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Thread: Kouen Ren Thread

  1. #1
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member MArGi's Avatar
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    Kouen Ren Thread

    Hi guys!

    So here is a thread dedicated to Kouen. I know there have already been lots of discussions and debates about him in many other threads but seeing how controversial the man is, I am quite surprised he hasn’t had his own dedicated thread so far. So feel free to say anything you want.

    My point is trying to show that Kouen is not the bad guy of the manga as many people think he is. And I especially want to clear out some crimes he is accused of, which were never ever stated in the manga (and it never fails to annoy me when someone brings it up !). So please, when you are stating something, show us the pages, the examples which you extract your information from.

    Watch out, this is going to be looooong and goooood (and I probably forgot some points).
    EDIT : Ok this turns out to be awfully long, I am very sorry (I am sure I have never ever had as much inspiration for any of my uni’s works)

    Basically what do we know for sure about his past? He admired Hakutoku and Hakuyuu, and said himself that he wanted to fight by their side. He was born in a military nation, which was built over the unification of three countries at war.
    So now speculation time. As he loved and respected the Haku family, I understand why he would try to perpetuate their wishes, which was to unify the world. When you’ve experienced one method that has been working, why not use it again ? That is what Kouen did : invading other countries to unify them later.

    Back to the facts, what we know is that Hakutoku was exploiting the two other countries’ weakness, which was basically the fight there was between one another. Now, what do we know about Kouen’s methods:
    - Balbadd : exploiting the already existent economic weakness by introducing their own Kou money.
    - Kouga tribe : diplomatic discussions, no war (and pleaaaaase, Ryosai was a dissident whom methods were not approved by Hakuei and who even rebelled against her in the end. He is clearly not representative of what was supposed to be done and discussed with the Kouga Tribe in the first place)
    Then the Kou empire invades the conquered countries and imposes its own culture.

    Let’s stop here for the next few lines. I know this is a cultural genocide. I don’t approve that. HOWEVER, it is no genocide of an entire people. The only people who were killed were soldiers, because yes soldiers die in war. But as far as we know, no population has been especially targeted; they haven’t killed women or children. They usually want to improve the life of the conquered populations : wasn’t that true with the Kouga Clan (more security, no enslavement) ? With Balbadd (no more starvation, accommodation for everyone, work too even though it is imposed) ?

    Now, so far, I have said that Kouen brings war to other countries and he imposes the Kou culture. He even develops slavery by exporting the system.
    BUT, he and Koumei are looking at the future when they are doing all of this. They KNOW that what they are doing is seen as wrong at the moment, however they are aiming for a brighter future. Does it mean that it excuses everything they are doing ? No, certainly not. However the generation living right now will cry of having their culture destroyed and taken from them, their children will cry too, but their grandchildren will have forgotten about the past already. Zassan for example was born within the Kou Empire, he won’t understand why Hassan doesn’t like the current system. Little by little everything fades away.
    I think their way of doing and thinking is very veryyyyy interesting and was never explored before, that is why I am quite curious about their method. If the same thing were to happen in our world, I would be the first one to say it is wrong, but still I understand the logic of it and it is very clever… But men won’t swallow up their pride for the happiness of an entire world, so someone has to force it on them.
    Oh and even if you think that what Kouen is doing is not good, it is still great : unifying half of a world asks for charisma, strength and intelligence. He kept that going for about 10 years, and we haven’t known of any big rebellion so far (except Hakuryuu) so it seems that most of the populations were ok with their fate. Also, why would Al Thamen need to go to Magnostadt or Balbadd to create black rukh if the people within the Kou Empire were so unhappy with the current government or their way of living ?

    Talking about Al Thamen, it constitutes a powerful organization, why wouldn’t he use them? He did not know what they were up to before the summit so there was nothing to reproach him before. Now he still decided to use them even when he knew what they were aiming for. I think that part is showing us one of his flaws : he is over confident in his abilities. He probably thinks he can deal with them when the time comes.
    There is also the fact that Al Thamen had too much importance within the Kou Empire to kick their ass out now. And I think you cannot kill the Empress that easily (except if your name is Hakuryuu and that you can brainwash most of your followers) even if Kouen obviously doesn’t like Gyokuen.

    Concerning Hakuryuu, I already said it all. What I think is that by "I looked down quite a lot on him because of Gyokuen" he refers to the fact that Hakuryuu tried to kill her, his own mother, therefore Kouen discovered his hatred towards her only then and stopped supporting him. There is no real evidence that he did not like Hakuryuu before (he may have even supported him into being the next Emperor), nor there is any evidence that Kouen knew that Gyokuen killed her late husband and sons (he may be suspicious of her but still, how do you expect a mother to kill the people that should be the most dear to her, I think we tend to forget that because we, as readers, + Hakuryuu were the only one who knew who she really was before the summit). If Kouen did not turn Haku into a general, it is probably because he didn't have a Metal Vessel yet. And he may say that "he should have killed him" but he did not. Why? Probably because he still had some hopes to save Hakuryuu, that is why he put Phenex's curse on him 6 months ago: let's face it at that time, Hakuryuu had no chance to kill Gyokuen, we all know that. So it was better to prevent Haku to go into a suicide campaign against her by putting the Phenex's curse.

    Coming to what I like the most about him : his personality and his interaction with the other characters. He is serious, usually calm, sometimes blunt, he is straightforward (oh yeees, his best characteristic), and he cares about his brothers and family. I think it is one of the only thing we can be sure of when it comes to his links to the other characters. Here are some of his best moments IMO when he showed us who he really is : Sinbad, Alibaba, Koumei, Kouha (This is the feeling Othaka wanted us to have : we were all expecting him to be quite unhappy there, weren’t we? But he healed Kouha. That is one of the most representative moment of who he is).

    Now Kouen certainly has many bad sides. He is very very selfish I think, ready to do anything to achieve his goals and that is quite scary because we don’t know what his limits are.

    The end (now I wish you the best of luck to read all of my essay, if you are brave enough). I feel so light and free now, all of this had to come out again, but at once this time.
    Last edited by MArGi; February 24, 2015 at 03:01 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Awesome intro, just can't wait to start arguing with Grysun over who is better , but I have got to ask do you know that Hakutoku actually manipulated the econmies of the other two countries, I always pictured him as a war monger with a purpose to prevent the destruction by any meas as fast as possible. And mainpulating things like that is certainly not fast.

    One thing has been bothering me with regards to Kouen though why the hell did he offer Alibaba enough power to eventually brake away from him, granted right now that turned out to be a stellar decision, I mean when i first thought of his offer the first thing that came to my mind was they wanted him as a pawn, but on further reflection even though he is technically working under them it does not seem like he and Koumei would want to keep him on as much a tight leash as I first thought, but looking at his interactions, especially the one between him and Kouen on the boat, he actually seemed to genuinely not mind giving him Balbaad back eventually and also the fact that they are successful in ensuring that people observe the social order, keeping him as a puppet ruler is also unlikely.

    And even the marriage proposal how is that even supposed to be 'showing his royalty with all of himself.', that little condition puts him above nearly every nobleman who is working under them.

    When I actually try thinking about it the only answer that comes to mind is that he later on wants to borrow his strength as not only a general( which he would've accepted even without the marriage proposal.), but also use him as an advisor in order to ensure the smooth functining of his empire, though there is the fact that they don't see eye to eye with regards to their ideoloagy.

    Anyways what do you think, what were his real motivations behind making Alibaba a genral and giving him a significant amount of power and influence in the Kou ?

    Edit: Really sorry if this sounds like a stupid question it is just something that has been on my mind and it would be great to get another perspective.
    Last edited by Hll; February 24, 2015 at 03:24 PM.

  3. #3
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GrySun's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quite a nice read I must admit. First time a Kouen fan actually explained in depth why they like and support their character.

    I will respond to many things now. Consider: as we don't know much about Kouen many things can be assumptions, speculations or disbelief in Kouen's words.

    Quote Quote:
    As he loved and respected the Haku family, I understand why he would try to perpetuate their wishes, which was to unify the world. When you’ve experienced one method that has been working, why not use it again ? That is what Kouen did.
    Okay I won't argue that Kouen respected the last king and his brothers. That could be a lie or not, doesn't really matter though. But as far as I know, Hakutoku and his sons never actually attacked a country and proclaimed war to them. They never wanted to take by force. All they did was end a huge war and unify the countries which took part in that war. Who says Kouen hasn't misinterpreted what they really wanted? Maybe Hakutoku also believed that it's the same everywhere in the world and because of that would stop the wars himself by ruling over everything. But he would never attack a defenseless country or even force them into his country.

    That's why I don't buy this "taking their wishes as his own" bussiness. I don't think Hakutoku and his sons died a year after Kou was founded. This means the Kou empire, which was created by unifying those 3 countries, DID NOT go to war or INCREASE their borders at all since creation till Hakutoku's death. How many years were they idle then? I know there wasn't much information about this and I could be wrong, but you must consider these things as well.
    It would also make sense why Al-Thamen would want them dead. They were idle too long, didn't want to go into any further wars, which is why they didn't want their help and their power- they didn't need them.

    But lets assume he really is continuing their wishes. They wanted to conquer all and so does Kouen now. But the Kou empire never went to war before the emperor swap. So what methods do you mean him using which worked in the past? He unified countries which were weakened by war and were on the verge of the end. How can this compare to sending your forces to Magnostadt, for example.

    Quote Quote:
    - Balbadd : exploiting the already existent economic weakness by introducing their own Kou money.
    - Kouga tribe : diplomatic discussions, no war (and pleaaaaase, Ryosai was a dissident whom methods were not approved by Hakuei and who even rebelled against her in the end. He is clearly not representative of what was supposed to be done and discussed with the Kouga Tribe in the first place)
    It's good that you only use what happened in the manga, but bad that you ignore what was stated. Surely the Kou empire now is bigger than the countries they started with + Balbadd + the small Kouga tribe, right? And I doubt that every country they conquered had already a bad king like in Balbadd.
    The Kouga tribe was Hakuei's responsibility. You also think Kouen and Kouha did the same? You can see what Kouha did by looking at his discussion with Mogamett. Kouen probably did similar. They offer you either subjugation or destruction. Quite nice diplomatic discussions, eh? Most won't just let them walk in and take over so naturally they would go to war.
    While not known, I believe the countries they "expanded upon" were simply the ones closest to their borders. They didn't chose which country to take. They took all(naturally, as Kouen wants to unite everything). No matter if the country is falling apart like Balbadd, if everyone is happy with their life no matter if good or bad(the Kouga tribe liked their nomadic life. Kou citizen would call it pathetic, but they wouldn't).

    I really wish Kouen was also in Belial. Belial would ask him if he's really doing what Hakutoku would want. I wonder if he would be damaged like Hakuryuu after his "yes" or not.

    Quote Quote:
    Let’s stop here for the next few lines. I know this is a cultural genocide. I don’t approve that. HOWEVER, it is no genocide of an entire people. The only people who were killed were soldiers, because yes soldiers die in war. But as far as we know, no population has been especially targeted; they haven’t killed women or children.
    I don't really care about the cultural genocide, but rather about the actual killing that is being done. So what if women and children didn't die? They husbandos and fathers certainly did. If the country is more militaristic, they will do the same as Parthevia in SnB: they will force men into the war. Hell, they will force children into it. You saw them forcing Sinbad to go to war too. And that happens only because suddenly the Kou empire is invading them and they want to defend their current lifestyle.

    Quote Quote:
    They KNOW that what they are doing is seen as wrong at the moment, however they are aiming for a brighter future.
    While true that the children won't remember and it will slowly become normal life, but do you really think it will come to that? You say they look at the future, but they certainly don't expect any revolts before so much time passes. The people of Balbadd may have gotten food and their lives improved, but they certainly didn't look happy, at least not many. That is probably true for most countries they conquered. But because of all the military supression they can't do anything about it. If Kouen got weakened in the war against Hakuryuu, do you really think other countries won't take this perfect chance to become their own country again? It was seen endless times in our own world's history that this happens.

