The captain lvl fighters constantly wondered how there are gonna get out (specifically Toshiro). Toshiro was looking for a way to get out (meaning that Yukio lacking power arguement is not at all true). He lacked imagination is more true than lacking power.
Kirge was that strong. He doesn't have to display huge lvl attacks for you to realise that (afterall the quincies never displayed huge lvl attacks in the first place).
He can absorb not just spirit particles but actual beings themselves. Allon was a victim of this & Orhihime plus Chad were close to being a victim of this too (until Ichigo saved them). Have Byakuya attack with his bankai & it would be absorbed by Kirge.
Just because Ichigo stopped him doesn't mean other captains can.
Ichigo is older & much much stronger. What he lacked a massive experience. In SS arc he was more than capable of one shotting Byakuya with ease (that ain't no small feat). I can't believe you mentioned his performance after the SS arc (I honesly can't believe it). Not only did he have the problems he carried from the SS arc, he also had more control problems, despair, anxiety & resently we found out that his reiatsu was also restricted by Ukitake. If he was at all power, we wouldn't see Grimmjow's butt in 3 fights.
He was equal to Shikai Ichigo (who is above most people). That's mre than enough to hype his power. Stop using Grimmjow's example because he fought a much much weaker Ichigo.
Zaraki would have lost against both captains if the intended it. Tousen casually walked to Zaraki in bankai (he wanted to teach him fear). He could have simply thrusted his sword at his throat.
komamura never even fought Zaraki probably. A bankai fight & Zaraki would get his butt kicked.
1. I'm writing this from my Boone which why I can elaborate the way I want to dissect you weak arguments.
2. I don't even want to as your a hard going Bleach follower a manga that has turned crappy and mis conceptualize what really goes down.
3. Faulty contradictory arguments on your behalf...I read both manga and watched Anime. Even while Arcs because they make so much more sense with the full picture.
4. Ginjo can't beat any captain.......They all improved since getting owned by Aizen or owning Arrancar
5. I will never admit Kenpachi loss to Ichigo, the battle was a draw. And in Ichigo's favor Kenoachi received quite a few attacks before taking his GT...Which Ichigo was pushed to use his vast amount of reiatsu(Blue eye Ichigo) Always means surpassing his limits..Oo also masked saved him then too.
6. Byakuya actually lost cause Ichigo hesitated to attack twice in Bankia....After Byakuya refrained from attacking with all his swords...So actually Byuakya would have to use Kidou and Shunpo techniques to fight Ichigo
7. I'm referring to pre-time skip Ichigo now he is stronger than them. But not by that much it's interesting to see if Kenpachi all out can beat him before..Of course he could of.
8.Ginjo was nothing special again Ichigo one handed his Cero...Due to his FB powers , Sure Kenpachi would do the same.
First with reiatsu. It's going to be an easy one. It has increased by a lot, and by a lot I mean big enough because it is the combined reiatsu of every captain, vice captain and his father and Urahara's group flowing through his veins, and that it can solidify.
A simple swing of his sword has a bigger power than a Getsuga Tenshou before he recovered his powers. A Getsuga Tenshou before the time skip was powerful enough to defeat Byakuya's Shikai.
And how about size? Monstrous.
Here's how a Getsuga Tenshou looked with his old powers [Example 1][Example 2]
And here's how it looks like after he regained his powers. [Example 1][Example 2][Example 3][Example 4][Example 5][Example 6][Example 7]
And how about strength? Ginjo said that by merging Shinigami and Fullbring he would acquire a power that transcends them both, and it certainly does. Even a Royal Guard known for his speed and probably the fastest character besides Ichigo broke his hand against his face because he wasn't fast or strong enough.
So no, he's not just at a level on par with captains. By the time of the Soul Society arc he was above Byakuya, a very talented, gifted and skilled captain. Now he's ten times that. The VandenReich is afraid of him and actively avoid a confrontation. Wake up.
had no trouble reacting to Bach's speed.. Actually, the only reason Bach was pushing him was because of his physical strength but mostly because Ichigo was torn to shreds. It was the first thing Bach said to him. And it wasn't only him, but also Hanatarou, Shinji and himself.
Kirinji smacked the shit out of Ichigo with full intentions of sending Ichigo into the other world. He knew he was healed and was also getting increasingly pissed at his constant whining. Do you know how hard you have to hit something to break your hand? You would have to punch a wall a few times with all your strength. This is a Royal Guard. His strength must be very high, at the very least at the average captain level, but probably much higher than that.
