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The manga made that especially clear. It's not debatable.
The rest of your post is pointless & stinks of repetition (It's something I've already explained long ago).
Last edited by Kay3795; January 26, 2013 at 11:02 AM.
Not going to argue with the superiority thing again. We did it a million times already.
You view the Bleachverse as if it already exists and use your perspective to change the outcome of fights, I suppose. Regardless of how bad they did against Kenpachi (same goes for other SR that were defeated), the outcome doesn't change, without using deduction and logic, which re-makes the manga in a different way, I believe.
Judging by his character, if Kenpachi says it wasn't that easy, it was definitely like hell for anyone else.
You keep saying Letzt Stil is inferior and I keep saying the power difference of the two wasn't stated. Until then, all remains as a fact is Letzt Stil is inferior due to because of its fragility.
Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. Everyone else is going to die in a second? That's just your evaluation of the situation. Not a fact by any means.
Anyway, Torran, I'm tired of your temporary this, temporary that attitude. Normally, I could delete those parts of your post since you are openly calling out a user (me in this case), but in order to keep my objectivity, I cannot do such a thing.
Keep enjoying the forums and take care.
Well, we at MH don't impose our opinions on other members. Everybody is entitled to their opinions and even if I sometimes don't agree with other members, I respect their opinions and their right to express them. "I know the best" kind of attitude isn't welcome here and it certainly makes a healthy discussion impossible. I won't debate whether or not the characters you mentioned were inferior to their opponents, it's outside the scope of this topic. I'll just say I strongly disagree with your interpretation and I still maintain the idea that if a character gets fodderized, then it means that character is most likely a weakling compared to his opponent.
I need to emphasize that being defeated is different from being fodderized. When you get fodderized, your opponent makes short work of you with little effort, no tricks or sneak attacks. Among many examples, Yamamoto fodderized Allon and Driscoll, Ichigo fodderized Domino, Isshin fodderized GF, Nnoitra fodderized Chad, Aizen fodderized Hitsugaya (in SS arc) and Kenpachi fodderized Giriko and these three SRs (perhaps except the last one), this is how I see it. I honestly don't care whether they were idiots or not because at the end of the day, they were still fodder as shown by the manga. If you have problems with the execution of the plot, I'm not the person who can solve them nor have any intention to do so. I get your point but I simply disagree and will disagree until the manga gives me reason to think otherwise.
1. Disregard long ranged and defensive abilities and jump towards a short range fighter.
2. Stand and talk forever, disregard defensive abilities.
3. Become a perfect imitation for a 50/50 chance of winning, disregard long ranged and defensive abilities.
Then yes, their strategy is flawed.
Vollstandig absorbs everything at a distance, not just from within reach.
---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------
I'm going to quote Aizen for this. If I explain the process at which I arrived to a conclusion and prove evidence and logical deduction while you keep using roundabout tactics and evasive responses to maintain your point then it simply means that your opinion is inherently inferior to mine.
If they died like idiots, then they were weaker than Kenpachi. Anyone who dies that easily is pretty weak whether you like it or not.
The question i keep asking myself is why JB called himLoyd Royd's R, if you take into consideration that neither was able to imitate appearances, then JB must of boosted their powers to give them that ability, or he cloned them both
Last edited by devstauk; January 26, 2013 at 08:25 PM.
The epitome of weakness.
See? I can use fallacies and twisted logic too!
If they were stronger htan Kenpachi, then Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to deal that kind of damage to them. It's like Dragon Ball Z, where someone like Krillin wouldn't have been able to hurt Frieza even if Frieza was being an idiot, due to difference in their power. The fact that Kenpachi was able to kill them without a problem, regardless of them being an idiot or not, proves they were weak. Bleach isn't Part I Naruto where power levels didn't matter.
If Kenpachi was as idiotic as the ones he killed were when he fought Ichigo part I, he'd still be strong because Ichigo still wouldn't have been able to wound him, at least at start of the fight. In this case, all that could have happened was that the idiots would have died later, but they'd have lost eventually.
sharpened reiatsu, something Ichigo often lacks the capacity to do. Quincies who are generally expert reiatsu manipulators shouldn't have a problem fighting Kenpachi at all.