    Quote Quote:
    But men won’t swallow up their pride for the happiness of an entire world, so someone has to force it on them.
    The world won't be happy. Only Kouen and his close followers will be. Balbadd many people were hungering, but imagine a country where people have a normal fun life with enough food and high enough standards. Their lives change, not for better or worse, but they simply are different now. Have they become happy now, if they were happy before that as well? Some people will improve their life, some will experience a huge decline while others will continue normally with life. In the end, nothing changed. The same ammount of people are happy and the same ammount are sad. The only people calling it worthwhile will be the ones whose life improved.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, why would Al Thamen need to go to Magnostadt or Balbadd to create black rukh if the people within the Kou Empire were so unhappy with the current government or their way of living ?
    To speed things up. Magnostadt was influenced far before the Kou empire got in a war with them. Balbadd was extremely weakened through the internal battle, making them easy pray for the Kou empire, although they were already weak enough. Al-Thamen sees a chance to spread black rukh and they take it, it doesn't matter Kouen is spreading black rukh with his wars, they will want more. For example, Falan found Barbarossa in Parthevia, a man who would turn the country into the state it is at right now if he had the means. And she gave the means. They also helped Mogamett a lot with his country and overthrowing the previous king.

    Quote Quote:
    He did not know what they were up to before the summit
    How do you know that? Seriously, is it that hard to guess that they help the Kou empire because of their own gains from it. The only gains they can have is the war and the death of many as for a long time they didn't want anything in return or high positions. The two old generals, who were made largely unimportant(not even invited to the summit), even they knew what happened to the Haku family. Someone like Kouen who was much closer to Al-Thamen had to have known too.

    I would have written much more about everything, but unfortunately I have not much time right now. But I gave you enough to respond to in the meantime.
    "Spirit of truth and conviction, I command thee and thy household: envelope me, dwell in my body, turn me into a great demon.....Belial!"
    -Edge lord Hakuryuu 2015

  4. #4
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member MArGi's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Hll :
    There are no stupid questions, don't worry
    Regarding Alibaba, I really thought that Kouen and Koumei would have had a much stronger grip on him too, but considering what is happening right now, it doesn't seem to be the case as you say.
    Offering Balbadd to Alibaba was the best way to make sure that he would join the Kou Empire, and so that Kouen would gain another Metal Vessel user as well as depraving Sindria from a big source of power. The mariage proposal is just to ensure that Alibaba won't turn back at some point if things turn out badly. But as you say, just as Kouen was seeking power, he was seeking advice too in what what is the best way to rule over Balbadd IMO. That is what I understood from this. It is also a good way to satisfy the people of Balbadd : having Alibaba rule over them, even if under the Kou Empire, is a much smoother transition than having someone else who doesn't understand them.
    I think it is not the first time the Kou brothers are doing that kind of thing actually, but that is just complete speculation based on nothing else than my mind ^^

    ---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by GrySun View Post
    Okay I won't argue that Kouen respected the last king and his brothers. That could be a lie or not, doesn't really matter though. But as far as I know, Hakutoku and his sons never actually attacked a country and proclaimed war to them. They never wanted to take by force. All they did was end a huge war and unify the countries which took part in that war. Who says Kouen hasn't misinterpreted what they really wanted? Maybe Hakutoku also believed that it's the same everywhere in the world and because of that would stop the wars himself by ruling over everything. But he would never attack a defenseless country or even force them into his country.
    No they did attack and proclaimed war(s), read that part again.
    Now I do agree that Kouen may have misinterpreted what his uncle and cousins wanted from the start, I admit I have thought about it several times.

    Quote Quote:
    That's why I don't buy this "taking their wishes as his own" bussiness. I don't think Hakutoku and his sons died a year after Kou was founded. This means the Kou empire, which was created by unifying those 3 countries, DID NOT go to war or INCREASE their borders at all since creation till Hakutoku's death. How many years were they idle then? I know there wasn't much information about this and I could be wrong, but you must consider these things as well.
    It would also make sense why Al-Thamen would want them dead. They were idle too long, didn't want to go into any further wars, which is why they didn't want their help and their power- they didn't need them.
    Other than a misinterpretation I think that Kouen is basing himself on the example he got from Hakutoku. The man unified three countries. But then he died, and Kouen got his first Djinn Agares at the exact moment when the two eldest sons died. A Djinn is also known as the power of the Kings. Maybe Kouen understood that it was no coincidence. And that by getting this power, he thought he got the possibility to extend what his uncle had started. He also found the Toran writings talking about an ideal world with a sole King. That makes too many hints in a few years for one man, don’t you think?
    As for Al Thamen, you are probably right, I think they killed the late royalty because they created too many good things, it was kind of bad for the Black Rukh business.

    Quote Quote:
    But lets assume he really is continuing their wishes. They wanted to conquer all and so does Kouen now. But the Kou empire never went to war before the emperor swap. So what methods do you mean him using which worked in the past? He unified countries which were weakened by war and were on the verge of the end. How can this compare to sending your forces to Magnostadt, for example.
    By methods, I mean unifying countries fighting one another because they couldn’t come to an agreement on obscure points, under one ruler. Kouen wants to do the same but to the entire world. Weak countries (Kouga, Balbadd) being the subjects of internal and external conflicts and aggressive countries (Magnostadt) fall into the category of countries that are being in trouble or being belligerent because there exists a difference of POV within the said country or with the neighboring countries.