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What does ichigo merging his shinigami powers with his fullbring have to do with anything? That was never stated to be implicitly stated to be the reason for which ichigo broke the dimension that easily. Ichigo is indeed extremely powerful but so are the captains at large. You are comparing negacion to what yukio did. While both create separate spaces they are by no means necessarily the same thing. If things were like you say then ichigo having newfound fullbring powers added to his shinigami powers wouldn't have made a difference.
You are grossly overestimating kirge. Why would we assume he can take captains so easily? He can indeed absorb people but so what? He only did so against people who would be fodder to captains to begin with and allon who to be fair we have no idea of how he would actually fare against a captain (although I am inclined to thinking a captain bankai would take him out rather easily). What we actually saw was that while kirge's holy arrow were said to be stronger than ishida's arrows they were not powerful enough that they presented a threat to ichigo at all while in shikai. Kirge used volstandig because ichigo was just about to make short work of him since his arrows could be stopped so easily. The only moment in the fight in which kirge appeared awesome and stuff was when he used volstandig and ichigo was still in shikai. Once ichigo actually used his bankai what we saw was that kirge was helpless. Kirge made it clear, ichigo was easily surpassing him even after getting a power boost for allon (meaning that he was even stronger than what he would ordinarily be). In the final moments of the fight kirge was getting so throughly pounded he could not afford a second to change to his blutz arterie, he was stuck with blutz vene or else he risked getting killed.
Blutz vene is a defensive power which makes the user unable to gather offensive power. As far as the quincy are concerned you either defend or attack, there are no middle grounds. Sure, a quincy could resist basically anything with blutz vene but their apparent invulnerability also makes the harmless for the time of its duration. Quincy can be killed by the most standard of means once they use blutz arterie, that is why ichigo easily blew off juhabach's hand when he caught him offguard after using blutz vene.
Ichigo did get his power thanks to the captains but that does not mean his current reiatsu level is actually the result of adding the reiatsu of all of them. As far as we have been led to believe ichigo is currently using his own shinigami powers. The sword gathered an immense amount of power to restore ichigo's shinigami powers, not to have him function with the combined power of all of his friends.
Of course ichigo's getsuga tensho would be more powerful after he got his powers back. I mean, the comparison ginjo was making was against ichigo's literally powerless state.
We have literally no reason to think nnoitora or kenpachi are slow in the least. If nnoitora was as slow as you say there would be no reason for him to be quinta or an espada at all, he would just be blitz in combat by literally anyone. Yet we have yet to see nnoitora or kenpachi get blitz.
As far as I recall kenpachi never used kendo against ichigo. The fight tied before getting there.
This explosion was caused by a single one of his arrows.
In which case that Getsuga was pretty powerful and created a decent sized explosion, and it terms of size it wasn't small or anything. But you are missing the point. The air pressure behind the sword was powerful enough to be mistaken by a Getsuga Tenshou. And where have I seen that before? Right, Aizen. Oh, and in his fight once Ginjo went Bankai too the entire sky was lighting up from the reiatsu, causing huge explosions just from having those two move around. They both are that far beyond normal captain level.
Even if yukio had done any of that it wouldn't have made a difference. All the captains had to do was simply break the room they were at or in a worst case scenario break the dimension itself. Even hitsugaya only barely bothered with yukio because he wanted him to dispel the other dimensions. Besides, being inside the dimension is in itself not as bad a plan as you make it out to be. If he had remained outside the dimension then he would have been vulnerable to whoever did beat the other fullbringers. If he stayed in a dimension on alone then that dimension would have been a target to the other captains (who rukia made very clear could indeed break the dimensions). If yukio had been up against a VC the situation would have been different but in the end he was up against a proper captain with actual captain level. Heck, even grimmjow could bend space with his gran rey cero, there is no reason for the dimensions to be all that to begin with.
All yukio said was that he could not dispel the dimension ginjo was in. Other than that there was really no difference between that one and the others. Ichigo pulled of the things you mentioned including breaking out of a bakudo as a human simply because he has a a lot of reiatsu. Even as a human he poured out enough reiatsu to interfere with rukia's sensing. But so what? The captains also have insane amounts of reiatsu and as I pointed out before even sexta espada has enough power to bend space. Why would the guy who beat septima easily, the guy who overpowered tercera or the guy who one shoted quinta because he used "two hands" have trouble with this?
