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Friendship doesn't built in one or two days, I can accept Kyuubi respecting Naruto, hell he kicked his butt, but best buddies?
Not so much.
Same Kyuubi that, just saying, had no problem killing Naruto and escaping from the seal just a month prior
EDIT: Ninja'd by GomuGomu_Getsuga
No, it would make way more sense if, say, Juugo or Suigetsu heard about it when they were experimented on or something like that instead of "Juugo smashes, Juugo destroys!" "found Rare Item:Tool to control the world"Quote:
How many chapters ago?Quote:
Do you really believe that Sasuke is the same Sasuke?
That Sasuke needed someone to stall Kisame, and so he formed a team and gave Suigetsu a sword he already knew where it was. Or what, do you expect Sasuke of all people to go searching for swords?
Same Sasuke that doesn't care about companions ? The very notion is laughable, since it implies the notion that Sasuke considers Suigetsu like an equal
In case you forgot its Naruto, not Sasuke, the one about friendship and all that
Nagato was emotionally frail from the beginnig. Nagato lived and wanted to live by Jirayas ideals but was forced to isolate himselfe from his feelings because of all the cruel things he couldn't deal witch, futhermore he probably was supported by Obito in excluding himselfe from the world. It is understandable that Nagato deep down always wanted to return to things how they were before Yahikos death. Naruto who was alot like Yahiko and jiraya made him remember the part of himselfe that wanted to be like them. Nagato who was already near death (had sacrificed his health for power) decided on Yahikos way of doing things like somekind of dying-wish.
Nothing to complain about here (it could have been stretched out abit, underlined with a few unseen flashbacks, to make it more beliveable, but it was okay...)
The 9-Tail on the otherhand was introduced to the manga as the very personification of hatered. A mass of violent charka which appereared like a natural disaster whereever there was conflict and suppressed hatred. It was like the living form of anger itself.
There was no hint, that the 9-tails ever was any different from this, there was no hint his anger sprung from being held captive by a Host. As said hatred itself!
The 9-tails hating Madara more then Naruto => okay
The 9-tails being freinds with anybody => not okay
What disappoints me the most about this is that this development again is just a pathetic excuse not to deal with a really personally challenging emotion (hatered).
Does Naruto have to face his own hatered ?(yes well stupid waterfall naruto, mad about people not liking him, or screaming faces angry about something when he tried to gain 9tails chakra....) He does, in a very unsatisfying way for 2 chapters.
The concept of Naruto using the 9tails chakra carefully without losing control, making peace with this complexe emoition was a really cool concept idea, but it was tossed.
For what you ask?
Well ofcourse some more fist-clenching Naruto admiration, as he yet again convinces another evil-being to change for no reason at all, with a stupid seach which is as obito would phrase it : completly empty.
Last edited by Revvo; September 23, 2012 at 07:08 AM.
If this was a real event not a manga then yes okay you can allways say "I didn't see the signs forshadowing this".
But this is a story, you are basicly saying that the author can do anything at anypoint in the story (completly change characters and the plot) and just say well this is the way they really are, there was no need to show any development or explain anything.
By your logic Naturo could switch sides next chapter and fight alongside Madara and Obito and we would all agree "oh well so this is what he really wanted, there was no reason to show any notion towards evil in part 1, it just wasn't needed".
In my opinion Character development is necessary for the reader to comprehend the characters and relate to them.
Good example => Naruto : basicly no character development (except for the last meeting with sasuke, that was the first time he said something i could realte to), has become the most boring character of the manga.
Kuruma => Complete and utter turn around, with little reason and no forshadowing.... To me it's the same as if a complety new character appeared out of thin air to give naruto a new power.
bad writing .
only way i can understand you feeling different is that Kuruma is like a new character to you aswell (and you like that character) and you never really considered the evil 9-tails a real character to begin with (so you are not bothered by the way it simply got replaced.)
Last edited by Revvo; September 23, 2012 at 08:38 AM.
