mind that at this point he really doesn't know just how hell bent Hakuryuu is on fighting a war that will destroy his and Alibaba's countries. Just what are you supposed to say to someone that tells you flat out to your face he's going to destroy everything you love? For most people the conversation would end there.Quote:
No, what depravity means is you stop talking and START PUNCHING.Quote:
Alibaba probably would have retreated, because he'd be in the lion's den at that point. Of course, just because someone says they're going to wage a war to destroy your country doesn't mean that that will actually happen. Bluster and bravado are as much a part of war and politics as anything. As long as Hakuryuu let him walk away, that would have meant there was hope for a better outcome.Quote:
Alibaba would have listened to anything Hakuryuu had to say, but aside from some small talk Hakuryuu basically only offered threats and his ill-intent. Can you honestly say that Hakuryuu at any point tried to reason with Alibaba? That the war was something that had to be done? That Kouen was really someone he couldn't reconcile his differences with peacefully? Hakuryuu never tried to convince Alibaba to his side. He cut the chit-chat, demanded that Alibaba agree with him, and preceded right into brain washing. That's not reasoned discourse. That's tyrannical and insane.Quote:
And yet there's not a single instance of anyone in Kou taking an order from anyone from Al-Thamen. Not a single one. Clear as day my ass.Quote:
And of course, just because you're the king doesn't mean people will do as you say. Gyokuen trying to force Kouen into doing something he didn't want to do would have only resulted in blood shed. That much is obvious from their behavior at the funeral.
What Alibaba did was bold, not reckless. And accidents do happen and people are found to not be at fault for them. It's just a sad fact of life that no matter how many precautions are taken that at some point it becomes self-defeating and pointless because absolutely everything can not be taken into account. Honestly, he had two choices; wait for Kouen to decide what to do with Hakuryuu and follow him or confront Hakuryuu himself and see if something better could come of it. And keep in mind, that it wasn't a hopeless situation when he went into it. Again, bravado and bluster. People can say whatever they want and they can change their minds. Just need to put forward the effort to see if they will.Quote:
Hakuryuu wants to destroy his country and kill his family for no reason other than he wants to. This is evil and insane. How people don't think it isn't boggles my mind.
As far as the insane part is concerned, calling him psychopathic is more accurate, since he seems to be in complete control of his actions so far and are not completely devoid of sense at all at this moment.