well at least that's in the anime, not sure if that would work in the manga.
also how would Oni return RAI? echizen saw BJK , he could avoid it and intentionally miss it.
@eiji , please refresh my memory, i read the posts i'm not sure which post number u are referring to?
Last edited by ashore; October 06, 2012 at 09:24 PM.
Echizen's highest potential is that he can evolved and deal with ANY kind of opponents. Do you seriously think Echizen would lost this match? If you do, reread PoT.
Echizen at the very least is very heavily implied to find out some way to deal with Rai (although it was show offscreen) when he was fighting Sanada when he was losing memories. He will find a way to win in this match, no doubt about it.
Last edited by -Ken-; October 06, 2012 at 09:21 PM.
Why would I read it again? If Ryoma is gonna win every single match JUST BECAUSE HE'S FREAKING ECHIZEN, then this tournament is useless and I'm wasting my time answering this.
we're still waiting on Kaoz to see if muga no kyouchi can be used. IF not ryoma is toast.
here's a question is returning a heavy powerful shot the same as producing it????
with mUga, ryoma could copy Tanishi's big bang. Yukimura said, its the same strong shot but too simple.
but not sure if ryoma could return the big bang w/o muga. muga seems to grant extra strength from other super moves.
this would allow ryoma to use Kintarous super mountain shot vs ONI
Last edited by ashore; October 06, 2012 at 09:36 PM.
Copied moves are still subject to your original strength. It's obvious Kintaro has way higher physical strength (his max output in national semi final is above Hado 108) so if Ryoma copied a power-based move it'd be less effective. How less effective? Nobody knows the answer to that but we can see that whenever Ryoma copied Big Bang it doesn't bust the racket of whoever he's playing against. It's probably a combination of both his opponent tend to be pretty strong and that he has much lower strength. For the most part it looksl ike his opponents (Atobe and Yukimura) didn't even need anything beyond a normal hit to return it. One can argue their tech might be so high it's built into a normal rally but I got the feeling it's saying they can simply return it with sheer strength due to the fact that Ryoma has a lowish strength rating.
I don't see BJK busting Ryoma's racket but it'll at least put him in a disadvantageous situation. It's common to see someone return something but end up having to lob it and then the other guy smash it. Of course Ryoma has own share of moves to use too, but none of those seem to be anything that'd bother a 10 baller (Samurai Drive would be totally useless against a 10 baller). Just BJK does not seem sufficient looking at the move matchup but since Oni's been revealed to have power above the BJK while Ryoma has not yet been shown with any move that'd be considered high tier in the 10-baller level, Oni has the advantage here.
I do not think it's fair to say "well if it happened in the manga then Ryoma always wins because he's the main character" because then the discussion is entirely meaningless. Of course Ryoma won't lose in the manga but that's just because of the story. It's actually pretty ironic since to fully realize TnK you got to be able to accept that fact that you can get spanked since the 'have fun' criteria comes ahead of winning, so in theory the fact that Ryoma never loses should prevent him from ever learning TnK since he certainly does everything to avoid losing, which is missing the point that 'have fun' is the most important part in realizing TnK.
well unless ryoma get to use muga, he stand no chance.
Oni is near the level of tokugawa and the #2 of Genius 10.
And I dont think ryoma can even play at the same level as tokugawa or oni , again unless he has muga.
Regular Muga is useless because unless Ryoma went and watched some games from G1-4 whatever move he use is just going to fail by the virtue of being an inferior move against the G5. Muga is subject to your original strength so even if he copied Duke Homerun there's no way he can blow Oni away. Muga might enhance your stats in some way but it doesn't turn a guy who is never known for his strength into Duke. I guess Shuuji or Ryoga might have some super awesome moves that's not dependent on strength but that's purely speculation at this point. Of course if you do that just go watch a game of pro playing live in the world of POT and then you should be able to spank everyone below the pro level.
Door #1 can be defeated by normal rallies (there's nothing meaningful to double on a regular hit). Can he do a double return on BJK? Maybe, maybe not, but Oni has BJK+ level power so he should be able to return a double BJK. From the Tezuka versus Kabaji game we can see that the doubling effect doesn't go on forever (otherwise whenever either of them misses a rally the ball will have 2^(number of rallies) power and that should easily be able to kill everyone), and that Tezuka was losing due to Kabaji having superior endurance/strength. That implies as long as the enemy can return the double powered shot, the physically weaker player eventually takes damage from the stronger player's power shots. It's pretty obvious Oni's strength is high enough to cause damage to Ryoma. Maybe not just outright bust his racket since Ryoma has improved, but it'd play out like Tezuka versus Kabaji which would be:
Oni uses BJK
Ryoma double return
Oni hits the double BJK back
Ryoma can only return this normally at this point, and returning this shot would cause damage as double BJK level is way above his strength (this is based on the fact that Kabaji versus Tezuka stopped at 4X power, rather than 2^(number of rallies) power)
Door #2 is kind of useless against superior opponents because you'd just see a lot of different ways you're about to get owned.
Echizen lost to Kazuya, who is either equal or worse than Oni. Oni wins.
I'm inclined to agree with Kaoz that Echizen no longer uses Muga and he may not even possess Hyakuren or Saiki anymore.
The way I see the match is that, going by Mifune's speech, Echizen can return BJK as he has 10 at Once, but Echizen's lack of any useful techniques at this stage ultimately means that Oni will outlast him and if Oni pulls out a new tech, such as Black Tomahawk, he will eventually overwhelm Echizen at this point in the game.
Oni wins 6-3.
Ryoma is a relatively new face to the 10-ball club so there's no reason to assume he has better base stats than a long established member of the 10-ball club, Oni.
Now in POT special moves trump pretty much everything else if your special move is good enough, but we know Ryoma's existing moves are pretty much all garbage tier (he's always borrowing other people's moves). Samurai Drive is vastly inferior to even 5-ball let alone 10-ball.
I'm inclined to say he still has all the Muga and doors minus TnK which is more like a plot device power. But regular Muga is useless because Muga cannot copy power (he's not going to turn into Duke just because he uses Duke Homerun), and nobody ranked above Oni has ever shown a non power move. Any existing moves he can use with Muga will obviously just be totally useless against Oni.
I went back and checked the Tezuka vs Kabaji game, it seems to imply you can only apply the double effect once, because the rallies always look like:
Kabaji hits something at 1X Kabaji power
Tezuka returns it at 2X Kabaji power
Kabaji returns it at 4X Kabaji power
After that, we see no further detail, but we know Tezuka started dropping games and we see various people saying this is going to be bad for Tezuka if they continue like this. So it's clear you can't just keep on apply more doubling effects on the ball (otherwise there's no reason why Tezuka would drop any games in this state). Now Ryoma has improved but his inability to return power moves is fairly well-chronicled (in terms of per move basis, Big Bang scored more points off Ryoma than any other move), so you'd assume Black Jack Knife ought to put him in a difficult position if he attempted to return it normally. So if Oni can return 2X his own power then he has no chance of losing, because Ryoma will not be able to put the doubling effect on the 2X BJK. In fact given the difference in strength between the two, you'd think Oni can just hit like 60% power BJK, which Ryoma still needs to return with a doubler, and then he can just hit it back at 1.2X power and Ryoma will have to drop that point as he used up as free return and he clearly lacks the power to return it outright.
The revised info showing Oni can go above BJK power level really helps him a lot. Without it, we don't really know if Oni can return >100% BJK level power since that could be his limit. Note the numbers are actually quite tight, because Oni consistently said '60% is enough for middle schoolers', which puts the maximum doubling power to 120% of whatever move Oni uses (presumably he always opens with BJK), and since he can go above BJK level, this is something he should be able to manage.
My guess is eventually it'll be revealed that Ryoma's basic moves magically works on the top tier characters again after he can hit 10-ball, but until this information is available, Ryoma just can't win due to his basic moves are far too inferior to be of use.
Last edited by Phantron; October 07, 2012 at 01:57 AM.
Muga is definitely fair game. I don't think it will do him any good, but edited it in.
I think Hyakuren's moveable aura plus double return would be a problem for Oni. Echizen could handle Oni's next level of BJK after some games, I just don't see Ryoma losing this match. He is the kind of guy who constantly evolves in every match, against the stronger opponents and in critical situations. He doesn't stand a chance at the start of Shin, but right now he can hold his ground and probably defeat Oni, don't forget about POT, Ryoma won't give up and evolve.
Echizen will win this no matter what, 6-4 or 7-5, even if Oni becomes serious, Echizen with Hyakuren, Saiki, plus his improvements we have yet to see from Mountain training wins.