    Quote Quote:
    It's good that you only use what happened in the manga, but bad that you ignore what was stated. Surely the Kou empire now is bigger than the countries they started with + Balbadd + the small Kouga tribe, right? And I doubt that every country they conquered had already a bad king like in Balbadd.
    The Kouga tribe was Hakuei's responsibility. You also think Kouen and Kouha did the same? You can see what Kouha did by looking at his discussion with Mogamett. Kouen probably did similar. They offer you either subjugation or destruction. Quite nice diplomatic discussions, eh? Most won't just let them walk in and take over so naturally they would go to war.
    While not known, I believe the countries they "expanded upon" were simply the ones closest to their borders. They didn't chose which country to take. They took all(naturally, as Kouen wants to unite everything). No matter if the country is falling apart like Balbadd, if everyone is happy with their life no matter if good or bad(the Kouga tribe liked their nomadic life. Kou citizen would call it pathetic, but they wouldn't).
    Hey, I am not saying there have been no wars at all. I know there were. But what I was trying to point out is that the Kou Empire doesn’t only rely on pure military strength. They use other methods that are not always bloody, and I think it is good to remember that from times to times.

    Quote Quote:
    I really wish Kouen was also in Belial. Belial would ask him if he's really doing what Hakutoku would want. I wonder if he would be damaged like Hakuryuu after his "yes" or not.
    You don’t how much I would want to see him find himself into such a situation and lose a bit of confidence.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't really care about the cultural genocide, but rather about the actual killing that is being done. So what if women and children didn't die? They husbandos and fathers certainly did. If the country is more militaristic, they will do the same as Parthevia in SnB: they will force men into the war. Hell, they will force children into it. You saw them forcing Sinbad to go to war too. And that happens only because suddenly the Kou empire is invading them and they want to defend their current lifestyle.
    Not saying that this is a good thing too, but using the word genocide never fails to make me go into berserker mode ! The death of the soldiers are war casualties, not genocide.
    And in the end, what you are pointing out connect to what I was explaining : that all will be forgotten. The population will live through some hardships, then they will be conquered by the Kou Empire and will be offered a better life by the same country who caused their sufferings and conquered them. But still they will accept it because there life will improve. And their children and the children of their children won’t care about the past because they are living a good life now, thanks to the Kou Empire. You see what I mean?

    Quote Quote:
    While true that the children won't remember and it will slowly become normal life, but do you really think it will come to that? You say they look at the future, but they certainly don't expect any revolts before so much time passes. The people of Balbadd may have gotten food and their lives improved, but they certainly didn't look happy, at least not many. That is probably true for most countries they conquered. But because of all the military supression they can't do anything about it. If Kouen got weakened in the war against Hakuryuu, do you really think other countries won't take this perfect chance to become their own country again? It was seen endless times in our own world's history that this happens.
    They don’t expect revolts because they are basically offering a good life to the conquered countries. There is no oppression in the sense where they don’t kill people randomly, they don’t rape the women, they don’t abduct the children you know… There is no evident oppression. But then if a little rebellion arises, their military strength is more than enough to destroy it. And as long as the people live a life freed from the worries such as accommodation and food and insecurity, it becomes much more obedient to the government who offered them such a thing. 80% of the country is backing up Kouen right now, there is no secret as to why he has gained such a support. Also read Koumei’s speech again.

    Quote Quote:
    The world won't be happy. Only Kouen and his close followers will be. Balbadd many people were hungering, but imagine a country where people have a normal fun life with enough food and high enough standards. Their lives change, not for better or worse, but they simply are different now. Have they become happy now, if they were happy before that as well? Some people will improve their life, some will experience a huge decline while others will continue normally with life. In the end, nothing changed. The same ammount of people are happy and the same ammount are sad. The only people calling it worthwhile will be the ones whose life improved.
    If EVERYONE is united under ONE system and thinks it is THE good system, then there won’t be any reason to question it. Here I am talking for the second or third generation born into a world unified under the Kou Empire. That is the aim of Kouen and Koumei : that everyone lives happily with what he has without questioning anything, while ensuring a certain quality of living for everybody : no more wars (Because everyone thinks the same way), no more slavery, food and accommodation for everyone… Try to see things in a longer term, and you will understand their ideals better.

    Quote Quote:
    To speed things up. Magnostadt was influenced far before the Kou empire got in a war with them. Balbadd was extremely weakened through the internal battle, making them easy pray for the Kou empire, although they were already weak enough. Al-Thamen sees a chance to spread black rukh and they take it, it doesn't matter Kouen is spreading black rukh with his wars, they will want more. For example, Falan found Barbarossa in Parthevia, a man who would turn the country into the state it is at right now if he had the means. And she gave the means. They also helped Mogamett a lot with his country and overthrowing the previous king.
    Yep true, but that surely means they don’t have enough Black Rukh within the Kou Empire to do things at the rate they want, doesn’t it?

    Quote Quote:
    How do you know that? Seriously, is it that hard to guess that they help the Kou empire because of their own gains from it. The only gains they can have is the war and the death of many as for a long time they didn't want anything in return or high positions. The two old generals, who were made largely unimportant(not even invited to the summit), even they knew what happened to the Haku family. Someone like Kouen who was much closer to Al-Thamen had to have known too.
    Everyone is doing things for their own benefits. Kouen and everyone in the Kou Empire knew that the organization was helping them for its own gains. But still Kouen did not even know its name was Al Thamen until recently, how could he have possibly imagine that the guys want to DESTROY the world? I mean this is not the kind of benefit you usually want to get right ?
    And considering the fact that Kouen could have known they were the murderers of the first Emperor, the two last emperors were Koutoku, manipulated by Gyokuen, and Gyokuen herself. How could he have convinced her to get rid of Al Thamen ? ^^
    Last edited by MArGi; February 24, 2015 at 05:38 PM.

  5. #5
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GrySun View Post
    Okay I won't argue that Kouen respected the last king and his brothers. That could be a lie or not, doesn't really matter though. But as far as I know, Hakutoku and his sons never actually attacked a country and proclaimed war to them. They never wanted to take by force. All they did was end a huge war and unify the countries which took part in that war. Who says Kouen hasn't misinterpreted what they really wanted? Maybe Hakutoku also believed that it's the same everywhere in the world and because of that would stop the wars himself by ruling over everything. But he would never attack a defenseless country or even force them into his country.

