I told you I would get back to Miria later. Since it would be off-topic to discuss it in the chapter thread here's a dedicated topic to one of the most important characters in Claymore.
Miria's plan working was an ass-pull by Yagi since for it to work Claymores had to be injured in a way they would lose consciousness and not die in the process. Also, Clare was the only one of the bunch that could survive Pieta (although in her case it could mean becoming an awakened being) by her power alone. How could all 6 of them (Yuma was already out) be hit just like that when they were surrounded from all sides O_O ? That's like all of them would hit a jackpot in a lottery with chances 1:14 000 000. ABs, being on all sides would see the hit in every possible angle and no one would notice it? 6 times?
And Miria didn't think about such an obvious alternative and much more efficient strategy as escaping using the pills. Instead of handing over the pills, explaining the situation and making everyone scatter she preferred to go with her plan which resulted in only 7 Claymores standing. Miria, while having huge amounts of pills (they had them even after 7 years and fed them to Audrey and the rest) decided to fight instead of making everyone scatter while being cloaked. They had time to escape but didn't. I could understand it if she didn't know Organization's true colors but she had no reason to obey them in that situation. I highly doubt that there would be more casualties if she did that. In fact she might have been able to crush the organization without lifting a finger. Male ABs would have no reason to pursue Pieta warriors, they were heading to the Org. But Miria did exactly what MiB wanted anyway. Hence she's a retard.
You call that genius? That's basic "divide and conquer" strategy. Haven't you heard about expression "two dogs fight for a bone and a third runs away with it" or "when two quarrel, a third wins"? And it only worked because Yagi made a total idiot out of Hysteria and Miria super lucky. I mean, how come Miria wasn't hit by any of the numerous attacks? She basically went into a shredder without being hit by the blades even though her opponent was. That's absurd. In other words it was not because Miira's plan was genius. Dumbing someone down is easy, making a genius out of him is not.
Again, nothing even remotely brilliant in this. On the contrary. Fab 7 (+Galatea) were near the blob earlier and haven't triggered any reaction and Raki was the only other living person who knew Clare so taking him along wouldn't hurt. But to be honest, earlier they didn't even try to do much about her AFAWK since they were afraid that would free Priscilla and Destroyer along the way. Which brings us to: Miria is a retard. Her plan was to let Priscilla and Destroyer escape to not let Cassandra power up Priscilla. So instead of fighting Cassandra she thought it would be better to fight not only her but Priscilla and Destroyer too O_O. And didn't think that after freeing her, Priscilla could go to Cassandra to power-up anyway, lol. What Miria did was many times more risky and had no logic in it. And in the first place, where did she get the ridiculous idea of Cassandra powering Priscilla up from? That doesn't make any sense and has no explanation besides that Yagi has decided to let her know that.Quote:
And thinking that Raki, who Clare has known for a few months at most would have bigger influence than friends she knew for over 7 years was ridiculous. Not to mention that present Raki doesn't even remotely resemble the Raki she knew (not his voice, nor his appearance).
If you ask me, Miria had only fail moments. Her every "genius" plan was stupid and/or extremely risky and worked only because Yagi made it so. Logic had nothing to do with it. Other example is how she has convinced everyone to follow her. In chapter 123 on the other hand, Miria looked like a retard when she asked Deneve again and again "Huh?" after our favourite Yagi's mouthpiece explained things to her. And here's another example. There is many more but I'll stop at that for now.
And now that i think of it , its kinda dumb that Miria never got hit by the blades.....and if u remember Miria Dodged cassandras head the same one that hit Hysteria ......Yagi made a fool out of Hysteria once she awakened ( i can accept miria beating her as a claymore due to miria almost awaking)
And did miria herself not say all her plans . Peitia,Crushing the Org,Raki being alive.....they were all miracles...so her plans relay less on Genius and more on sheer dumb luck
I hate how yagi made Hysteria into a complete moron could only focus on one thing. How could hysteria not realize that she's being led into another battle. miria should never have beaten her before Hysteria awakened to begin with. Seriously, her death was so stupid. Magically falling on a claymore that you can somehow conceal underneath your body, then some how manage to pick it up with your teeth and impale hysteria in a matter of seconds. SMH at Hysteria's death.Quote:
Why am I not surprised at who started this thread.... Oh well.....
