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Why did the Roar jump at Kenpachi despite being a long range fighter?
---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------
Different tier, above captain level, you are essentially saying that they are a level above.Quote:
By the way, in that page Yamamoto was comparing them to their older selves and reminiscing of his admiration towards them. "Unbeatable" and all that is not meant to be taken seriously, especially when they get their ass kicked all the time. They were the best of their time and grew up to become good captains.
Quilgue had lost Vollstandig and he still had energy left, but it was going to disappear. And it makes sense. Vollstandig pushes a Quincy beyond the limits. If Vollstandig is deactivated, the Quincy returns to its limit so all that excess energy has to go. It might have been possible to retain some of it like Quilgue for a short time, but not forever.
You see the difference? If I build my claim based on solid empirical evidence, then it becomes a bit more factual than an opinion. It's this simple. If I say something is because I have a reason to believe it, and will back it up if challenged.
It wasn't even a valid response from you to begin with, and now that I answered to it for fun you are arrogantly using it as a weapon. Don't get clever here, you troll.Quote:
Have you seen those IMMENSE sound effects? That means a Bankai that controlled thunder was LOUD:
But anyway, in case Driscoll stopped using lightning there since it's not very clear, it was still a surprise attack, because he thought he had won. Yamamoto didn't even have to move from his spot, just raise his arm and the fire did the rest. And you say that getting surprised makes him unworthy, even though everyone including Yamamoto gets attacked by surprise at one point or another.
I cannot NOR will I try to fathom the midset of individuals thinking Bleach being about power lvls but hey lets hear why you think it's so.
.Since you think It's "power lvls" what do you think would happen to Yukio (fullbringer) if he fought Byakuya, Toshiro & Zaraki at the sametime when they are already trapped in a different plane in his pocket dimension. Surely they would be able to all escape by FORCING the dimension to break according to you correct?
.Since you think it's power lvls, why did Ichigo hurt Zaraki in his first encounter (before connecting with Zangestu to receive a boost). Why was he able to cut him with his sharp blade?
.Since you think it's power lvls based, why is it so that Ichigo (despite having roughly the same "power lvl" as Aizen) wasn't able to crush Grimmjow like Aizen did when he clash with Grimmjow?
.Since you think it's power lvls, why did Tousen lose against Komamura & Hisagi despite having the greater "power lvl"?
.Since you think it's power lvls, do you think Zommari would lose against Zaraki because Zaraki defeated Nnoitra who had more "power lvl" than Zommari?
There are many parts I want to address concerning your post BUT FIRST, I will like a solid factual explanation to the questions above because at this point I'm puzzled as to how you think it's power lvl (reiatsu) based.
Last edited by Kay3795; January 27, 2013 at 05:15 PM.
Of course it's not enough, since there are other factors to a battle, but the thing is that those factors count only if the opponents are somewhat on the same level...if there's someone who is just a lot stronger, then that person will win
With Kenpachi it's the same...when he puts his huge reiatsu to good use, he is pretty much unstoppable, but the problem is that he just like to prolong fights...he could've oneshotted all his enemies so far, if it wasn't for his sick mind...except Bach or Bach clone or whatever...
But as it was said...this is shounen manga, so many things aren't happening as they could or should have
Anyway the power lvl (reiatsu) topic is greatly misunderstood by many.
To make best us of reiatsu, one must first have control of it. If someone masters that control then they can use even the most little amount to do the most incredible things because reiatsu becomes more potent. This is one of the reasons why Ichigo (despite having as much reiatsu as Aizen in the arrancar arc) couldn't outright crush the espadas in a clash of swords. Zaraki also falls in the same category as Ichigo.
Even if control is perfected, to achieve maximum potential, one would benefit greatly if the reiatsu is reinforced by the fighting power of bankai. i.e Say you have a bankai & your bankai is power/strength based like Komamura's. In a clash of swords against an opponent whose zanpakuto isn't power/strength based. Inspite having equal reiatsu as well as control as your opponent, since your zanpakuto's reinforces your power/strength, you will become the victor in a clash.
Zaraki doesn't have good control over his huge reiatsu NOR the fighting power of bankai.
Ichigo in arrancar arc was a special case. It was Ulquiorra who noted the great difference between highs and lows in Ichigo's reiatsu. It was oscillating.
With Kenpachi, it's not the same case. He's emitting whatever he has at all times if he doesn't use the eye-patch, so, these two are different cases.
From the first DAY Ichigo was a shinigami till this day, Ichigo's hasn't learned proper control (The track he creates when travelling between worlds should tell ya that).
However, against an opponent that has the battle experience of Bach, it just won't be enough (since Royd had his memories copied).
But Aizen said it right...battles between shinigami are battles of reiatsu...of course not just amount, but control as well, so I never argued the control part...but when someone is just way to powerful, then control doesn't really matter...Zaraki has lousy control right? But I bet he can still beat Madarame...that's just one example...Aizen provided a few more as well..
This thread is still going? I'll just copy paste my analysis from another forum. I still haven't read any of the recent pages because they just look like a lot of arguing.
Anyway after analysing the events carefully I think it becomes obvious that is was the real Juha Bach who defeated Kenpachi.
Some people told me that Juha could not have slipped away during the SR attack because it was only 1 second. This is what I said to them:
Last edited by DraMas26; January 29, 2013 at 02:49 PM.
^Some interesting points, but a few things...
We don't really know how those pillars of fire are created, whether it's by Bach or by the Stern Ritter themselves (which I think is more likely). It's possible that it's a function of the Sun Gate, but we don't know how the gate works. I suppose it is notable that Bach entered from above whilst the SR emerged from the fire pillars, but since Royd's whole purpose during the invasion was to impersonate Bach, there's no reason he shouldn't have taken Bach's form before even leaving Vandenreich's palace. The real Bach could have entered SS covertly whilst Royd took his place on the front lines.
Also, the advantage Royd has over Lloyd is that he perfectly mimics memories and personality, which makes him the ideal one to take Bach's place. He had all the memories of Bach forming his plan and copying his personality meant he would act with a perfect replication of Bach's judgement, making him suited to giving out orders if necessary. It also meant he could interact with Kenpachi as a SWP and deal with him in exactly the way Bach would have done himself, so Bach wouldn't have to worry about any mistakes being made in his absence.
You've got a point, it is possible that Bach switched places with Royd in the instant Yama was distracted by the 3 SR, but I don't think it's the case. Meeting Aizen seemed to be a priority for Bach, otherwise why even bother with the decoy scheme? So it would make more sense for Bach to go there immediately, rather than hanging around in Seireitei waiting for an opportunity to switch with Royd. Also, Given that Muken, as we now know, is an endless dimension, it makes sense that it would take Bach the entire length of the invasion to actually track Aizen down. But logically, waiting to trade places with a decoy in the middle of Seireitei rather than having the decoy take his place from the start risks blowing the whole scheme before it's even been effective. What if someone saw them? It makes more sense to have Royd use his ability when they're still in their own territory.
As for why Royd was so much more powerful than other SR...
Bach evidently has some level of control over the strength of his subordinates' Blut. So it's possible he strengthened Royd specifically for battle with Yama. This way his decoy has the strength Lloyd can copy, as well as the memories and personality Royd copies, making him a better mimic of Bach than just one or the other.
I'm quite confident the pillars of blue reishi fire is a unqiue abiltiy that Bach only has. This is because the only time we see it happen is when he's around. First is when he uses them to allow the SR to enter into SS.
The next time he uses it is when he blows up Division 1 HQ:
It's exactly the same as those pillars when Bach first entered SS. Bach used it to anger Yama so he could egg him into going Bankai again. No other SR has shown to have the ability to use them so I think it's strongly implied that the blue pillars of reishi fire is an ability of Bach.
It's true that Royd perfectly copies memories and personality but like I said earlier that would mean he knows everything about Juha. Everything. Would someone like Juha who believes he's superior to most of his subordinates want someone like Royd to find out about the deepest most darkest secrets of his life? I don't think so.
Remember when Yama bought back those dead Quincies. Royd, impersonating Bach, had tears in his eyes as he had to fight through them:
This means that Juha, contrary to recent cases, did care about some of his subordinates. He cared about them so much that he would start crying if he had to fight through their skeletons. I don't think Juha would want anyone to find out about that. It's too personal.
That's why I think it's more likely Juha's plan was ot originally use Loyd and only use Royd as backup. Sure Royd's acting skills were great but he only needed to impersonate Juha for a short amount of time. It's not like he had to impersonate him for months and needed to know everything about him so acting wasn't a top priority. Plus this battle was against Yama who's super strong. Survivng is a higher priority in order to fool Yama because even if Yama figures out he's fighting a fake he still has to finish his battle before he goes to deal with the real Juha. Combine this with how Loyd was positioned close to Juha on the battlefield (assuming Juha created the pillars of Blue Reishi fire which I believe is the most likely case). I think it's more likely Loyd was originally supposed to impersonate him. Royd seemed more like a backup plan and that can be supported by how Juha congratulated him on doing well when he returned. Juha said he did well because originally it was his brother who was supposed to do the job because he would be able to replicate his powers. Royd could only rely on his own powersto survive so i owuld have been mroe difficult for him.
Also another thing is why did Juha want to talk with Aizen? He wanted to talk with Aizen because he's a SWP and he wanted to recruit him. Same with Ichigo who Bach wants to recruit himself. Juha seems to want to personally propose to them. I mean wouldn't the easier scenario be to get Royd to copy him and go see Aizen but instead Juha went himself which doesn't make much sense because it would make more sense for him to stay on the battlefield and help exterminate the Shinigami. It seems Juha wants to recruit all the SWP (probably to combat the RG IMO) so I don't see why he would leave Kenpachi to his double since Kenpachi is a SWP.
As for the risk of switching on the battlefield, I don't think there was much of a risk. The VR were overwhelming the Shinigami and obviously any Shinigami near Bach was going to get killed. The only one who stood a chance aginst him was Yama so as long as he had Yama distracted it shouldn't be hard for him to make the switch.
As for the blut vene strengthening, if blut venes could be strengthened so easily I don't see why Juha wouldn't do it to all the SR. Like I don't see why some SR would get the privelage of having stronger Blut than others by as far as how much it can improved upon. It makes more sense for Bach to give the same boost in Blut Vene to all the SR assuming he can (there's nothing to suggest he can't atm) as all the SR were going to help invade SS.
Regarding the pillars of fire, Bach didn't enter through them. Instead he came himself to SS. This is odd considering how Baach loves chatting with Haschwalt all the time. Since Haschwalt used the pillars of Blue reishi fire to enter and Bach didn't then I think it strongly suggests the pillars of blue reishi fire was an ability of Bach. I mean why else did Bach come alone to SS without his troops and then conjure some pillars of Blue Reishi fire? I mean we later saw that Haschwalt had exited the pillar that was next to Bach and started talking to him. Don't you find that redundant if Bach and Haschwalt could have jsut entered SS together via the pillars of Blue Reishi fire?
Whether Bach actually knew about the full ability Yama's Bankai is debatable. Yama stated he didn't ever reveal it and that's why his Bankai apparently couldn't be stolen. However the fact that Bach could steal it and teased Yama about bringing his men back suggests he already was aware of whatever Yama's Bankai could do. After all I doubt Bach had time or a way to observe Yama's battle iwth Royd when he was in Muken.
It's true that Aizen is crafty but doesn't it then make more sense to send Royd after him? After all you bypass craftiness with mind and mentality. Something that Royd could get. It's not like Aizen could fight. He was chained up and even Bach was surprised when he later found out that Aizen messed with his senses however he didn't expect that to happen as he clearly said he had no idea how Aizen messed up his perception of time. But since Bach was stronger than Royd and Royd could have easily copied Bach's mind and mentality wouldn't it make mroe sense for himself ot beat up Kenpachi (especially with the reveal of his bailtiy in the latest chapter) and send Royd after Aizen?
Well yeah the chance of being seen switching was slim but there was a greater chance of Bach being seen going to Muken while there was another Bach on the battlefield. Yet Bach still took that chance so I don't see why he wouldn't risk the switch being seen. I mean if the plan was to use Loyd all along then it wouldn't be too much of a risk because Yama still has to get past Loyd before he can go after the real Bach.
I don't think the pillars of blue fire were actually used to enter sereitei. I mean, the pillars were not a factor earlier when the war was declared. More so, while not as extreme as in SS the blue fire was also seen during the HM invasion of the quincy. I would argue the purpose of the fire is limited to releasing reishi so that the quincy have more of it available to use while fighting. Back when ishida and chad went to hueco mundo ishida showed something very interesting. He was unable to attack his huge enemy arrancar because the arrancar was hogging all the reishi in the air for his own attacks. In this regard the quincy do compete with each other for reishi in some scenarios. Over saturating the environment with reishi ensures that quincy don't have to compete with each other and it helps the quincy maintain top form in combat. Overall I would think the quincy and juhabach went into SS independently of the blue fire. Rather they started the fires after they got there. They entered SS the same way we have seen them move earlier, with the shadow thing. Perhaps more importantly, the fire did not seem to play a role in the quincy leaving SS, that was just the shadows.
Well yeah the chance of being seen switching was slim but there was a greater chance of Bach being seen going to Muken while there was another Bach on the battlefield. Yet Bach still took that chance so I don't see why he wouldn't risk the switch being seen. I mean if the plan was to use Loyd all along then it wouldn't be too much of a risk because Yama still has to get past Loyd before he can go after the real Bach.[/QUOTE]
Well, we don't know how Bach infiltrated the 1st Division barracks and Muken. His subordinates managed to step into Yamamoto's office with no trouble, so it seems they have a means of getting places unseen. With all that was going on in Seireitei at the time, sneaking around might not have been difficult at all.