    That's why I don't buy this "taking their wishes as his own" bussiness. I don't think Hakutoku and his sons died a year after Kou was founded. This means the Kou empire, which was created by unifying those 3 countries, DID NOT go to war or INCREASE their borders at all since creation till Hakutoku's death. How many years were they idle then? I know there wasn't much information about this and I could be wrong, but you must consider these things as well.
    It would also make sense why Al-Thamen would want them dead. They were idle too long, didn't want to go into any further wars, which is why they didn't want their help and their power- they didn't need them.

    But lets assume he really is continuing their wishes. They wanted to conquer all and so does Kouen now. But the Kou empire never went to war before the emperor swap. So what methods do you mean him using which worked in the past? He unified countries which were weakened by war and were on the verge of the end. How can this compare to sending your forces to Magnostadt, for example.
    Most of that is just your fanfiction. Seriously? "It could be a lie" based on what? Nothing in the manga that's for sure. And how exactly is Hakutoku supposed to unify three countries without attacking them? You know, the same Hakutoku that his own daughter called "severe" in his methods? She considers Kouen merciful and compassionate by comparison (although she is not alone in this assessment).

    How exactly is a guy supposed to unify the warring factions in other countries without...invading those countries? Take aside people that had hated and exploited each other for a hundreds of years and serve them snacks?

    Quote Quote:
    It's good that you only use what happened in the manga, but bad that you ignore what was stated. Surely the Kou empire now is bigger than the countries they started with + Balbadd + the small Kouga tribe, right? And I doubt that every country they conquered had already a bad king like in Balbadd.
    The Kouga tribe was Hakuei's responsibility. You also think Kouen and Kouha did the same? You can see what Kouha did by looking at his discussion with Mogamett. Kouen probably did similar. They offer you either subjugation or destruction. Quite nice diplomatic discussions, eh? Most won't just let them walk in and take over so naturally they would go to war.
    While not known, I believe the countries they "expanded upon" were simply the ones closest to their borders. They didn't chose which country to take. They took all(naturally, as Kouen wants to unite everything). No matter if the country is falling apart like Balbadd, if everyone is happy with their life no matter if good or bad(the Kouga tribe liked their nomadic life. Kou citizen would call it pathetic, but they wouldn't).
    Kouen and Koumei are aware of the contradiction of using war to end war. Suffice to say, there's likely a preference for how Kou subjugates a country or people, but their methods are actually wide and varied.

    Quote Quote:
    I really wish Kouen was also in Belial. Belial would ask him if he's really doing what Hakutoku would want. I wonder if he would be damaged like Hakuryuu after his "yes" or not.
    Hakuryuu believes that Kouen's path is the path of his brothers. That's why he was injured.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't really care about the cultural genocide, but rather about the actual killing that is being done. So what if women and children didn't die? They husbandos and fathers certainly did. If the country is more militaristic, they will do the same as Parthevia in SnB: they will force men into the war. Hell, they will force children into it. You saw them forcing Sinbad to go to war too. And that happens only because suddenly the Kou empire is invading them and they want to defend their current lifestyle.
    Honestly, by every indication Kou improves the livelihood of those they conquer. Parthevia launched military conquests to score pillage and resources. Kou's interest is and has always been the people of the territories they've conquered.

    Basically what it boils down to is do you think differences bring people together or drive them apart? Do you think wars can be fought to end wars? What's the best way to make a country that lasts? That's Magi in a nutshell and Kou is the country that's taken to the conformist/right of kings route. You might not like it, you might not even really believe it, but at least in the series itself, Kou gets results and as much as they are set on their path, they are open minded about what approach to take.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GrySun's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quote Quote:
    No they did attack and proclaimed war(s), read that part again.
    I read it again and I don't see where it says that they attacked defeneless people or made more wars after the unification. The text only states that they unified the east, where the wars were happening all the time. As far as I see it doesn't say "they fought many wars after that". So I am puzzled how they wanted to unite the enitre world if they didn't do anything after uniting their own continent/land.

    Quote Quote:
    But then he died, and Kouen got his first Djinn Agares at the exact moment when the two eldest sons died.
    I'm afraid you're wrong there. http://www.mangachapter.me/4983/magi/245-8.html "Kouen was coming back after conquering his 2nd dungeon Phenex when the fire happened" If he was coming back, maybe even alone if he didn't go with soldiers, he doesn't exactly have an aliby and could have caused the fire, but its just conjuncture talking about Kouen being involved there or not, so lets not. But the thing is, Kouen had 2 djinns when the Haku family died. I wonder why he was even sent there in the first place. Maybe Hakutoku, Hakuren and Hakuyuu refused because they didn't want it, didn't need it etc.
    Still your point makes sense, maybe he did misinterpret. Maybe we will find out during the civil war(somehow).

    Quote Quote:
    Hey, I am not saying there have been no wars at all. I know there were. But what I was trying to point out is that the Kou Empire doesn’t only rely on pure military strength. They use other methods that are not always bloody, and I think it is good to remember that from times to times.
    Yep they don't rely on pure military strenght. Using djinn equip and extreme magic doesn't count in "military strenght" does it? And if you mean "they don't attack without discussing with the enemy leader", you're right. But if all the discussion is offering them subjugation or destruction through war, then that diplomatic discussion is quite terrible and not praiseworthy. I wonder how many countries actually chose the subjugation? How many didn't let Kouen retreat after he claimed that, wanting to kill him there, and how often he used djinn equip to cause destruction there until they gave up.
    And all the other methods known are what happened to Balbadd and considering how many people starved to death I wouldn't call it a clean resolution.

    Quote Quote:
    You don’t how much I would want to see him find himself into such a situation and lose a bit of confidence.
    Who knows, maybe Hakuryuu can use Belial in such a way, the djinn definitely could do that but its hard to say if it will happen.