A note, I didn't said that Miria is a genius - I said that she is not genius but she is not retarded either.
She can come up with a plan, but I must agree that all her plans rely mostly on luck ( like Goral said, Pieta, Hysteria and getting black Clare required a LOT of luck ). Her plans thus far in manga are 30%-40% planing and 70%-60% pure luck - witch she has lot of it. She is actually one very lucky strategist.
Addition to Pieta case: Sure, Miria could run away using pills and have 24 warriors at her side instead of 7 - but there is no way that she could know what would AB's do when they finish with Pieta. I bet that if she knew that half of them would go to Riful and other half to Organization she would let them pass and hide in the north. But general thought back than was that if the AB's break trough Pieta they would rampage central lands and kill hundreds or even thousands of Humans. And she wouldn't want that, nor would others like Clare or Helen or Deneve or Jean... She knew about Alicia and Beth back than so she probably knew that they would stop them if enough time was given.
Besides, Miria should have known that MiB would not leave these ABs alone since their presence would undermine their authority and they would become useless otherwise. If people wouldn't be able to rely on them and if they wouldn't protect the material for more Claymores they could as well abandon the island. The fact is, Miria knew perfectly that the first stop these ABs would do would be Org's HQ. Hence they were sent to Pieta before ABs could even reach it.
And most importantly, after killing the first three ABs there were over 28 ABs left (these were only the ones who were "messing around" if what Isley said was true so there could be more). Then next 3 ABs have fallen and 25 were left. Then Rigaldo died. Then 11 went to the HQ and 11-14 after Riful. Point being that even with Miria's and everyone else's best effort they've managed to kill 9 ABs at most which was less than 1/3rd of Isley's forces and which resulted in the death of 17 Claymores and it was a miracle they didn't die themselves (it was only thanks to Clare and Jean they didn't die).
So Miria's plan was naive from the start because she couldn't have known that Isley wouldn't intervene and in such case they all would be dead in an instant, they wouldn't slow any ABs down and ABs would do with humans further south whatever they wanted. Even without Isley Miria knew they stood no chance of winning (which she stated as much herself in a cave) and for all she knew they might not even manage to kill 1 AB. When staying alive they could at least try hunting ABs down later little by little but they would not to be able to help when they would be dead.
Last but not least, reasoning that ABs would suddenly increase their appetites and start killing more humans they could eat is far-fetched at best.
In short: Miria is a retard.
I see.... that still doesn't mean that Miria is retard, in the same way I can prove you that every allied commander in World War II was a retard, that their tactics were flawed on more than several occasions and tha they costed more man and machines that would otherwise require. But that doesn't matter because they won the war and have immense luck in beating the Axis powers ( especially at D-Day ). Does that prove that someone is retard? No, it proves that no matter what decision you made in difficult times you will always have to rely on luck to achieve victory or to see your plan fulfilled.
Same goes for Miria, with limited knowledge she had on the field at the specific moment she tried to do her best for herself and others. And I pretty much doubt that Claymores would run even if Isley got to Pieta, they would still fight and die to the last warrior so that doesn't matter anyway ( because that was "waht would happened if happened this way" situation, same like "what would happened if all three AO's gathered and decided to take down Organization and split the entire land in three parts? ). Miria is obviously not a genius, nobody in Claymore is genius ( well Daae could be exception and Rubel giving how much he loves to manipulate people ) but she is not retard either as she can come up with plans and tactics in a middle of battle and successively deploy them. Even if her plans are strange and flawed in many ways they are decided literally in the middle of battle or day before, that is why they require a lot of luck as many things are in motion and many things can go wrong. Probably the best example Miria is not retard is at results of her plans: at Pieta she and 6 more Claymores survived and at Sutafy Organization is destroyed, two AO's killed and no warrior died. And better example for that is ghosts themselves, if she war really retard and useless why would Ghost follow her? We know that most of Claymores are highly independent ( Clare is best example for that ) and some of them are pretty smart and philosophical in nature ( Deneve is also good example for this ) so I doubt that anyone short of Tabitha who admire her would follow her any longer ( perfect scene for that is when she told them that she resign as their leader and would go alone with Clare but everyone refused to do so and decided to follow her, I know they would anyway follow her but they put her as commander again witch tells us of her ability ).
