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I think the comment was simply that plot twists are just plot twists. They're used quite often in all sorts of stories. Can they go overboard? Yeah, like M. Night Shyamalan movies. But that's not really trolling.
A good example of trolling is in Gintama, at the end of the Elizabeth (Renho) arc:
Now, that's trolling! And it was awesome and funny, too.
So I think people say "trolling" when they really mean "plot twist" or "plot problem," would you agree?
If you believe that Yammy was Kubo's best troll, you have forgotten about this
Then there's the whole Quincy thing. Why did they insisted on exterminating Hollows? Surely they were aware of the fact that by doing so, they disturb the soul balance which in turn will bring the destruction of all of the worlds. Saving some humans isn't worth it if they destroy the whole universe anyway in the proccess. What they did is completely counter-productive. Are they suicidal or something? I could understand if they used their powers to protect themselves from Hollows, but no, they actually actively hunted Hollows. Then when Ishida's grandpa tried to reason with the incompetent Shinigami, they refused to listen. Both parties were acting irrationally. Now we have this new group of super humans who came out of nowhere, have zero development, and for some reason they're blindly following Bach and are willing to throw their lives for him in order to take revenge on the Shinigami for some event that took place 1000 years ago and has nothing to do with them.
What is the point of this arc, anyway? They suddenly appear after 1000 years to get revenge, and that's all? What next? Isn't killing off the Shinigami will bring their own destruction in the end, since they'll be no one to balance the soul balance?
Last edited by Samui; October 20, 2012 at 05:51 AM.
I don't recall Juha Bach explaining his plans in detail right ? The mere fact that they knew about Zero Squad means that they're prepared very well, and that they do have a plan
Also, Kubo never explained about the Quincy, and whats more, what he explained was what happened 200 years ago, not 1000 years ago, completely unrelated events, wait until Kubo explains eveything there's to explain about the Quincy and then we can talk
And although Bach has yet to explain his plans fully, this point still stands:
Came out of nowhere ? Again, Kubo mentioned the fuckin Quincys, yet he didn't bother explaining a lot about them, so how can you say out of nowhere huh ? Sometimes, I feel you guys want Kubo to tell you " Okay fellas, after Shinigami arc, there will be Arrancar arc, and Fullbring arc, and Quincy arc, we'll have a badass called Juha Bach, stay tuned ! "
You assume also that Juha Bach's plans are only limited to revenge, while he has yet to tell us his goals, also, SR have yet to be developped by Kubo, and yet you assume that their goal is revenge as well... Who told you that their goals are revenge huh ? Just because they follow Juha Bach, doesn't mean they have the same goals, the same could be said for the Espada : There are Arrancars who followed Aizen to get stronger (Nnoitora), to get friends (Starkk), to get revenge (Barragan), there are Arrancars who worshipped Aizen (Zomari, Aaroniero, Aisslinger), there are Arrancars who don't give a fuck about Aizen actually and just follow the Espadas like Harribel's fraccions for example...
Well,it makes sense because they saw other humans being killed by Hollows and these are actual tragedies and are driven to exterminate Hollows because they were sick and tired from just watching.It is their own justice they bring,so to say.Originally Posted by Samui
I do wonder though about Juha Bach's plan.I was thinking,a Shinigami's Zanpakutou cleanses the souls,right ? Well,I have a small theory : now Juha and the other stole many Bankais and killed very many Shinigamis,so to correct the balance they would have to kill Hollows,but not exterminate them.What if they use the stolen Bankai to kill the Hollows,that would mean they are killed,not exterminated,and their souls cleansed,right?
Aren't we little hasty? I mean, expecting every chapter to be satisfying us. These writers/artists are humans as well. I have been reading manga for years now and I haven't found any series with perfect consistency. Or a series where every event occurs according to my liking. These inconsistent moments make the better ones all too exciting. I am not saying, its not reasonable to question Kubo or Kishi or Oda's work. Its just that we should show more gratitude for giving us those wonderful moments of reading.
Would the yami bit count as trolling if it was foreshadowed hundreds of chapters earlier that there was something off about him though?
We already had specific details on the matter. We already knew the number assignation aizen came up with was based on the amount of digits rather than the order of the numbers in the grand scheme of things. Basically the moment we had confirmation that yami was a espada and yet he had two digits as his number should be more than enough for us fans to suggest there was something weird here. If there were 10 espada and each of them only had 1 digit then it should have been pretty foreseeable for pretty much everyone that a espada must necessarily have the number "o". In fact I remember a number of people actually suggesting yami could turn out to be the strongest espada. I don't think this bit counts as trolling, the manga gave us plenty of actual clues on the matter.
I think that readers/responders who complain aren't all 'fair-weather friends' of Bleach. I have been a fan since the very beginning and have read every chapter, watched every anime episode. And I even liked the filler arcs. I don't know why people complain about them. I think the whole rescue arc was about the best thing I have ever read or seen in anime. And I got into the Arrancar arc. It didn't bother me at all that only a few characters actually died in the war. I actually cried when Ulquiorra died because Kubo brought such humanity to him in the end. And come on, who didn't enjoy badass Grimmjow??? (Hope he comes back).
I was quiet about things I didn't like as much (Aizen's constant ability to out-think everyone to the point of him seeming visionary, his OP power, Don Kanonji...). Yeah, a few things made me scratch my head, but it wasn't enough to damage my enthusiasm at all.
Okay, to me, the fullbringer arc wasn't a fave. I thought that the Zanpakutou Rebellion filler and the filler before the fullbringer arc were better. But it wasn't bad. And I loved Byakuya and Renji's battles. Byakuya was challenged to 'get down and dirty' with Tsukishima and he proved that he wasn't all flash steps and reiatsu. Renji FINALLY looked badass and didn't get bowled over by his opponent. And the captains' entrance was one of the best moments in anime to me.
This last arc has been hard because in his attempt to bring across the hopelessness of the situation, I think Kubo has given the enemy so much power that it was overkill. And in the battles where good characters died or were defeated and may have died, there were things that caused me to lose my ability to suspend disbelief. When we read fiction, we as readers have to be able to quiet the inner logic/critic and receive some harsh things without question. To bring off this arc more successfully, I think perhaps Kubo should have made a commitment to provide more pages at a time so that the story wouldn't get 'bogged down.' This arc has gone on for twenty-two chapters and so much has been so depressing, that I wasn't reassured by Ichigo's entrance, even when it came. A little ray of light here or there is necessary, I think to keep readers engaged and I just think the slow release of few pages at a time is hurting the progression of the story. The other thing that I think many readers have a hard time with is that we have read faithfully for a long time and invested in the core characters, and up to this point, we were led to believe that good would prevail and we would get to see our favorites come through. But suddenly in the last arc, the formula changed. In some ways, it is a good thing for change to happen. But at the same time, it would be good for Kubo to show some cognizance of the people who have known and loved his characters for over a decade and will be understandably upset when they go down.
So while a character death might be necessary to the plot, great thought must go into the planning and execution (lol) of it. Maybe in the chapters that come, it will show more that such thought went into this, but right now, it's hard to see that.
Anyway, just thought to give the thoughts of a longtime fan who, while having complaints about the current arc, shouldn't really be labelled a 'fair-weather fan.'
I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm NOT saying that people don't have a right to be disappointed with certain story arcs or even the whole story.
What I AM saying is that I'm tired of band wagoners who as soon things don't go their way or the story becomes unpopular they bash the hell out of it
and then once it starts getting "good" again they act like they've been the most loyal fans since forever. There have been flip floppers in Naruto. But I still say Bleach has it worse. As it's basically a National Past Time to bash Bleach. That is until it got "good" again.
Not only am I tired of fair weather fans, but I am also tired of fans that don't know what Bleach is about after reading it all this time. This manga is not like that shitty manga The Breaker which is about some bitch that is always getting outclassed by side characters. It is about a young teenage boy who has been drawn into spiritual conflicts which initially he is ill equiped to handle but miraculously comes through difficult situations in the end. His ambition is to protect people and to guide dead souls to Soul Society so they can live a more peaceful existence rather then turn into hollows or get hunted down by them. The manga is not about some pale skin green eyed emotionless bastard, or some blue haired arrogant nut job, or about some old ass invincible shinigami with a stale personality.
Last edited by Cyber34; October 26, 2012 at 12:22 AM.
You're free to like or dislike whatever you want.
However I think you are rather mistaken in your criticisms.
You complain about the "trolling" in the Arrancar arc. It's fair enough you don't like it.
Yet you claim Soul Society had no such trolling? Are you kidding? Soul Society had the BIGGEST troll of all.
It should be rather obvious what it is.
Also kidnapping Orihime wasn't just for trolls. It's called a diversion. As in strategy.
There's quite a lot I disagree with you about. But I'll leave it at that.
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