Don't be ridiculous, that's going too far. Of course Naruto switching sides wouldn't happen but you didn't get my point even remotely.
Hmm. You also have to refresh your memory that this is a shounen manga. I can't fathom anyone expecting a plot/storytelling/character development and whatnot to be similar to Edgar Allan Poe's or Ernest Hemingway's work. This shit ain't that serious and Kishi is probably leaving a lot of holes in the story for us to explain them to ourselves alone. I also don't like that but it's also a way of storytelling.
If there was somekind of human emotion, curiosity towards naruto, complainig about beeing traped by humans, sign that the 9-tails would have lived his life in peace if he wasn't sealed, ever shown in part 1 you really think people would complain about the author rushing things???? 600 chapter until they become friends and you think anybody would say kishi rushed this realtionship???
Rushing things is what happened, Qb doesn't like Madara and BAM exchanges Bro-fists with Naruto.....Suddenly talking about Narutos dreams, which the very same creature always regarded as naiv and foolish until like 20 chapters ago.
This justification is just the same as Naruto switching sides. Explain to me in which way it is any differen? No forshadowing of events followed by unfitting change of heart scene resulting form the author not planing the hole tailedbeast story from the start. He's trying to force the story towards the ending he planed eventough it doesn't fit the previous developments anymore....
Edgar Allan Poe ..... please....
there is a fine line between the work of a expirienced novelist and randomly trashing ideas into a story, but yes i would like the manga to exist within this very small gap between total trash and great work. I'm not expecting too much here, the hole Siguetsu finding this random scroll of doom in a random room of doom doesn't bother me one bit. Team taka has always been an underdeveloped device of story telling and I'm not expecting them to be anymore until they die (like kisame), no problem with that, but they are not part of the mainstory, the main issuse of the manga (the conflict between working hard and trying to understadn people and isolating yourselfe from others, only caring about yourselfe). If this main conflict becomes cheap and cheesy I for one am not pleased to see this.
I just said Juugo and Suigetsu are not very smart characters. Finding Sasuke in Orochimaru's hideout was the best solution that they could come up with in the absence of concrete information.
If it's Shikamaru or someone more intelligent, then perhaps there will be some merit to your complaint. As it is right now that is not the case I'm afraid.
Is there any reason why they wouldn't?Quote:
They never saw what happened in the Sasuke v Danzou fight.
So? The fact remains that by doing so, Sasuke has gained the trust of Suigetsu.Quote:
Whether or not it was a sincere act was largely irrelevant at this point.
Suigetsu trusted him. That's all the reason he needs to stay in the group.
Is this relevant to the debate at all? Your original argument was that it doesn't make any sense for Suigetsu to keep staying in the group and go search for Sasuke.Quote:
I refuted it.
And by the way Sasuke is not really a one dimensional character, his personality changes over the course of the manga depending on new revelations, events and other factors. He was genuinely caring about his comrades when he cut off Bee's Amaterasu-ed tentacle to save Karin. But in the Danzou fight, he was pushing everything aside (including his teammates) to get revenge. Now, it seems that he is going onto a journey to find answers about the past events of the village.
He changes. But you are still stuck with the "Danzou era him".
Characters in Naruto are rarely one-dimensional. People simply stereotype and generalize.
Last edited by Ryr; September 23, 2012 at 09:50 AM.
It seems you need to re-read some chapters, too. He didn't bro-fist Naruto. He simply used him to "attack" Madara because he didn't want to be controlled again. Yeah, it's that simple. Nothing is unfitting. Like I said, them becoming partners was known and predicted since the day Kurama first spoke to Naruto. It was to be expected. For 500 chapters, he was an enemy of Naruto. What? You want another 500 spent on Kurama's change of heart? Are you fucking kidding me? Nearly 100 chapters is enough to finish their friendship development.
I don't need any more argumentation towards your ridiculous bashing of artist who is clearly on top for the last whole decade regarding manga. It's a matter of opinion and taste of who, which or what should be explained in full details in a book/novel/manga/whatever. In each and every story, there is always at least one subject that is not fully explained or run through.
it seems to me your hole argumentation is based on posting nonesense and claiming i didn't understand what you really said....
and no i did not want another 500 chapters to explain theire realition, i want 500 in wich the development is atleast hinted to begin with. Not 500 chapter pure hatered and then Bro-fist-best-buddys ( http://i.imgur.com/lTRKR.png + http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...67053452_n.jpg ) in 3-4 chapters.
Btw just because you could guess naruto befriending kuruma, after we saw bee (...) doesn't me that the development has been forshadowed or is likely to happen, since there has been nothing but hatred from Kurumas side until madara appeared.... (also make up your mind is kuruma using him now, or is he a friend... you contradict yourself)
Obito was obivous aswell but unlikely, well atleast in his case there are some flashbacks coming to explain, I doubt we will see this happen with the 9-tails....
but forget it... I don't want to read another of your "youz didz not get whatz i was saying"-posts .... as that seems to be the only way you can skip explaining your viewpoints.
Last edited by Revvo; September 23, 2012 at 01:55 PM.
OH DAMN ... OP you forgot the crucial parts :
Raikage does not use full speed + kill intent against sasuke that he tought to be his brother's murderer
instead he goes full against naruto that is trying to save the world
he is unable to break baby susanoo , yet he can break madara's susanoo ... actually baby susanoo could probably be broken by konohamaru these days
sasuke , plothole protection since 1999
Raikage use his full speed, that's the only way he could dodge Amaterasu.
Raikage only broke/crack Madara's Susanoo with the help of Oonoki, he didnt do anything by himself.
Naruto Literatully got a warning before Raikage charge at him.
We understand that you hate Sasuke but there's no need to lie on a character.
A lot of arguments on here... I can understand both viewpoints.
I'll just list a few of my thoughts.
The Kyuubi thing:
I don't mind Kurama being a good guy now, as it was strongly implied to happen eventually...
I wish there had been a better transition. Yes, there was some-what of a transition during the "War," but it felt forced, and was kinda jarring. The story really could have used something where Naruto and Kurama actually talk to one another for a while, or are forced to work together, and in the process, come to understand one another.
Maybe when Naruto meets Edo-Madara, the Kyuubi's rage overflows, breaking through the seal Naruto put in place. Naruto starts to see where Kurama's rage comes from, at being continually used by peaople. Madara traps them both in a genjutsu, and so both Naruto and Kurama have to talk things out, so that they can work together and break out of the genjutsu. Maybe Naruto finds out that Kurama lost his "dad," the Sage-of-the-6-paths. Naruto also lost his dad, maybe they can talk about it, or about their grief of being thought of as a monster, etc. and Naruto says something like "You've helped me in a lot of battles before. I'll help you in this one. I've gotten pretty strong myself you know, I'm not the same little kid who just kept using your power. We don't have to be friends, but let's kick this guy's ass!" Then they fight Madara.
... Or something else, whatever. I just feel it needed more. To the readers, the Kyuubi started off as just a huge mass of evil. So I think more transition was needed.
The Scroll stuff:
I don't exactly mind the fact that they randomly found a super-powerful scroll. I really couldn't care less...
Why were they there? Why would they look for Sasuke there? Why would they even care? Suigetsu wanting to "split apart Sasuke and Karin" is not a very satisfying answer. But the part that bugs me is that they just show up right where Sasuke is. How did they suddenly know where he was, after wandering so aimlessly? If they could find him with birds of what-not, they should've found him earlier. It's like this whole entire "War" is taking place within one city block!
If they were going to find the scroll, I would have preferred:
1) Some foreshadowing about it, so when it's actually found, we the readers can go "Woah, shit's gonna get real now!"
2) Some better reason for Suigetsu even caring about giving it to Sasuke, where he actually gets something out of it.