In short: Miria is not a retard, but neither a genius. But she tries to made best choice in given situation no matter how much flawed it really is.
But those are your opinion on her and I respect them to. But I think that there is no need to rant about those kind of things every time just because you don't like them. There are also some things I don't like in manga but things are like they are and since Yagi is writing it and not us we can just sit back and hope that he will surprise us in some way.
@ Gooral, I thought the boys were being supplied to the factory/compound that Deneve and co destroyed. Weren't they supplied to make new AB's? Why would you send just boys to the north for food? That's doesn't make a whole lot of sense? The girls sent to the east were sent to headquarters to make new claymores right? Since there were still people in the north isn't it more likely that the AB were rationing their food supply? Pria ills went a long time without eating its not hard to imagine the others doing the same.Quote:
How doesn't it make sense?
I remembered about it prefectly (I've even posted this specific piece o information in the Observations thread) and I think that they might have been sent to this lab as well as to this base. After all Raki was being held in a prison there. I think that makes a lot of sense. Besides, these people who turned to ABs didn't look like kids who were brought up by MiB. It seemed they didn't know exactly what would happen with them so my guess is that many of them (all?) have been changed long after their puberty. That's why they were so different than other ABs we've seen.
Last edited by Goral; September 14, 2012 at 02:51 PM.
You said that the northern lands were resupplied with the boys,too keep Isley happy and prevent him from moving into other areas at least that's what I got from your post. Which doesnt make a whole lot of sense as we clearly see entire families in Pieta. Why would you put children in the north instead of adults. I agree with you that those boys were take to that lab and used to make the AB we saw. Or could those have been male illagers that were taken?Quote:
I think that Miria is a lucky stategist. She usually has a good plan A but doesn't have a plan B. She just gets lucky when something goes wrong like Rigaldo showing up (saved by Clare), 6 armed male AB (saved by Clare), lone attack on the Organization (saved by Warriors?). She had good strategies like taking the yoki supression pill before Pieta, Leading Hysteria in a battle between 2 other abyssals, and using Raki to get Clare out of the blob. Some of her plans have worked and some haven't. If none of her plans worked then She would be a retard. But they have and she is not a retard. As much as you like accusing others of it Gooral, Miria is not a retard. The ghosts wouldn't follow her if she was. And neither would all of the other warriors. So she obviously is something special if her enemies decide not to kill her in the middle of a battle and become her allies. Rigaldo was an unknown variable in Pieta that caused a lot of deaths. Cassandra and the others were also unknown variables that Miria didn't know about and therefore didn't include in her innitial plan. Why would she? she couldn't have known that the Org. could resurrect dead number 1s or expected Rigaldo to be in Isley's war.
Last edited by Claymore1; September 14, 2012 at 05:43 PM.
Neither. Miria is not a genius nor an idiot. She's a person with above average curiosity, lots of good luck, great people skills, loads upon loads of charisma, and a fair amount of intelligence.
People often mistake charisma and vision for genius or exceptional intellect. Former American president Kennedy was charming and had a vision for America's future, but he was no genius. WW2 Prime Minister Churchill was a great visionary, persuasive speaker, and charismatic politician, but the actual military strategies that won the war didn't come from him -all the military leaders on the allied side contributed to victory, nobody was a brilliant strategist: it was luck, risk-taking, good morale, spy-networks, and a few good generals. Miria is a cunning politician, inspiring commander, decent strategist, and intelligent investigator.
Curiosity and Cleverness:
Claymores in the past have had issues with the organization or suffered from its unfair practices:Teresa got suspicious, Galatea got suspicious, Cassandra was mad at Roxanne and thus purged by the organization Claymores. I'm pretty sure cases similar to the Miria-Hilda happened in the past (since black card can be lost, not delivered, delivered too late). Heck, a few Claymores in the past generations may have even investigated the organization, like Miria, but were killed before they found enough evidence, or they failed to win over comrades to launch a rebellion. We know from Galatea and Teresa's case that some high ranking warriors get suspicious but don't investigate....why not? Why didn't Teresa investigate the organization that took away her "beautiful black hair", why didn't God-Eye Galatea do some detective work on the organization that treats her comrades like rubbish? Not out of fear, but our of indifference. Note that Miria could have easily blamed Ophelia entirely for Hilda's death and plot revenge against No.4 like how Cassandra took revenge on Roxanne. Unlike Cassandra, Miria didn't have the power to beat Ophelia, but she could have secretly plotted against her. However, Miria sees the bigger picture: she knows that Ophelia can't be entirely blamed -every Claymore have tragic backgrounds, some end up more deranged than others. She blames the organization's mistreatment of claymores (for tolerating ppl like Ophelia, for not caring about warriors) and becomes suspicious of the organization. She then secretly investigates the organization, and luckily manages to avoid being killed (thanks to having Clare on her team against the male AB).