    Quote Quote:
    Not saying that this is a good thing too, but using the word genocide never fails to make me go into berserker mode ! The death of the soldiers are war casualties, not genocide.
    You probably misundersood. I didn't say he way causing genocide. All I said was I don't care about the cultural damage but the actual damage happening.
    And yes, it is theoretically possible for it to be forgotten. But that is assuming he can conquer the entire world. I am not sure from where Kouen is taking his confidence but damn does he have a lot of it. We as readers know he wouldn't have succeeded, at least not during his lifetime even if Sinbad wasn't there. And once Kouen,Kouha and Koumei die(age or whatnot) the potential followers could easily argue who to take the spot of emperor and divide everything again.
    For example, Gyokuen dies and choses Hakuryuu as emperor in her will. Hakuryuu orders to stop all ongoing wars. What would Kouen do? He would be the first to start a civil war in this case.
    Other example, Gyokuen dies and has no will, so who to take the place as emperor? This actually is whats happening right now. Hakuryuu just appointed himself as the emperor but it doesn't hold much importance to most of the army or Kouen. Result is civil war again.
    Kouen should have become emperor to avoid most of this. But Gyokuen screwed him over, and I still don't know why she did that. She didn't even issue any special orders. Something tells me she became emperor just to make it possible for Hakuryuu to bring the empire into this state it is right now.

    Quote Quote:
    If EVERYONE is united under ONE system and thinks it is THE good system, then there won’t be any reason to question it.
    This is when you can call it an "ideal" and not "truth". Its what Kouen believes, but I think thats impossible. Its impossible for everyone to find one thing good. Even in complete peace there are many who hate that peace. The root is faaaaar deeper and more psychological. It's a rather long story but I can tell you if you aren't too inclined towards psychology and philosophy. But to tell it short, it's not about everyone having enough food, water and a nice house. And thats all Kouen's system is guaranteeing. Or do you think most wars happen because people don't have enough to live with?

    Quote Quote:
    Yep true, but that surely means they don’t have enough Black Rukh within the Kou Empire to do things at the rate they want, doesn’t it?
    Yeah, I have absolutely no idea how much black rukh Al-Thamen needs. If all they need is a medium, why even spread war? If all you need is what Mogametts case had: 1 magician in depravity and a certain amount of humans in a magical furnace, then they could simply find a magician who's in depravity or make him fall, while at the same time imprisoning many people in such a furnace. Sooner or later all the people will be in depravity or produce enough black rukh.

    Quote Quote:
    And considering the fact that Kouen could have known they were the murderers of the first Emperor, the two last emperors were Koutoku, manipulated by Gyokuen, and Gyokuen herself. How could he have convinced her to get rid of Al Thamen ? ^^
    I see, but if you play that card that means Kouen knew that they were responsible and his excuse is the inability to do anything against it....with 3 metal vessels. And the subject of Hakuryuu is as convoluted as it gets. I really wish Kouen's chapter 251 speech was longer or if it wasn't cut by Alibaba and Aladdin...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastgrove
    And how exactly is Hakutoku supposed to unify three countries without attacking them?
    I didn't say that. I said he didn't have any other wars with any other countries after the unification. At least it was never said. And its called a theory, not a fanfic.

    Quote Quote:
    She considers Kouen merciful and compassionate by comparison
    She's in love with him, anyone can see that. I expect her to call him her onii-chan/senpai any time now.

    Quote Quote:
    but their methods are actually wide and varied.
    "Hi, you want subjugation or destruction? Let me know 'kay?" Is quite wide and varied, I agree.

    Quote Quote:
    Hakuryuu believes that Kouen's path is the path of his brothers. That's why he was injured.
    I didn't read that anywhere, and he got injured because he said his path was the same as what his brothers wanted. Considering he is issuing out revenge as Hakuren told him, I don't understand why he got damaged. Maybe Hakuren wanted him to take revenge peacefully? Eh...

    Quote Quote:
    Honestly, by every indication Kou improves the livelihood of those they conquer.
    Take Magnostadt for example. People lived there very nicely, better than in the Kou empire imo(but I'm just a sucker of magical tools in a town making everything shiny, so it's just my opinion). Still, they had no problems at all, and Kouen couldn't know about the magic furnace. Not to mention the people there aren't even the majority of the population, I think?

    And Kouha called the value of Magnostadt: an important base for future wars. So they mostly cared for a base of operations, not any well being of the people. That's just a secondary objective aka. nice if you can, meh whatever if you can't fulfill it.

    Quote Quote:
    ...Kou gets results...
    It's hard to get results when you have metal vessels which can destroy everything and defeat all normal soldiers. He never fought an "uphill" battle, so I really wonder how he would have managed a war with Reim or another country with metal vessels.
    Last edited by GrySun; February 24, 2015 at 06:26 PM.
    "Spirit of truth and conviction, I command thee and thy household: envelope me, dwell in my body, turn me into a great demon.....Belial!"
    -Edge lord Hakuryuu 2015

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member minette's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Great Facial Hair

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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GrySun View Post
    I didn't say that. I said he didn't have any other wars with any other countries after the unification. At least it was never said. And its called a theory, not a fanfic.
    You did say that. "They didn't attack other countries and make war on them" when we know they did. And it is a fanfic, because it's completely baseless.

    Quote Quote:
    She's in love with him, anyone can see that. I expect her to call him her onii-chan/senpai any time now.
    Other people also admire him for his mercy and compassion. It's not just her.

    Quote Quote:
    "Hi, you want subjugation or destruction? Let me know 'kay?" Is quite wide and varied, I agree.
    Magnostadt was not a peaceful community of farmers. They were an aggressive, yet isolationist country that that was causing strife to wherever they went. They didn't have foreign relations with other countries other than to attack them and take their lands.

    To a man like Kouen, who's ultimate goal is world peace, a country like Magnostadt is a threat.

    Quote Quote:
    I didn't read that anywhere, and he got injured because he said his path was the same as what his brothers wanted. Considering he is issuing out revenge as Hakuren told him, I don't understand why he got damaged. Maybe Hakuren wanted him to take revenge peacefully? Eh...
    He was injured because his brothers wouldn't have wanted him to destroy the Kou Empire in the process. And it was during his discussion with Not-Hakuei. He admitted that he should abandon his hatred and support Kouen.

