In the 479/480 chapters thread, a discussion about hatred and will of fire was starting.
Some people think that in this manga hatred brings more power than will of fire in fight (mainly because of "Sasuke unlimited power") and others don't.
In my opinion, Hatred did not achieve more amazing feats than Will of Fire in fight, nor outside the fight. Sasuke brought quite nothing, yeah he escaped death from Danzou with a full Susano'o, but Naruto did somehting similar in the past so...
Jdw thinks that hatred is more powerful or useful (if I understand well) in battle, that Will of Fire is just like a temporary boost while hatred is much more than that. Some examples : Lee fought while he was unconscious but he ended with bones shattered. Jiraya came back from the death for a few seconds in order to write the code on the back of Fukasaku, but he lost after all etc
So, what do you think ?
Well, hatred can make a person extremely powerful, more then the will of fire I belive. However, hatred clouds your thoughts and tempts you to pay any price only to achieve your goal. In the end, it will destroy you. A good example what ultimately happens if you draw your power out of hatred is the outcome of the fight between Anakin and Obiwan in Episode 3.
So in the end, the will of fire will prove itself superior.
So far in the manga, examples of the will of fire have not been as useful as the examples of hatred. I am not saying hatred will always prove to be more powerful. Kisame123 posted saying that they were basically similar, wondering why people view the hatred differently from the Will of Fire, and I think they are similar in that they are motivating factors, but they are not similar in their reach and results, so far.
Sasuke's hatred has changed the outcomes of his own battles. It has allowed him to excel and proceed where others would have lost or died. The examples used by some of the will of fire were Lee fighting while unconscious, and Jiraiya willing himself back to life. The Will of Fire in those instances did not change the battle outcomes for Lee or Jiraiya. Both lost. Lee was still battered and broken. Jiraiya still died. Neither pulled off a miraculous victory or overcame intense jutsu and fought on like nothing happened at all.
The Will of fire has added some drama to battles in most cases, but Sasuke's hatred seems to be far more potent than that. It has become a force of its own to be reckoned with, and changes outcomes far beyond what the will of fire has done.
My earlier analogy stated that the Will of Fire is like drinking a Red Bull, and that Sasuke's power of hatred is like the power of the Hulk, which grows greater as the anger (hatred) of the Hulk grows greater. It seems to know no bounds.
Last edited by jdw; January 23, 2010 at 11:19 AM.
Will of Fire is not something really temporary, it something that bring something powerful in a medium or long term, a kind of delayed jutsu.
Lee and Jiraya fought an enemy who was too superior to them, it's like saying that despite your will you can't climb the Everest all by yourself. So even with hatred they would loose.
No one could beat Pain anyway, with all the hatred or will of fire during the fight, his loss is the result of the medium term effect of Jiraya's will of fire.
Lee just doesn't have the ability required to beat Garaa.
Sasuke, at least, had some viable tools to beat his past and present opponents.
In the end will of fire will outclass the hatred way.In the long way there is no comparisons.In the short way you can have a chance with it..
But remember sir, hate is not the answer!
It seems that's is for ladies.But JUST som great mind can understand how that is the men greatest attitude.
OMG.. I cant believe what I read.. And honestly I cant believe that I've read is posted by you.Quote:
Jiraiya sacrifice or better Jiraiya's death choice has been by far the crucial phase of the entire damned MANGA.[Even Ojiji-sama spoken about that..]
How do you can state that???
With his choice Jiraiya saved the whole world.. Like a famous cheerleader.. LOL
And pls bear in mind, Jiraiya-sama is the first one character in the manga which got entirely the sense of life.He hunderstood well the world problems.He addressed to himself the right ancestral questions (forgive my poor eng pls).But he got the answer just at the end of his life.
Without him we will never had Naruto.Or better.. THAT Naruto.The man will break the curse, that will make new all the things.
He revives in Naruto.And in my heart.
Think hard about that.Do you think Naruto nindou is a new thing?Quote:
Or it has ties with something so old?
It is something so old... Just a newer and original manner to explain us the Truth.
Men still arent ready for that.They should be already 2000 years ago..
But they arent yet... Still now.
It's all here.
But the day will come... Be faithful..
I think the explanation to this has already been given to us.
Kishimoto explained that in order to generate chakra, one must bond the mind and body. Not smartness and physical strength, but sincronizing your mind with your body makes more chakra. Naruto is pretty dumb, as mentioned since the beggining of the manga. However, he is a chakra powerhouse, partially because of living against Kyuubi's chakra, but partially also because he is an expontaneous person, his mind and body work alongside.
The anger is the same: a will on your mind moving towards your body completely, exposing your inside emotions integrally. That, imo, is a kind of mind-body union, a sort of chakra generation.
The same could be said about the Will of Fire, a capability of keeping your body by your mental will. It's a union of both. Using your body without a strong motive won't work, and having a motive but failing to act (sort of like Sai's psychological restrictions) won't do anything either.
The Will of Fire and the Hatred are mental motivations that break through and manifest physically on the body, the real deals, and that should generate a ton of chakra, due to the intensity of these emotions, the effect they have on the mind and body both.
Of course, this is MY interpretation. ^^
Naruto was able to defeat Gaara after he realized that protecting his friends was important. What's interesting is that Naruto was not able to defeat Gaara with intelligence, but only after he fought to protect his friends without any logic. Although Naruto usually draws on kyuubi chakra, this was not indicated in this chapter. there are distinct characteristics Naruto takes on when drawing external chakra, when the eyes turn red with slits with red chakra. however, this wasn't the case in the chapter I provided above. This was the "will of fire" and it was specifically referenced in the chapter. This was not some minute increase in power, it was very significant as witnessed by Sasuke and again, in congruence to the theme of protecting people in that chapter. The chapter narration stresses that willingness to protect on the same page I linked earlier.
( http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/133/15/ )
Whereas, Sasuke's "hatred" was only attributed to strength during this fight with Danzou and even that has debatable circumstances. "hatred" was only introduced in the Kage fights-when Sasuke charged at the Raikage"-but it wasn't seen as something directly giving him strength. Madara mentioned that "hatred" is Sasuke's nindo, ally, and gives him strength in the sense that it drives him to become stronger.
nonetheless, nobody was complaining about hatred being a "hax" or giving him strength at that time. this was necessary as I've argued before, that "hatred" as a anti-ideology to the "will of fire" needed to be introduced. therefore, these really isn't enough to suggest that Sasuke continously uses "hatred" as a factor that changes the outcome of battles, I think the "will of fire" still holds that title. maybe if there are two or three more fights where it is obviously clear, I might agree, but for the chapter you are referring to, it is debatable.
"hatred" is only a "hax" because you make it out to be and because people constantly post on the subject, we are easily misled into thinking this as well. however, in context of the manga, it is nothing except motivation and Sasuke's nindo, just as the "will of fire". I don't criticize the "will of fire" nor do I do the same with "hatred" because they are in essence, just encouraging ideologies that provide motivation which is the best force multiplier for any soldier as they say in the military. who better to use that ideology of hatred against, than Danzou the main reason for Sasuke's problem?
Last edited by kisame123; January 23, 2010 at 12:56 PM.
Hatred vs Will of fire.
Hatred wins, easily.
And it's not because Kishi thought about such comparisons - if he thought about it, we would have seen more equilibrium between hatred and will of fire.
It's because, in Part 2, he hyped/overpowered Sasuke at the expense of everyone else. Sasuke's method - hatred - was depicted as being FAR more efficient at making one stronger or allowing one to win battles than the will of fire or anyhing else.
Proof - Sasuke's and Naruto's evolution throughout all of part 2.
naruto's sage mode (which is not detrimental for him) comes from his determination, his determination stems from his will to protect those he holds dear and sage mode easily pwns amaterasu (same with raikage - speed) while rasen-shuriken will easily pwn susanoo (if danzo did partially damage it just imagine what naruto will do haha). again through speed naruto will evade tsukuyomi
sasuke's MS powers come from his determination, his determination stems from his will to kill every goddamn person in the world without any apparent reason, and don't give me the ravange crap (what samurai also had part in uchuha massacre? lol). Sasuke's powers gained through hatred are SELF-DETRIMENTAL, he will go blind, and even if he takes itachi eyes, susanoo will still take its toll!!!!
I thought I have made myself clear before.I'll be now more explicit.
The central point is not save yourself.The central point is give yourself, your life to your neighbour (love your neighbour as yourself).That's all.
Love has his opposite into egoism.Not hatred.
Hatred originates listening our ego.Becouse we are all EGO slaves.
If JUST we could give up our ego way...
Hatred will be nullified in no time.And If we will be able to ignore our instinctive ego voice...
The difficulty is here.It has its origin in our animal instinct, in our instinct of self-preservation but it can be defeated listening our heart and our conscience.Yeah..
The conscience... The ability to make things according the Truth...
That's why we are "sapiens".
Last edited by benelori; August 13, 2010 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
The Will of Fire vs Hatred, it is like the Light Side and the Dark Side. Hell they're practically the same in aspects. And no, neither are stronger than the other.
For example, Hatred has allowed Sasuke to master techniques and get stronger in a short amount of time. That's true. But that's the quick and easy path. And it has been proving to be a backlash for him-he's draining his life force more quickly with his complete Susano'o, as well as the eye bleeding and blindness. Like the use of the Dark Side changes a person's appearance (skin color to pale and sickly, eyes to evil yellow), Sasuke's hatred is irrevocably changing his appearance and vision.
Naruto's Will of Fire is slower, but no less strong than Sasuke's hatred. However, the Will of Fire path is more rewarding. It doesn't damage your body. It gives you true strength. It can make you enlightened. Naruto discovered this during his battle with Gaara. The Will of Fire made him stronger. Just like the Light Side.
So no, neither are stronger than the other. Hatred is just more quick and easy than pure hard work or protecting people.
dont say this to me
hatred doesnt make you aawaken baby susanoo and then master it and become the best susanoo user 30 mins later
there is no hatred or will of fire there is will of kishimoto masashi that is above all
what the heck is sage mode? deva real wasnt even fighting and once he gained his power back , the fight ended few seconds later
naruto survived that fight only because pain wanted him alive , but the raikage (oh raikage) wanted sasuke dead and so does danzou but hatred (like if the raikage or danzou have no hatred) beaen them
look at what did sasuke when he was sealed by danzou ! he should have lost the fight , but hatred .... it just works like a pvp trinket in wow
Last edited by tousendrinksbleach; January 23, 2010 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Hatred isn't stronger, tousen. As I explained in my post, its quick and easy, while the Will of Fire is slow and steady. And slow and steady ultimately wins the race.Quote: