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...a pure titan.
The beast Titan is not grisha either. Grisha knew what 3dmg was. Grisha knew what there language was, not just guessing. Grisha knew that humans knew that the neck was the weak spot. Grisha had a horse when he left. Grisha was headed inwards, while that came from the outside. I'm pretty sure grisha wouldn't allow that guy to die like that.
Point is: it's not effing grisha. No matter how much we want it to be.
Grisha certainly had a horse and headed inward *before* Maria fell, but those facts are irrelevant. These also aren't the terms on which he was last seen. He was "acting strange" ever since Carla's death according to Eren too (i.e. not like other spouses/family who were left behind or there wouldn't have been any point mentioning it). When he was last seen he had taken his son into the woods (presumably within Wall Rose) to inject him with something and then disappeared. He may have fled outside the walls after that. (Alternatively his son may have eaten him after initially going titan and he probably wouldn't be the beast titan in that case, heh. )
You might do better to point out that a normal life span (assuming he would age normally) for Grisha would be too short to span back to before 3dmg was invented (80 years or so I think? I have to check again), so that the beast titan wouldn't have had a chance to see it on his own before entering "hibernation." THAT is probably the weakest aspect of the theory; an explanation is needed on how this gap of years would be spanned, not so much the gap in knowledge.
Last edited by kannazuki; October 12, 2013 at 06:44 AM.
Mmm I still believe your only viable explanation is memory loss and split personality. That would be the only thing to prove its grisha. But to me that wipes out every bit of reason that we have; and not in the good way that isayama normally does. Could you imagine if it was grisha? "Oh btw grisha is the biggest bad and he does horrible things to humanity; because he has memory loss".
He was acting weird after the death of his wife. So was Eren; but when Eren pictured his mother die, his thoughts were: "must kill all titans" even with the so called "Titan memory loss/ distortion". So naturally, if grisha was to transform angrily due to his wife's death, I would assume he would also be thinking "kill all the titans". Not to mention, he went and turned Connie's entire village into titans; the exact things that killed his wife. In addition to the "memory loss theory" and him being irregular; you compare it to a mindless Titan, of which the beast Titan certainly is not. He is one smart cookie!
I really don't see this as strongly viable. Too many supporting pieces are thrown together to fit. Yes at this point it's not impossible, but with an anime like this, very few things are. I could say grisha is an alien; and the spaceship came to get him and that's why he's not here. It's not impossible, but I really hope no one takes that to heart.
I'm just putting up debate, not trying to judge or be rude in anyway. Just want to mention that
Also, grisha headed inwards while that came from outside. From what we know the exit was blocked off ; it would be so difficult to actually get outside to where that guy came from. If grisha was in human form, that is. I only see two ways to cross the walls: 3dmg or beast Titan. And I think beast Titan would have been spotted. That is unless there is like a secret exit; again, no one can prove or disprove that. But if there was a secret exit that grisha used, he would have been conscious of it and knew what he was getting himself into.
There is still the fact of how that beast Titan said "hmm, well it seems you have some idea of what's in the nape of our necks" or something along those lines. I really don't think memory loss would do that; it implies that the last time he checked in, the humans knew nothing.
One theory that might work: grisha is that Titan and he was acting like a time bomb of sorts, like eventually he would be forced to turn into that. But grisha seems like the kind of person who would rather die than let himself be taken over by something like that; after all, he did do that thing to Eren which was bad enough to make him cry.
One way or the other; there's a huge gap of knowledge; yet a retention of immense intelligence. It's a mess if it's grisha. If this is to be the case, isayama better pull it off in such a way that it isn't stupid.
Last edited by quoux; October 13, 2013 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Additional
No that's okay, debate is welcome!
Remember how chapter 50 began? Eren has always been a reckless hothead who was too quick to get into fights. You don't see Mikasa or Armin saying anything about how he changed since his mother died. Grisha was crying when he was about to inject Eren, and obviously Eren thought that in addition to his bizarre, inexplicable actions, tears were weird. He must have thought his father was having mental health issues. Dr. Yeager obviously had guilt regarding the information he kept secret at the very least, if not worse (i.e. if he really is the beast titan). A split personality is a good way to put it though, thank you. So yes, Dr. Yeager would, in theory, be aware of this other/titan side of himself, and also know he would one day have no control over it. More of a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing. Dr. Jekyll had a lab attached to his house, which could be paralleled by Dr. Yeager's locked basement.
From Sparknotes' summary of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde:
(warning: spoilers for the very end of the novel)
I still don't see how the places Yeager travelled while he was human matter though. And the matter of how he would have escaped as beast titan is rather inconsequential. Yes you could say he's a "space alien" but this isn't a story about space aliens as far as we're aware. I know you're using hyperbole to make your point but a "theory" like that is truly random and not based in anything that comes directly from the story. This theory was based in two characters exhibiting similar traits (physical appearance and scientific inclinations), and grew outward from there.
And as to why I defend this theory, it's not because I'm absolutely attached to it. (Again, I'm also partial to the idea Eren ate his father in order to "upgrade" from mindless to shifter-type titan.) It's more a matter of not shutting down discussion of a plausible theory, so thank you for engaging the topic rather than backing out.
Last edited by kannazuki; October 13, 2013 at 05:16 PM.
I think he was sent to scout about the humans' defenses. With his appearance we can now also think/expect of other kinds of titans not only being 1 or 2 classes.. Was it really proven that he did turn the villagers into titans? is that even possible?
That's true, he's always been a hothead! But it definitely takes a clear reason to do what he does. After his mother dies and he's on the boat and he makes that oath, that wasn't just reckless Eren. That was his pure, focused hatred; the kind that I also expect grisha to have. He may just have had a hard time expressing it with his son; after all he has to be strong for Eren, but with a dead wife and all those secrets in his basement, it must have taken a heavy toll, like you said. But I really don't think that caused split personality; one way or the other it SHOULD cause anger towards the titans (or their leader) but one way or the other Grisha would try to stop them (and if it were himself; go down the dr.jekyl route and suicide). If Grisha is like Reiner with a split personality; he's an extreme case. He's THE extreme case. Not only is it split personality but it's schizophrenia; his memories are completely wiped/ replaced, he shows no trace of being who he was before EVEN BEING A DIFFERENT SPECIES;.. We've seen split personality that is true but... This is INCREDIBLY extreme.
Where he goes is important. If he is the beast Titan, it took him years to get outside the wall just to come back in WITH NO RECOLLECTION and it's all just very messy. Or we could assume he ISNT the beast Titan, and he is somewhere within wall Shina, or we could assume Eren ate him, as you said. Where he travelled matters a lot because look at it this way; if all we had was his travel route, we could prove/disprove his association with the beast Titan.
Lastly, grisha is a Russian term for vigilant, or watchful. There are some offhand ways you could spin that to say "oh well the beast Titan is watchful" but one way or the other those are positive words that I think describe a good person rather than the beast Titan. I was describe THAT guy as maybe... Evil, creepy, morbid, mastermind?
None of the supporting theories of it being grisha could explain why he would turn those citizens into titans. The death of his wife would be too strong a thought to allow him to do that. Even Eren, in mindless form, was convinced to switch back to control from some thought.
just want to clarify; if we are basing this on what we have learned, then we can't assume that gong Titan will give him split personality. That hasn't happened yet. Going Titan has only resulted in going relatively mindless; not becoming some super intelligent being. That's a completely different ball game.
Last edited by quoux; October 14, 2013 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Additional
Jekyll didn't intend to commit suicide thoughQuote:
I don't see where the anger would come from. Grisha's the one who kept secrets/hid prior knowledge about titans. The titans did what titans have always done, as far as most people within the walls know, and to most people of that world, Eren's anger at all titans is as irrational as if he wanted to kill all lions because a lion ate his mother. The only other character that shares that zeal with Eren is Levi (but Levi keeps cool-headed).
I'd say any split personality is extreme, by definition. Also, schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder are completely different things. Schizophrenia is an illness that (if it gets severe enough) causes paranoid delusions and psychotic breaks from reality, the likes of which no one in this series has demonstrated. Nothing to do with alternate personalities at all, despite whatever popular confusion remains about the two diseases.
What I mean is that we literally have no information about where he went after he injected his son with whatever was in that syringe. Where he was prior to that, we know next to nothing about aside from that he travelled around curing people of a "plague" (*coughsuspiciouscough*) before settling in Shiganshina. His beginnings and his travel routes are a total mystery to us (and to Eren). We just know that he is known by people like Hannes (RIP!) and Keith Sadies (Shardis?) and appears to be an important figure within the story world. Who knows when the ape titan may have entered the walls (aside that it should have been over 80 years ago if Grisha stayed human all that time), if they are indeed one and the same. Who knows when he may have, hypothetically, left and then re-entered the walls (or if he stayed inside the whole time, using some Jekyll-like potion to temporarily maintain his identity as Dr. Yeager)? Can Eren, Mikasa, or any other regular cast member tell us for certain where he was at any time that he wasn't by their side? Nope. We weren't shown this as part of the narrative either. What I'm saying is unless we have some confirmed itinerary that I missed, there is no way to know where he was, or if he took any detours along the way to/from see his associates inside Sina.Quote:
That's very interesting, but I'm not going to speculate on what his name might mean for now... :')Quote:
We just don't know enough about Grisha, but I can say that in my opinion, Grisha and beast titan's motives are almost certainly not the same.Quote:
Unproven theories are commonly based partially in observation from experience (in this case the observation of similar character traits from the "experience" of following the story) and partly on logical assumptions that work with what has been observed. Those logical assumptions exist purely to show the hypothesis is valid. Now we wait and see if any actual concrete evidence comes up to support or disprove the hypothesis that Grisha = beast titan.Quote:
It would be a moral reason; once again, the death of his wife. Whether or not he feels responsibility, I think that one act might shock him into the realization that he needs to put a stop to it.Quote:
I get what your saying, but no one created lions (I mean human wise) and then had said creation eat his wife. That's a different case in which you COULD be upset. However we don't actually know the nature of Grisha's affiliation with the titans at all; again all speculation that should be answered later on. That's just one of those things I suppose; but I still believe there is enough evidence anyways.Quote:
Any split personality IS extreme but even Reiner still knew who he was; even if he got carried away. He still knew what he did. Grisha's case would have to be EXTREME to the fact that ENTIRE CHUNKS OF MEMORY are removed. Coupled with a completely different MIRROR personality; a personality that doesn't even KNOW the other version. Dissociated identity disorder accounts for important memory loss, but not that kind. 3dmg and swords and neck napes and language would most likely (at least one) be remembered.
Just making sure. We can't tell where grisha went but just pointing out that if we could, we would know about the answer.
The plague is suspicious I wanted to make a thread about that :b
True might as well not speculate yet. But; others names have had a lot of relevance already however, "jaeger" does mean "hunter" after all...Quote:
That's true! It's only a hypothesis for now (I still claim a VERY weak one). I fine it incredibly humorous, however, that a lot of "supporters" of this theory don't even have the same views as why it COULD be grisha, as you do. Mostly the theory is supported because "we haven't seen grisha in forever and now that thing shows up oh hey obviously it's grisha" and then other variations, including that it turns people into titans and that it's smart. Bleh...Quote:
One last thing; most Titan shifters (aside from colossal) have SOME kind of resemblance to their Titan. Annie had a ton; Reiner has a similar body type as well as hair and chin; Ymir still has the same hair type and (though horribly skewed) facial features (enough to compare). Eren has same hair color, same kinda starey eyes; yet, Grisha and the beast Titan have no similarities. No similar hair style, no similar face structure...
We could jump his type with the colossal, but...
It's a shame that I'm in the Claymore universe, otherwise I'd capture Mr. Bananas for you, or kill him
The ape titan is the creepiest creature I've encountered, and it blew my mind when he/it first appeared in the manga. He's obviously vastly different: the hair is the most memorable, but language is even more significant. If he isn't a human in titan form, then we're in for a treat of an explanation as to why he isn't. He was puzzled about the 3D gear, so there's something very peculiar about him in that respect if he's a human.
Here's an important idea: it was clearly stated that titans aren't capable of "mating". If the ape titan doesn't know about the 3D gear (not sure when it was first invented, but surely long ago in history, perhaps 100+ years ago), he must have lived for a very long time. So, maybe humans in titan form don't age, or live significantly longer than normal humans? The most crucial question of the entire series: "Where did the titans come from?" Eren's basement!? Eren's closet? Hahaha!
Last edited by kannazuki; December 23, 2013 at 07:41 PM. Reason: possible spoiler for another series
My guess: the Beast Titan is a human, when talking about the 3D gear, he clearly suggested that all Titans (himself included) have something in the nape of their necks. In the latest chapters, regarding the humans/spine-brain, it was established that there was a difference between the generic Titans and shifters (though Haijme, and the whole interaction altogether implies there might be more to that story).
I'd go as far as to say he's an outsider, obviously with different goals to RBA (different faction?). Different goals considering he made his way to ruins -- i.e. lack of humans -- of Wall Maria, whereas RBA's objective was to exterminate humans.
Maybe RBA want the coordinate because of the Beast Titan? Considering the Ape Titan seems to have a coordinate-like ability, unlike the other shifters (sans Eren); I believe the Titan calling that Reiner and Annie used is very different to actually controlling the Titans. Supported by the fact that Reiner (who used the Titan call when Eren had him in a submission hold) speaks of the coordinate ability as if it is something he doesn't have.
If the Beast Titan is an enemy to RBA's home, it would explain why they'd want the coordinate (a controller of Titans) to have if they are up against someone who may very well be a coordinate himself (Ape Titan).
At this juncture I see the Beast Titan possibly being linked to one of the following:  Grisha (Eren's dad) //  The Wall Cult/Titan Worshipers/Higher Ups (King, nobles etc) within Wall Shina.
- Grisha (Eren's dad)
This assumes Grisha lived outside prior the walls (which may arguably be obvious by now considering he isn't around). The only reason I see Beast Titan going to Wall Maria is that he might be after the information Grisha has in the basement. That's the only thing of value we know is within Wall Maria. Maybe he and Grisha know one-another.
Maybe the plague that Grisha helped cure would come into this (IIRC in Before the Fall being extra cautious for diseases was mentioned; this may link). It might be that the Beast Titan links to this disease. The basis for this stance is shaky, I admit.
But the salient point here is that Beast Titan likely wants something in Wall Maria; only one thing naturally comes to our mind when we think "what?".
- The Wall Cult/Titan Worshipers/Higher Ups (King, nobles etc) within Wall Shina
This stance is a bit more interesting. Maybe Beast Titan's Titan conversion/controlling is the sort of thing that the Titan worshipers in Before the Fall were worshiping. The Wall Cult might be said cult who may've changed their totem of worship; Titans are within the Walls so there is that to note. However because there is an obvious link between the royals and the cults' knowledge of the Walls/Titans... it is possible that there might be war being kept secret that only the a select few from Shina (like the King and probably the Wall Cult) are aware of. Maybe the desire to keep it secret is strong seeing as Historia (someone who is allowed to talk about the secrets) was about to be killed... probably for being allowed to speak about it.
Possibly something that started well before the Walls formed... maybe a coordinate helped form those Walls and is residing (or used to reside) within Wall Shina? If so, then Beast Titan might be a relic from that era (seeing as Titan shifters have amazing lifespans -- Ymir), if he never frequented the Walls or anywhere close, it would explain why he wouldn't know of the 3D gear.
Both stances lack a concrete basis, but that's because this series is fairly "young" in terms of the information available to us. Beast Titan could be the original Titan, or he could be an advanced Titan from a far away land... we don't know what it could be.
Though IMO the timing of his entry within Wall Maria, Reiner, Bertholt and Ymir retreating on Wall Maria and Eren and Co's desire to enter Wall Maria soon... it all makes me think that Grisha's info is what brought the Titan to Wall Maria seeing as it seems like all these parties will clash when Eren and co enter Wall Maria.
Meaning the nature of Grisha's information will probably explain a lot about Beast Titan. Of course considering said info probably gave Eren his Titan/coordinate powers, might tell us a lot about the Titan.
I finally made up my mind for this poll and voted for the first option. However, it makes me wonder why so many people picked the second option considering how it has been implied (and now confirmed) that there are no 'pure Titans'. Despite my vote though, I doubt that the Ape Titan is human based. Think about it this way; if the usual Titans were originally humans then Ape Titans were originally apes. It sounds like a logical assumption of a first-grader and I can't think of anythign better.
Ever wonder where Ape Titan came from? If Wall Maria is the first wall... why was he in Wall Rose first; wouldn't it make sense to remain in Wall Maria?
A couple of explanations come to mind:
1. Someone from Wall Sina (possibly a higher up?) is the Ape Titan, so it'd make sense on how he appeared in Wall Rose (considering he'd start in Sina), then made his way to Maria.
2. He came to Wall Rose second, after Wall Maria. Learnt of the 3D gear, then started making his way back to his home land (which involves passing through Wall Maria).
Either way, I feel we'll see a face off between him, Bertholt-Ymir-Reiner and Eren and co, when Eren and co decide to go to Wall Maria.