3) A better reason for them to be in the hideout, like getting power-ups for themselves to be less useless
I think that whole part really could have used more. That was a good opportunity to expand Suigetsu's and Juugo's characters into people who the readers actually give a shit about, and who might harbor some resentment for Sasuke for... you know, leaving them to die... making them actually seem like more than totally flat characters.
The Obito stuff:
I don't mind Tobi being Obito, it was pretty obvious (in my opinion) that Tobi was Obito...
Why the mess with Madara? I realize that it may have been to cast doubt on his identity, but it went way overboard, with him even pretending to be Madara when no one else was around, simply for the benefit of the readers. The only reason I still thought it was Obito was because I had low expectations of the "Tobi Mystery." I figured it was Obito and that after it was revealed, we'd be shown the explanation, which might be good or bad.
What I would've liked:
1) Tobi to actually be a threatening villain. Zabuza, Orochimaru, Pain, Madara, are all more threatening. Tobi is just sort-of there.
2) Leave out the "I'm Madara" stuff and let him be his own villain
3) A better mystery about his identity.
For example when the Konoha group first fights Tobi, we could have had something like:
NARUTO: "Get outta the way, you cyclops bastard, we have to get to Sasuke!"
TOBI: "Sasuke's not coming back. Idiots who can't accept the harshness of reality are just trash."
NARUTO: "Maybe, but those who abandon their friends are worse than trash!"
TOBI: "Hahaha, what a joke! Ninjas who think like that don't live very long. Like your dad."
TOBI: "He couldn't kill me, let's see if you can!"
-- Tobi beats them to a pulp, like a villain should actually do! --
-- Tobi rushes towards one of the kids about to attack. --
-- Kakashi tries to use Kamui but it doesn't work --
-- Tobi severely wounds (kills? <3) the person --
TOBI: "How disappointing. Kakashi, you can't save anyone with that Sharingan. I think I'll take it off your hands. I do like to collect good eyes."
-- Zetsu shows up and interrupts. --
ZETSU: "It just ended, Sasuke won."
TOBI: "No way!!... Psych. As I expected. Lets go."
NARUTO: (face badly beaten) "Wait......."
TOBI: "Aww, you were a lot cuter as a baby. Don't die yet, though. I'll come for you soon."
... Or something, whatever. Just something.
Hopefully the explanations in the next few chapters will help improve this part, but I wish things had been handled a bit more smoothly.
Kishi writes the manga, so for practical purposes, he is god.
Unless you are suggesting that Suigetsu and Juugo are better than anyone at hunting and scouting, the only way possible for them to find Kabuto is through Juugo's animals.
Or they strumbled upon where the cave is, Juugo had another random rage fit, and punched the floor
They saw Sasuke abandoning them in a battlefield with a Samurai platoon and 2 Kages.Quote:
And even then, Sasuke during the fight with Raikage never cared about them one bit, all he wanted was to kill Raikage so they could get to Danzou. Again didn't you notice the difference between that Sasuke and the one who fought Bee?
He trusted him, so he will follow him forever regardless of what Sasuke will do and say?Quote:
I guess then all of Konoha will follow Naruto even if he rampages and kill them all, after all he gained their trust
Suigetsu lost all his uselfulness the moment Itachi died and Sasuke went ballistic, refusing to see that is plain blindness.
Also do reread the chapters, Suigetsu's motivation to find Sasuke and Karin is to get in their way and cut them apart, both literally and pratically
Flawlessy, might I addQuote:
Its not me that is stereotyping or generalizing Sasuke ( in your "burn the Kishi-haters heatens" mood you forgot to note that I was the first to point out the change between Hebi Sasuke, the one that fought Bee and the one that fought Danzou ), its the manga that confirms what I said:Quote:
Sasuke doesn't care one bit about Suigetsu, in the last chapters he said it himself to his face.
Unless that was Sasuke being an adorable tsundere