Conclusion: Miria is inquisitive, rational, and good at seeing the grand scheme of things (she plans for the future; something other Claymores don't seem to do -they just live day to day -even Clare, who actually has a mission- other Claymores don't have visions or deams for the future due to the high likelihood of death, but Miria does have plans).
Good luck and Good people skills:
Miria's luck has already been brilliantly analyzed by Goral. But we have to admit that she has enormous charisma, personal charm, and tact. She is persuasive, evident in her success in convincing the Claymores to rebel; she made a favorable impression on Audrey after the Ghosts saved her; she, not Galatea, negotiated with the government of Rabona city for shelter and support, thus displaying both the ghosts' faith in her and her political skill; she has an air of authority and most importantly, takes command and steps into the position of leadership when other people won't: Galatea should have negotiated with the city, but Galatea instead chose to defer to Miria, and in pieta, only Undine was suspicious of Miria but Flora quickly became loyal to Miria -these are all proof of Miria's charisma.
Everyone has there strength and weaknesses: Miria's strong suit is persuading and inspiring others with her vision. Since nobody else is doing much planning or strategizing, it falls on Miria, as the politician and leader, to think up battle tactics. The Prime Minister or President probably doesn't have a degree in Economics or Military Strategy, yet the public expects him to fix the economy or win a war....thus, when the PM or Prez makes plans to fix the economy, results vary from good to terrible.
I want to advise Miria to enlist a better strategist , but sadly, there is no strategist better than herself in Claymore: Irene is dead for all we know, Audrey and Galatea haven't demonstrated much strategy, none of the ghosts actually make battle plans, Clare has good battle tactics but they mostly involve herself (not a team player). So Miria the team player, decent strategist is the one people have to rely on.
Thank you number12michael for pointing out my mistake...I meant to say "like how Cassandra attempted to kill Roxanne". Yeah, she blindly rushed to attack her, and got outwitted because Roxanne convinced the org. that Cassandra was rebeling, thus getting other Claymores to attack Cassandra. Still, same idea: Miria didn't rush into the org to attack Ophelia, she directed her hatred not against the person directly responsible for her friend's death, but towards the org. she also planned and investigated for quite some time before attacking the org. Bottom line: Cassy wanted Roxanne DEAD, Miria wanted justice and political change/revolution
---------- Post added at 11:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------
Adding to my point above: After so many years of planning, Miria's solo attack on the org was very stupid. I have to admit that. However, she redeemed herself after she managed to convince all the Claymores (except #10) to rebel. Good persuasion skills and charm.
As for why take children instead of adults, if they were orphans (and from what Rubel said it seems to be the case) no one would miss them and adults would usually have families. And children have a longer expiration date :P. Plus from what we've seen in the manga they seem to be tastier and smell better.
Anyway, you haven't replied to my other argument either:
these people who turned to ABs didn't look like kids who were brought up by MiB. It seemed they didn't know exactly what would happen with them so my guess is that many of them (all?) have been changed long after their puberty. That's why they were so different than other ABs we've seen.
And the number 10 did rebel with them, remember she said that she knew Miria's yoki had not vanished(meaning she knew miria was just cut up not dead) and she never told the Org about it..... i think it was Rimuto who said "oh so i take it your on there side aswell".....and i dont understand how the twins managed to survive Roxannes attack....she shoved her sword in there heads...i dont see how n10's ability would have saved them
And goral i always thought that the boys sent north were used by the MiB....or they were just used as slaves by the people who live in the north(due to it being underpopulated)...And Goral maybe once you awaken it causes you to "mature" I.E. Rufil awakening as a child yet having an adult awakened body