    Quote Quote:
    Take Magnostadt for example. People lived there very nicely, better than in the Kou empire imo(but I'm just a sucker of magical tools in a town making everything shiny, so it's just my opinion). Still, they had no problems at all, and Kouen couldn't know about the magic furnace. Not to mention the people there aren't even the majority of the population, I think?

    And Kouha called the value of Magnostadt: an important base for future wars. So they mostly cared for a base of operations, not any well being of the people. That's just a secondary objective aka. nice if you can, meh whatever if you can't fulfill it.
    As I pointed out, even if you were on the outside looking in, they were an aggressive country that advanced very quickly. Kouen and his brothers even compared them to Kou in terms of how fast they progressed and developed.

    I'd also like to point out that Kouen took precautions during the Medium battle to reduce collateral damage against Magnostadt.

    Quote Quote:
    It's hard to get results when you have metal vessels which can destroy everything and defeat all normal soldiers. He never fought an "uphill" battle, so I really wonder how he would have managed a war with Reim or another country with metal vessels.
    Both Kou and Reim had no intention of using Djinn Equip unless it was to counter one another. The destructiveness of metal vessels is something the world at large fears and they don't want to fight wars using them.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member minette's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    The life the Kou empire offers is not really that great, I don't think their standard of living are better than the ones in Reim or the seven seas alliance countries. The lives of the people of Sindria would be actually worse than now. Also if you think about it Kou hasn't face a single powerful country yet. Considering the current situation they would probably get their assed kicked by the SSA right now, so all the war and destruction would have been in vain.

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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by minette View Post
    The life the Kou empire offers is not really that great, I don't think their standard of living are better than the ones in Reim or the seven seas alliance countries. The lives of the people of Sindria would be actually worse than now. Also if you think about it Kou hasn't face a single powerful country yet. Considering the current situation they would probably get their assed kicked by the SSA right now, so all the war and destruction would have been in vain.
    Sindria has housing issues. Many people just sleep wherever they can find the space. They might throw parties at the drop of a hat, but something tells me people there have a hard time finding work for a living. Many might only own the clothes on their backs while living off the bounty of the sea.

    Honestly, Sindria and the Alliance are a house of cards built on a cult of personality. Soon as Sinbad is out of the picture, everything will come apart at the seams.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member minette's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastgrove View Post
    Sindria has housing issues. Many people just sleep wherever they can find the space. They might throw parties at the drop of a hat, but something tells me people there have a hard time finding work for a living. Many might only own the clothes on their backs while living off the bounty of the sea.

    Honestly, Sindria and the Alliance are a house of cards built on a cult of personality. Soon as Sinbad is out of the picture, everything will come apart at the seams.
    wait the alliance has a cult of personality when they talk shit about Sinbad all the time but not Kou around Kouen? ok... And soon? why do you think SInbad will die sooner than Kouen for example?

    I don't remember that many indigents in SIndria ( or none at all) in fact pretty much all the people who went there ( fish princes, Hakuryuu and the main trio) thinks it's a great country. And Ithnan even complained about the white ruck..

    And the reason why Sindria is overpopulated is because people actually want to live there, it's considered the country of dreams.
    Last edited by minette; February 24, 2015 at 08:09 PM.

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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    wow thread got busy.

    Hmm what can i say about kouen well all has already been said. Great character complex and semi mysterious but like many other characters in the series he is a hypocrite.

    I don't by he cannot prove that gyokuen killed hakutoku and his sons but like the generals he just didn't think the murder is the founder of the kou empire is worth splitting the empire for. I guess one can argue he is more macro than mirco in his thinking, but lets be real its still about power and he got it. I doubt he was in on his dad and gyokuen's plan, but when it happened he still benefited so why complain.

    IN regards to his treatment of hakuryuu i don't know why he would let gyokuen influence him to look down on the legitimate heir of the empire when a strong vassal could take hakuryuu and back his claim (anyone who reads imperial china history knows what i'm talking about). All he sweet talk about giving up on hakuryuu seems just like when he asked him if he wanted to be emperor (oh look hakuryuu got a MV i wonder if i can use him like i use his sister and my brothers). Hakuryuu was playing a quiet prince all this time and was even a cry baby when training with his sisters retainer. So i guess thats why he was looking down on him idk.

    Other than that he does look out for his brothers though. I do find it curious as to why he as 1st prince isn't engaged and neither was hakuyuu hmmm.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GrySun's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastgrove
    You did say that. "They didn't attack other countries and make war on them" when we know they did. And it is a fanfic, because it's completely baseless.
    With "they" I meant the Kou empire. Was it the Kou empire that unified the countries at war or was it the Kou empire that resulted from that unification? And you dodge the point, which is that it was never mentioned that Hakutoku attacked any other country after the creation of Kou. I don't see how it could be his wish to conquer the world when he never even tried.
    And everything I said is based on something. I didn't say Kouen lied, I said that it doesn't matter if he's lying or not. You should reread posts before jumping to any conclusions.

    Quote Quote:
    Other people also admire him for his mercy and compassion. It's not just her.
    The other people being his close brothers and sisters and the soldiers he commands. And did they ever say what they meant with that? Kouen healing Kouha back at Magnostadt is merciful. I doubt he treats each wounder soldier of his like that.

    Quote Quote:
    Magnostadt was not a peaceful community of farmers. They were an aggressive, yet isolationist country that that was causing strife to wherever they went. They didn't have foreign relations with other countries other than to attack them and take their lands.

    To a man like Kouen, who's ultimate goal is world peace, a country like Magnostadt is a threat.
    Yes I agree about Magnostadt. But that has nothing to do with Kou's methods being "wide and varied" as you said. Talking about baseless assumptions, huh. They didn't treat Magnostadt special at all. Kouha didn't do any diplomatic activity other than this one choice so it's obvious that they did the same with most countries they "negotiated" with.
    And he didn't attack Magnostadt because it was a threat. They sought a base of operations for further wars. Why should they care which wars are happening right now? It can only make things easier for them to walk in and take it all for themselves.