So the Quincies were still weak because their own power was nowhere near Kenpachi's, without Blut Vene. I'm not incorrect here, considering the Quincy did get killed. If they were strong enough, Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to get such an easy win, which shows that without Blut Vene, they're much lower than Kenpachi in terms of strength.Quote:
Because they don't act like idiots. And these weaker characters got owned. The weaker characters that hurt stronger characters dont' get owned so quickly like that, they actually try to fight.Quote:
What details have I ignored? I'm not a freakin' Bleach otaku, SORRY. But my deduction isn't flawed, considering if they were good enough, they wouldn't have been killed that quickly or effortlessly. Look at Gohan vs. Cell. He was weaker than Cell but still survived Cell's onslaught before he finally snapped. Look at Krillin, he was so weak that Piccolo's henchman killed him without any problem, apparently.Quote:
Which is why Kenpachi is stronger, because he's smart and powerful. Who up to this point is still alive? Kenpachi. Who's not? Those Quincies he killed. Concept's not hard to get. The Quincies with Blut Vene may have been stronger, but the fact is, without it they're weaker than Kenpachi.Quote:
Then why, pray tell, they got killed?Quote:
I did. Bad memory on something that I read so casually, though.Quote:
But them being idiotic shows they're weak. In battles, you can't claim to be strong, and then be killed by your idiocy. That shows you're weak, at least mentally.
The details posted already on this thread, about how and why Kenpachi killed those three with ease.
The Quincies could have reacted to Zaraki before he cut them. If you guys are talking about who I think you are, then two Sternritters did attack Zaraki and were defeated. Basically, they weren't strong enough to beat him, even when one imitated his power.Quote:
No, I am not. That's the rule of nature. You're weak if you get killed by enemy, regardless of how strong you are. Ichigo can be stronger than Chad by miles, but if Chad manages to kill him because Ichigo gets too arrogant, then it shows Ichigo was weak all along.Quote:
Once again, if it's this, then they didn't die because of stupid decisions. Either way, they would not have been able to beat Zaraki because they can either defend or attack with Blut, not both. If they defend against Zaraki's attacks, then they'd probably survive, but they would not be able to wound him. If they did increase their attack power instead, then they'd have to make sure Zaraki gets incapacitated otherwise it's game over for them.Quote:
It does say enough about Kenpachi's strength in relation to the Quincies' strength if they managed to be killed so quickly. If the Quincies were strong enough, they could to some degree fight back.
According to Kenpachi, he didn't have an easy time killing the imitation, just the other two. He never commented on the ape or imitator's intelligence, just that the ape was too weak.Quote:
It's not like your deduction's any less flawed.Quote:
Once again, if you're talking about the ape, imitator, and the girl that Zaraki tore the throat of, it's shown that the ape did not have any skill or ability, and the imitator couldn't match Zaraki when he increased his power. Dunno about the girl. I haven't seen them fight, just where Zaraki mentions having fought them to Bach.
A Bleach reader is calling Dragon Ball bad? That's funny. If you were callin Dragon Ball Z bad, I could agree to an extent, but Dragon Ball is superior. However, we're off topic. And as I said, I'm not a Bleach fanboy that I'd remember every little thing or would bother rereading it over 5 times.Quote:
And your entire argument is based on your conception that the three who were killed were only killed because they were dicking around when Zaraki says he fought two of them. And how is the winner NOT stronger? Ichigo was stronger than Aizen when he won. Aizen was stronger than Gin when he killed him, despite the fact that Gin would have killed him if it weren't for Hogyoku.Quote:
The Blut? Even if they used it, it'd have been a waste without proper strategy because if they increase their power, they'd be cut by Zaraki easily. If they increased their defense, then they wouldn't be able to deal any kind of damage to Zaraki. It was lose-lose either way.Quote:
He was stronger, which is something you apparently agree with.Quote:
Didn't the imitator use his skill by imitating Zaraki? Or the ape guy by transforming into an ape?
I will spare some time:
All of which could have been used by one or more of those three, but we not really know of.
- Kirchenlied: Sankt Zwinger
- Vollständig and it's different uses
- Blue Vene/Arterie
Torran says they didn't use anything at all, the other side says they could have.