The quincy volstandig is extremely different from the lets stilt though. More so, the form will in the end simply not be all that because otherwise what we should expect is that a single captain level quincy using the form should be more powerful than all of SS and nothing we have seen suggests that is the case. Whether volstandig is a more stable but less powerful variation of the lets stilt or mayuri simply was too weak to handle ishida's full potential as a quincy does not change that in the end the captains will be more than able to match the quincy volstandig with their own bankai. Nothing suggests kirge was among the high level stern rittern in the least. Not even the fact that he was given command over a bunch of even weaker vandenreich to recruit an already defeated army whose leader was defeated by juhabach.
Nothing suggests that blutz vene and blutz arterie can be combined or balanced. More so, urahara makes a point of saying that they can't, he mentions it as a crucial strategy to fight the quincy.
Why would that beat the purpose of the story? If anything the story would be overall pointless if ichigo's power level was currently the sum of yamamoto's, ishin's, the captains, the VCs, the vizards and whoever else has reiatsu in bleach. If ichigo's power was like that it would currently dwarf yamamoto to the extreme of yamamoto being worthless fodder to him. Aside of yamamoto and ishin there would be 20 other captain level people giving him A LOT of power. The sword was used specifically so that ichigo would get his own power back, not to make him into this huge container of reiatsu not his own. There is literally no reason for us to think that ichigo is currently using anything but his own power.
except that basically any captain is able to use sword pressure like that and straight up cut buildings. Even kenpachi was able to do something similar to that during his fight with ichigo and in all likelihood he does not even know how to properly use kenatsu.
It does not change that that was basically a powerless state of ichigo. He didn't even have reiatsu at that point and could barely, if at all, feel it. At that point he was basically being powered up by the reiatsu which the medal had to the point where ichigo's first use of fullbring was basically throwing reiatsu flowing out of the badge at people.
Not knowing or using shunpo or sonido is not the same as being slow. Its not like in fights people only move by using either. Nnoitora did rely on his hierro and perhaps speed is not either of their fortes however that far from implies either of them is slow.
Nnoitora was basically playing with nel and ichigo. After a while nnoitora made it EXTREMELY clear that nel was not a threat to him at which point nel used her release.
Ok, kenpachi does not know kendo but that does not mean he is not every bit as insanely strong as everyone makes him out to be. Kenpachi had a lone day of kendo lessons on him and even that was enough to make the difference between a espada handing him his ass on a silver blood stained platter and ripping that espada apart without said espada even being able to defend. Most captains need a bankai level power boost to make such differences in battle, kenpachi just needed to remember that sad day where he was forced to learn how to fight.
Just because you can see it there doesn't mean it's actually there, it's completely removed from the plane they are in.
But even if you don't understand this concept I can still apply it to something you can understand. Byakuya went Bankai inside the chatroom, and used it for a while, with no effect. Let's say that he got rid of Tsukishima and walked for minutes, hours, months or decades until he found the end of the chatroom, what would he do then? Strike at it with his blade? What did Ichigo do? He simply used Bankai and the chatroom blew up completely. No need to attack it or move from his position, the chatroom simply could not contain him.
Now you can accept what I say which is consistent to what Ginjo said and the logic that was established by Aizen or bend the rules of physics and reality to your advantage because you can't quite accept the manga fact that Ichigo is not normal and has become ridiculously overpowered.
"Hey, let's destroy that thing".
"Nope, you can't, it's unbreakable".
"OMG I can't believe something like this can exist"
*Ichigo breaks out of it* .
Ever since the Fullbring arc Ichigo has been built up as very strong and a staple in Soul Society. You trying to discredit my claim by any means necessary also means you are trying to dismantle 50 chapters worth of story progression. Ichigo breaking out of that dimension was a storytelling tool and the captains waited outside to hear an answer and to know if they could have his trust or not. Those chatrooms can't be destroyed if you hit them enough. The End.
1- That Mayuri was too weak for Ishida's potential when he in fact was superior and even more so with his Bankai, which was split in two by an arrow made of super concentrated pure reishi.
2- That the Vollstandig can easily absorb captain level beings in seconds and add them to their strength.
3- Every single bit of reiatsu released by a captain or their Bankai will only strengthen Vollstandig.
4- The brutally powerful Blutz at the Quincy's disposal.
Just Blutz alone is enough to withstand Zanka no Tachi from a close range or to increase attack power by the same amount IN A QUINCY'S BASE FORM, and a SR is capable of matching a captain by themselves. A mere Bankai is not going to compare to the Final Getsuga Tenshou version of a Quincy because it's many steps above a sword release.
He had recovered his ability to sense reiatsu and his Fullbring had reawakened and fuses with his Shinigami powers. And again. Powerless?
And yet, what we saw was ichigo physically destroying the dimension he was in. That is a fact, why would any other character with enough power be unable to do that? If its a matter of power the captains got plenty.
And there is still no point in comparing negacion or hachi/orihime's barriers to yukio's ability. Just the fact that we saw ichigo physically breaking out of yukio's dimension is more than enough proof that the dimensions he was creating were not all that to begin with.
Not sure of what you mean about the espada there, what does it have to do with my point? My point was that even sexta espada was able to use his power to bend space itself which ordinarily cannot be physically interacted with in a way in which you can bend it. Dimensions are basically made of space and we have factual proof that captain level individuals can do quite a bit to it if they want to so why would a human made dimension be all that in comparison? Yukio is weak and his dimensions and the things inside them are made of reiatsu too therefore bound to the rule that higher reiatsu triumphs weaker reiatsu. The manga never said that grimmjow's cero just distorted light or whatever created the blue sky, his cero did not even reach the ceiling. His cero distorted "space", not whatever random magic which was never mentioned in the manga.
We don't need to ask the scientific community about how space/dimension bending and creating works in a manga. We have seen ichigo physically break a dimension even though at this point he is still pretty tri-dimensional and we have seen grimmjow bend space, the stuff dimensions are at large made off. The manga has already crapped on every notion of what space is and how it works in the real world, the comparison is at large pointless.
As far as the manga has said blutz vene and arterie cannot be balanced at all. Until this manga hints otherwise this is a fact.
When ichigo fought nnoitora not even once nnoitora even bothered to try against him. The manga made a point of showing nnoitora was simply toying around with nel and ichigo and that neither ever had so much of a shred of a chance of winning. Nel just got an actual upperhand from releasing however if she had faced nnoitora's resurreccion she would have had her ass royally handed to her. If nnoitora had actually tried against them both of them would have died. Its not that nnoitora couldn't keep with ichigo, he was perfectly able to but rather chose to play around. Nnoitora is plainly not as incompetent as you make him out to be and while kenpachi does not actually know how to fight he more than makes up for it with the absurd amount of reiatsu he has. The rule of thumb in bleach is that when two reiatsu's clash the weaker one gets hurt. Kenpachi is nothing but a huge mass of reiatsu and that is in fact enough in this case.
"With my Blut Vene at full power I can't switch to Blut Arteria"
And from other translations:
But with my Blut Vene at full power, I can't switch over to my Blut Arterie!!
But while I'm focusing all my energy on Blut Vene, I'm unable to use Blue Arterie!
(But I can’t switch into Blut Arterie* with Blut Vene in its fully engaged state!!)
"While it's at full power I can't switch" heavily implies that it was because he was so busy being defensive that he couldn't switch, and that it's otherwise possible to use them both.
He used underhanded methods and waited until Ichigo was half dead to fight him. Even then Ichigo didn't really have any trouble keeping up even though he was hardly breathing. Nnoitra also cheated to get easy hits on him. And against Nel he said he was playing even though he did get cut real good and couldn't really push her back even when he was actually attacking seriously.
Nnoitra wasn't superior to Nel, simply because it helped his character. He loved to talk big and you should stop taking everything they say to make themselves feel better so literally.
Torran, gonna love the persistancy.
A billion Yamamoto's in bankai all using north at the sametime ain't gonna break the Kototsu (dangai train) or make a Garganta or break a negacion (even though it's used by freakin menos) with brute force. It's simple not possible YET one Aizen (just one) is able to do it (BECAUSE HE BECAME A BEING ABOVE IT'S LOGIC).
Like Torran said, yall need to stop thinking with your biceps.
Also about the blut.
"unless my blut vene is at full power, I won't be able to stop his (Ichigo's) slash speed but with my blut vene at full power, I can't switch over to my blut arterie & attacking without blut arterie is useless against someone is bankai mode!!"
It sounds like you give & take away when it comes to Blut.
Kenpachi would kill Ginjo, Ginjo is without a doubt the weakest main antagonist of an arc in the whole series, though still strong. Why are you so impressed with Ginjo? He never did anything impressive. He stole Ichigo's GT, that was the only dangeorus technique he had, and it wasn't even his. All he did in his Bankai was fire a cero, and Ichigo blocked it with his barehand. Ginjo only landed a hit on him when he caught him off guard with his GT, Ichigo was mostly unscathed, and did not have a look of desperation on his face once in that fight like he usually does when he's having a semi-hard time. That was one of the easiest fights Ichigo's ever had. Ichigo is very strong, but I can tell he's still not making captain level opponents look like total noobs when he can't one shot Kirge Opie who had to use Sklaverei on Allon. And you seem to completely forget about Ichigo's fight with Kenpachi, that fight was a draw, and Ichigo got a temporary power up from Zangetsu. Ichigo by himself did not have the power to fight a captain at that point, thats why he needed to train with Yoruichi.
How the hell do you get Ginjo being worlds apart Ichigo in SS? Ginjo has no feats, no hax powers, all he has is a stolen GT and that energy blade move which he doesn't seem to use very much. I really like Ginjo, I think he could fight with a captain, but only the weaker captains would lose to him. What makes Ginjo so strong in your book? Just his status as the main villain of that arc? Kenpachi would win in my opinion, Ginjo has nothing he can do really. Tsukishima would do better even because of his hax. If Ginjo fights Kenpachi sword to sword he'll eventually lose, and I don't see his GT being effective. Kenpachi would just block it with his reiatsu or dodge it.
And no, that Ichigo Ginjo fight was not long. It was extremely short. It was mostly talking, a good deal of it was other people talking that weren't even in the fight, and Ginjo lost the chapter after he used Bankai, and half of that chapter was the shinigami talking. And you really think Byakuya outclasses Kenpachi? It's pretty obvious that they can fight on par with each other.....
Last edited by exacta; December 24, 2012 at 08:53 PM.
still lower than many important characters.
Aizen even commented about it, how he pitted Ichigo with Kenpachi when he was at that level, and by level I mean just 10 days of basic training and no skill. That inexperienced Ichigo beat Kenpachi badly, and not even 2 hands or taking his eye patch off saved his ass.
Haschwalds sarcasm when complimenting Kenpachi.
He stole Ichigo's power, which gave him the strength to fight head on with him. And Ichigo wasn't just a captain level after regaining his power, no, he's a complete monster and easily 5 to 10 times stronger in just Shikai than he ever was in Bankai + Mask. Kenpachi couldn't stand against an Ichigo fighting with just reiatsu, he won't stand up against 10 times that in just Shikai or 100 times that in Bankai. And guess what? That reiatsu has also increased by a lot.
And what's more? A mere Getsuga Tenshou he stole? Ichigo didn't even use Getsuga Tenshou to beat Kenpachi, and now that same Getsuga Tenshou is 10 times bigger than it was back in the Soul Society arc. And Ginjo can easily counter those.
And what else? Oh yes, that whole transcendentality deal. It was confirmed to merge and improve powers and later Ginjo didn't look very different from other fellow Transcendentals like Aizen or the Soul King.
Oh and that same thing that Ichigo and Aizen were doing with the mere sword pressure annihilating mountains and creating earthquakes applies to Ichigo's fight against Ginjo. That doesn't mean Ichigo is on the same level as Mugetsu, but still.
So I'm going to turn your logic back at you and ask what has Kenpachi done that shows he can compete against any of them?
He could have killed Quilgue at any moment but he wanted to get information out of him. It was made very clear.
And Quilgue was very strong, but was caught off guard by Allon, whom he didn't have in the Daten. And just after mentioning Blutz he fixed himself right away.
Ginjou is featless stop typing nonsense..
Kenpachi beats him low difficulty ...Same way Ichigo did.
YOU ARE WRONG. GINJO WOULD ANNIHILATE KENPACHI WITH EASE AND THAT'S THE END OF THE DISCUSSION. IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH A REASON WHY KENPACHI WOULD STAND A CHANCE.
Hating on Kenpachi it's ok he has many haters....Ginjou fanboy don't understand it since he's featless!!...He burns Ichigo a lil bit with a GT, and gives him minor wounds with his Bankia....Lmao easiest win for Ichigo no black GT even needed.
I'm not even responding to you after this cause you obviously have a comprehension disorder. Kenpachi owns low Diff....as with any other captain would destroy him.