    Quote Quote:
    He was injured because his brothers wouldn't have wanted him to destroy the Kou Empire in the process. And it was during his discussion with Not-Hakuei. He admitted that he should abandon his hatred and support Kouen.
    http://www.mangareader.net/magi/243/9 Apparently nothing here had to do with Kouen, reread it. Hakuryuu's feelings aren't the same as the wish Hakuren and Hakuyuu had. This can mean many many things, and none are connected to Kouen in any way.

    Quote Quote:
    As I pointed out, even if you were on the outside looking in, they were an aggressive country that advanced very quickly. Kouen and his brothers even compared them to Kou in terms of how fast they progressed and developed.
    The people of Magnostadt lived quite happily despite that.

    Quote Quote:
    I'd also like to point out that Kouen took precautions during the Medium battle to reduce collateral damage against Magnostadt.
    Not because of the people, thats for sure. It's hard to take rubble as your base of operations for further wars. When the medium died Kouen admitted that they were all only on temporary ceasefire and that his original goal didn't change, which was to occupy Magnostadt. And he still knew that as he was fighting the medium. Of course he would want to keep the damage minimal.

    Quote Quote:
    Both Kou and Reim had no intention of using Djinn Equip unless it was to counter one another. The destructiveness of metal vessels is something the world at large fears and they don't want to fight wars using them.
    When was that ever said? And as I said before, it is clear that Kouen has been using his metal vessels plenty during his wars against other nations. How else would he master their powers and the djinn equip? He certainly didn't train with his brothers and sisters. And of course he would use it against Reim too. He would use it when it wouldn't harm his soldiers and even if he harmed them nobody would complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by minette
    The life the Kou empire offers is not really that great, I don't think their standard of living are better than the ones in Reim or the seven seas alliance countries. The lives of the people of Sindria would be actually worse than now. Also if you think about it Kou hasn't face a single powerful country yet. Considering the current situation they would probably get their assed kicked by the SSA right now, so all the war and destruction would have been in vain.
    I agree. The wars would have been in vain for them, but Al-Thamen would definitely still profit. I bet they knew that the SSA would defeat them or even Reim. But even if Kouen and his soldiers die that's good for them.

    Quote Quote:
    Sindria has housing issues. Many people just sleep wherever they can find the space. They might throw parties at the drop of a hat, but something tells me people there have a hard time finding work for a living. Many might only own the clothes on their backs while living off the bounty of the sea.

    Honestly, Sindria and the Alliance are a house of cards built on a cult of personality. Soon as Sinbad is out of the picture, everything will come apart at the seams.
    How can that be true? Link a manga page if that ever was visible. If anyone was sleeping on the street it would be someone drunk. And if they all had work issues, how could Sinbad so easily accept all those Orba pirates and even give them work? Sinbad would never take some random pirate children over his own faithful citizens if it was a time of crisis as you say.

    Every member of the alliance is definitely quite profiting from all the trading. Even if Sinbad died they would still uphold their military and economic connections, especially in times of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by minette
    And the reason why Sindria is overpopulated is because people actually want to live there, it's considered the country of dreams.
    That's what I believe as well. Anyone who went there wanted to stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Aegon 1
    IN regards to his treatment of hakuryuu i don't know why he would let gyokuen influence him to look down on the legitimate heir of the empire when a strong vassal could take hakuryuu and back his claim (anyone who reads imperial china history knows what i'm talking about). All he sweet talk about giving up on hakuryuu seems just like when he asked him if he wanted to be emperor (oh look hakuryuu got a MV i wonder if i can use him like i use his sister and my brothers). Hakuryuu was playing a quiet prince all this time and was even a cry baby when training with his sisters retainer. So i guess thats why he was looking down on him idk.
    I basically agree with every letter you wrote here. MArGi you need to answer this part right here. The first real time he talked to Hakuryuu was right after he got a metal vessel. Coincidence? Hardly. And it was easy to see both Kougyoku and Hakuei swayed in by his great speech as they both seem extremely gullible.
    And it also strikes me as odd that he would take over the ideals of the Haku family due to respect but not take greater care of Hakuryuu due to his respect. He dropped him easily and quickly and blames Gyokuen for that.

    Quote Quote:
    I do find it curious as to why he as 1st prince isn't engaged and neither was hakuyuu hmmm.
    Gay? Ahem, I mean, maybe they never had the time due to all the wars 'n stuff. I also heard death was quite a wall in making relationships. I wonder when Hakutoku found Gyokuen and time for her though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MArGi
    BUT, he and Koumei are looking at the future when they are doing all of this.
    This what you say in Kouen's defense is actually one of his biggest mistakes. Hakuryuu is actually the product of this "look forward, look towards the future". While it's often critizied to live in the past, living for the future is incredibly wrong as well. Kouen didn't pay nearly enough attention to the past nor the present. He ignored the death of the ruling family, he ignored the child who survived the fire and possibly even witnessed his brothers die with his own eyes which would definitely make him scarred, he ignored Al-Thamen's reason for helping them as long as he got what he needed to build his "future". And when he was forced to do something about Hakuryuu, he didn't care enough or found it to be too late to turn around, so he just used Phenex and considered the problem done.

    This issue he has with Hakuryuu right now is the product of all the things he ignored, both the present and the past which he found negligible. Death or worse is quite deserved for him at this point.
    Last edited by GrySun; February 24, 2015 at 08:46 PM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member minette's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Emm I think it's in a guide that Kouen spends a lot of time using his djins during his military campaigns ( why wouldn't he?)

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member GrySun's Avatar
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    Re: Kouen Ren Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by minette View Post
    Emm I think it's in a guide that Kouen spends a lot of time using his djins during his military campaigns ( why wouldn't he?)
    Because :
    Quote Originally Posted by Eastgrove
    The destructiveness of metal vessels is something the world at large fears and they don't want to fight wars using them.
    Obvious.
    "Spirit of truth and conviction, I command thee and thy household: envelope me, dwell in my body, turn me into a great demon.....Belial!"
    -Edge lord Hakuryuu 2015

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