In the end Zaraki won all of these fights by using his skills, some of which he consciously didn't use to increase his "fun/purpose" of fighting. You might disagree with this, but that's what the mangaka has delivered. To reduce it all to idiocy of his enemies or pure luck is still ineffable.Originally Posted by Torran
---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------
Those three named are clearly more capable of fighting a strong oponent than those named secondly. All of them are within the 400-600/600 range of battle data. Those in the early 400/600 are definitely not as capable as those around 500/600, while those around 600/600 are the epitome of shinigami. Yeah some of the information is outdated[Yamamoto was a clear 100/100, making him the #1 shinigami] and the power scales are conceivably growing as the manga has reached a point the mangaka hasn't thought of in the past, but I'm obviously just presenting it to present the point. I won't mention the Vaizards, as they were mostly trivialized in the FKT arc, there to show off their bankai and some of their skills.
Aside from a couple mistakes because Kubo didn't reveal everything or had retconned stuff to work for the "then" plot, yes most of them look quiet accurate.Quote:
Are you dull, where did I state that they are above captain lvl or something like that? Stop putting things into my mouth MH's official Bleach smart ass #1. I'm sick of that attitude, as are most others that come to argue with you.
He and Ukitake were ready to clash with Yamamoto and likely had a chance to hinder him for some time, low tier captains like Komamura would very likely have not. His Zanpakatou has a the potential to inflict massive damage through concious usage of the different games. Yeah Genryuusei, you lying swine.Quote:
It's only you assumption that they would lose all that power once deactivated, maybe they are able to use the stored up energy once used again. Shunsui's opponent didn't seem to care for "absorption time" when he had gone into Vollständig to suprise him.Quote:
So would Yamamoto have ran around SS, turning every SR unconscious or at least knocking them away, while another fights starts, where those that have been knocked around have no reason or place to be, that would have turned your casuality counter to 16+? Oo Call it strawman, seem like you turn reality the way you want to win an argument.Quote:
Here is the fundamental difference between you and mean. I state and opinion as such, you do so by stating it as a fact. Have fun.Quote:
Not every shinigami captain is Mayuri. [Battle data: Top Right: Defense (70), Bottom Right: Mobility (40)] :OQuote:
So if Quilge was capable of holding back Ichigo, but Shaz was killed in one hit, but Ichigo would have caused some "deep shit" to Bach, if he was as full of stamina as in the first mentioned fight, where does that put Haschwald, who has shown Ichigo that is by far not ready to fight them? Where does that put all of the SR, all incredibly skilled, yet one half being incredibely stupid and uncapable of fighting a someone whom they can't steal their bankai from?
What makes me think so? Shunsui still being alive and running after 15+minutes of fighting a Quincy actually using Vollständig. There is absolutely no reason to think that he hadn't used it repeatedly, name me a single one.
Nonsense. Yamamoto is gone, the highest possible loss by a huge degree. Byakuya was rendered near-dead and uncapable of fighting, three other captains him uncluded lost their strongest asset. Those are huge losses, losing over a third of captains full battle potential. Stop with that Vollständig jabbering already. How about I won't reply to those statements, unless you can provide your claims to work for most SternRitter, or at least show evidence that nobody but mustache Quincy used in in the battle.Quote:
Yeah yeah, it is, sadly you can't accept the truth. I start to question your ability to differentiate your theories with hard facts.Quote:
Clearly not enough to hurt the CC. You mean attacks like this, which Shigekuni swatted away like a mere fly? Good one.Quote:
Every other attack != Ryujin Jakka. Also Royd > Discroll by a huge margin, don't even care what you think about this, but that's what was shown.Quote:
If the Bankai isn't influenced by BA or BV/the Quincy using it, than Discroll had no reason to go into BA mode, none at all. But ignore all that, what exactly did stop him from activating BV, while Yamamoto had the time to shout: "Certainly not something of this level!" Suprise alone? If yes, than he clearly had not earned a title such as Sternritter.
At the very least, yeah. He killed the average amount of Shinigami fodder, nothing impressive, as Äs Nodt and the girl had killed dozens at once too. Anybody only capable of less would not be worth fighting the captains to begin with.Quote:
Still nowhere near his full potential.Quote:
Quote:You've got to come to terms with what you want. If any captain but the CC was irrelevant, than who had to die? What did you want to adress in the beginning? Any direct evidence or recorded talk between Kubo and his editors back that claim up? It just shows that the captains were capable of holding some SternRitter back, like the Rose or Hitsugaya encounter. You don't think those five new Shinigami will do all the work from now, do you? The Quincy might still outnumbe the Shinigami by a bit, so nearly everybody is needed again.Quote:
It's a damn shounen manga with lot's of "perfect" match-up fights due to the number of different abilities. Do you want this manga to turn something it has never been?Quote: