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if the ball is thrown high then will hit the ground.... then it should be returnable. also if it isnt returnable, how come he lost to tezuka tnK?
To return it you have to be able to know where the ball will be without seeing, and then hit it fast enough before it bounces away. Like a Blindfolden Super Ultra Hyper Rising Shot.
Last edited by Hardy; October 17, 2012 at 09:48 PM.
well i assume there are high tier players that dont need eye sight to play tennis. so that's easy to counter the flashing part of the 6th counter. i guess thats where the fireworks come in. but i didnt see the audience get blinded by the fireworks, but i guess its different from the opponents point of view.
- Tezuka Zone (Ka)
- Hyakuren Jitoku no Kiwami (Rai)
- Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami (In)
- Tezuka Phantom (Rin)
- Zero Shiki Serve (KaRinRai)
Are you seriously saying Sanada would really be at a disadvantage here even if he hit cordballs all day? Just look at the facts. Sanada has single-handedly defeated arguably the most overpowered player in the entire (PoT1) series 7-5. I really don't think Hoshi Hanabi is doing anything against him.
Niou is much weaker than the regular Tezuka (Fuji says it himself), let alone TnK Tezuka. Niou can return the 5th counter as if it's nothing while copying Tezuka, so why wouldn't the real Tezuka be able to do so too? Tezuka would have no need to hit cord balls, because he can hit the 5th counter back cleanly. For that matter, why bother with cord balls to begin with when you got a tech like ZSS?
Plenty of shots in POT are said to be 'hard to return' but again, the Tezuka tier characters have shown to be able to return 'hard to return' shots like they're nothing. Yukimura's ability to return stuff is well documented. Tezuka has Hyakuren + TZone, and even an inferior version of Tezuka (cloned) can return 5th counter cleanly. Sanada can hit through Tezuka's techs, who is arguably the strongest tech-based player out of MSer (I consider Yukimura's tech more mental in nature). Atobe can return any technique Ryoma was copying, including Ka, like they're nothing. The 'hard to return' doesn't apply to the Tezuka tier of characters. They simply return any tech lower than their tech as if it's a normal hit, and Fuji has never been accepted into this tier even though he's definitely going to be in there some day, which means until one of those 4 guys say "Yeah Fuji now is on our level" all his techs are considered trivial to these guys.
For a good example of the difference between mere mortals and the Tezuka tier, at the beginning of NPOT, Oishi was using his Moon Volley and there's the usual 'Oishi's move lands exactly on the baseline!' praise from fellow teammates. Yet, Sanada back in the game against Ryoma can simply lob a shot to baseline 3 times in a row and it's said that he can do it a thousand times in a row if he wanted to.
When Niou cloned Tezuka, he served with the Hyakuren aura and got an ace, but we know Hyakuren aura actually does nothing for a serve (there's nothing to double at this point). Yet, a normal person would have a hard time scoring on Fuji using any kind of serve techs. This means for Tezuka, even the cloned version, his regular serve is stronger than just about any named serve tech (I sure don't see anything outside of Mach Serve/Zero Serve getting an Ace on Fuji). There's a consistent theme of the Tezuka tier characers where a lesser character's tech is just a normal hit to them, and conversely a normal hit for them is MUCH stronger than a lesser character's best move.
The "Tezuka destroys the dinosaur" smash, while a bit of overkill, captures this surprisingly well. We know Tezuka has no smash based techs but his normal smash might as well be Big Bang when viewed in the POV of a lesser player.
Last edited by Phantron; October 18, 2012 at 12:20 AM.
No, no, do not mention that movie, Phantron. The dinosaur moment is single handedly responsible for the vast majority of the Western manga world believing that PoT is DBZ tennis.
Phantrom, I don't know why you wrote those 4 last paragraphs, seriously. Sometimes you go crazy and just write a lot that doesn't have anything to do with the topic lol. I was talking about the 6th counter.
I reckon Fuji can make opportunities to score points with Sixth Counter. If he uses Fifth Counter, he can force Sanada to hit a cord ball. You may be thinking, "but Sanada has Rin." Well, in Sanada's match with Tezuka, when Sanada used Rin on Tezuka Phantom, the ball still had spin on it but it wasn't enough to make it go out. I reckon we can safely assume it can happen for Fifth Counter. The ball's spin will be softened but the ball will have enough spin to force a cord ball. Since it's a cord ball, pretty much all speed and power on the ball is cancelled, giving Fuji an opportunity to score with Sixth Counter.
If you argue that Sanada can run to the stands with Rai, Fuji can challenge him to an endurance match which will result in Sanada's legs becoming swollen and unusable.
Last edited by Fuji Shusuke; October 18, 2012 at 07:32 AM.
imo sanada dont have to run to the stands, but is able to get to the ball as it launches up from the net, or when it hits the ground on his side of the court.
Note: in pot 1, when niou says its impossible to return, it is referrring to himself and his skill level, based on his opinion. I bet others on tezuka,sanda, yukimura tier players and higher can deal with it.
People are putting too much stock in 'impossible to return' shots comment from anybody not in the Tezuka tier. Random spectators probably have said just about anyone is as good as Tezuka at some point.
Tezuka starts out with far superior stats than the rest of his team. He was the undisputed #1 in his own team before he even unsealed Hyakuren. Tezuka Phantom puts an unfathomably amount of spin on the ball to the point where it hurts his own arms, and yet Fuji, a person with lower stats than Tezuka, is supposed to have a tech that puts comparable spin as Tezuka did without any risk of injury?
Tezuka normally can put TZone level of spin on a ball without significant injury (probably not sustained for a long time, but then his 'sustained' game is more like Atobe-type tiebreakers). Niou, while copying Tezuka, can return the 5th counter without using any self-damaging ability, so at most it requires TZone level of spin to counter the spin on the 5th counter. Note that TZone level of spin more than cancels out 5th counter as the return is completely clean.
Now what does the top tier characters do against TZone? Atobe can see through it with his eyes. Sanada can break it with Ka (takes a while) or Rai (takes one shot). It won't be trivially stopped but it definitely can be defeated. So the notion that any of the Tezuka tier characters would need to hit cord balls because they can barely return 5th counter is absurd. It'd simply never happen unless they wanted to see that shot, and a Tezuka tier character will probably just return it anyway, not that they'd ever find themselves in a position vulnerable to that attack simply because Tezuka tier characters just don't hit cord balls when every one of them has way better techs than that.
We have yet to see Sanada use Rai to leap high into the air.
You want to tell me, that in the blink of an eye, Sanada can teleport from the court to the audience??
He can teleport the whole distance where Kawamura was blown into Akutsu's arms by Ishida??
You can't be serious. Nothing suggests Sanada can teleport 100m.
That's just taking things way out of proportion.
Are people on here actually believing this???
---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------
it's this simple.
Sanada must be good enough to hit a clean 5ht Counter with no Cord Ball. Considering Niou can.
And that's it. 6th Counter is sealed unless Sanada hits an accidental Cord Ball. Since Fuji is in Closed Eyes he would predict it.
And that's it.
This shows that it is impossible to know where the ball will land.
It's nothing like Hakuryuu.
I don't see Sanada returning this. Especially not by teleporting into the audience seats, and the teleporting back into the rally.
---------- Post added at 09:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 AM ----------
Sanada cannot see the ball. Sanada has no idea where it will land. Irregular spin, windfall, I bet nobody at all knows.
Once it lands, it flies into the audience. Or do you believe that Sanada can teleport to the audience seats and back in an instant like Phantron?
Hoshi Hanabi might be along with Rai, the best shot of PoT.
The only thing holding 6th Counter back is that is only works on Cord Balls. Sanada should have no problem with 5th Counter. If Niou didn't.
---------- Post added at 09:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 AM ----------
You write a lot of irrelevant paragraphs. Try and space them apart more.
Also, they all said something we recognize anyway. Sanada will cleanly hit back 5th Counter.
We are discussing 6th Counter and only 6th Counter at this moment man.
Lastly, this match is in the bag for Sanada. It's such a bagel for Sanada I don't even want to think about it.
6th Counter VS Sanada just til this Tournament ends.
If Ryoma can climb the chair the ref is sitting in to do Cool Drive, and his regular speed is at least a tier if not more below Rai, I don't see why people can't run to the audience to hit things back. It could just be something people don't do in POT on principle, but I see no inherent reason why in a series that features unfathomable feats of physical ability why getting to the audience stand is supposed to be hard for someone who can teleport.
The 'unreturnable' property of the 6th counter is meaningless because all kinds of unreturnable shots have been returned by the Sanada tier characters without explanation. You're talking about a tier of character who can simply say they can return this shot and do it without any explanation. Fuji's tech is probably more 'unreturnable' than the usual 'unreturnable' stuff but he hasn't got into this elusive tier yet. Fuji might be the closest member to joining that elusive tier but he's still a normal guy compared to these guys right now. We see people praise Fuji for hitting cord balls. Would anyone praise Sanada or Tezuka for hitting cord balls? No they're supposed to be way beyond such trivial things.
At any rate even if Sanada purposely hits the cord balls to setup the counter, and then turns out he actually can't return it (unlikely but still possible), it's really no different than say the paralyzation tech almost certainly would still work on Yukimura if Yukimura allows someone the setup time to do it, but it's meaningless because obviously Yukimura can prevent the tech from ever being used if he wanted to. Likewise Sanada can simply not hit cord balls.
You miss understand that this is one of the hardest shots to return. It is not as simple as you think. Sanada does not have superhuman reactions, he can only run fast with Rai. Hoshi Hanabi is at a speed which you cannot react to it. Even if he can run fast, if he cannot react to it, its useless.
---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 AM ----------
Can Sanada or Tezuka hit cord balls with their eyes closed?
Sixth Counter is for ANY cord ball. Conscious or unconscious. Fuji can simply force a cord ball with Fifth Counter. Also, Sanada is apparently able to aim a topspin lob right on the baseline 1000 times in a row. What makes you think he can't aim for a cord ball?
Of course Sanada can purposely hit cord balls, but why would he want to do it? I'm sure Tezuka can do it if he wants to too, but he never does it on purpose either. Unless Sanada got taunted into hitting cord balls there's nothing in his style that suggests he even wants to hit cord balls. Can Sanada or Tezuka hit cord balls with eyes closed? Probably not but that's like asking can Sanada or Tezuka do the Magic Volley? Probably not too (it's dependent on Jirou's arm being especially flexible or whatever) but why would they care if they can't do some inferior move? All of their normal moves are much stronger than a mere cord ball so why would they ever bother figuring out if they can do it?
In fact the cord ball is a pretty good separation between the god tier and the not. Obviously we see cord ball is generally a useful move in POT. When Shiraishi hits the cord ball back on 5th counter it took Fuji by surprise. But, do you really see Sanada/Tezuka/Atobe/Yukimura get surprised by a cord ball? They'll simply run up and return it normally. They also have way better at-will offensive moves than a mere cord ball so they don't do cord balls because there's no point when you already have way better moves to use.
---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------
Let's look into the cord ball more since I think it's a very good dividing point between the tiers in POT.
We know Fuji considers cord ball an effective offensive move (he uses it). In the game against Shiraishi we see that it is difficult for Fuji to defend against it (that's how Shiraishi scored off him at the end). So at the Fuji or below tier, cord ball is a powerful offense move and a hard move to defend against.
Now let's move to the top tier, using end of POT stats (since Fuji got no upgrade since POT), namely Sanada/Yukimura/Tezuka/Atobe.
Yukimura would trivially defend against any cord balls. His regular hits can hit through Hyakuren aura if not supported by another ability (TZone, moveable aura) while a regular cord ball can't possibly expect to hit through Hyakuren aura.
Sanada can use FuRinKaZan at will with no apparent side effects. Fu speed is faster than Ryoma's normal speed, who regularly makes sliding plays at the net to save drop shots. Offense-wise, Fu hits are said to be extremely fast, and Ka hits are hard to return even for Tezuka. While you can't say FuRinKaZan is strictly better than cord balls, there certainly seems to be no reason to believe they're weaker than cord balls. At best you can say maybe Sanada could use cord balls for variety.
Tezuka's ZSS is strictly a better move than a cord ball. He can defend against his own ZSS (against Kabaji), so by extension he can defend against cord balls as well.
Atobe's got a reputation for his defense, and while there's no particular scenario of him matching up against cord balls, he returned Ryoma's random mix of techs without any problem. On offense World of Ice is a much better move than cord ball.
So while the cord ball is normally a strong tech in POT, there's no reason to believe any of the highest tier characters even care about cord balls because they all have extreme offense/defense capabilities.