Madara wipes the floor with The Alliance, Meteor no Jutsu style.
Obito decides to finally use his Rinnegan and Chou Shinra Tensei The Alliance
Ino controls the Juubi and makes it eat Madara and Obito
Sasuke crashes the party and every fangirl screams
Hinata reveals she's the mastermind behind the Juubi, and backstabs Naruto
Juubi & Co decide they are suddenly weaker and let the Alliance do their thing while standing still like robots
Juubi does NOT fire his Bijuuhameha at the Alliance and patiently waits until Kyuubi is ready to dance
Naruto and Itachi were the only ones that changed Sasuke. If Sasuke didn't want revenge, or if he didn't vow on gaining power in any way possible to beat Itachi, he wouldn't have become evil or left with Orochimaru. And as Orochimaru commented after his fight with Sasuke and Sakura, Naruto began to change Sasuke for the better and bring him out of the dark place he was in, until Orochimaru made Sasuke crave power again, and Sasuke realized how weak he was in comparison to Itachi. Despite all that though, the only thing post-Tobi changed about Sasuke was that Sasuke was more willing to kill, but even that can be debated as the samurai attacked him despite Sasuke's warning, and they were still enemies.
What? He wasn't full of hatred until he learned that Itachi killed his entire FAMILY on Konoha's orders. HIs hatred towards Konoha isn't justified, but he is perfectly justified on wanting revenge on the elders considering they ordered his clan to be killed, and segregated them. The citizens did nothing but respect the Uchiha.Quote:
And of course Itachi "brainwashed" Sasuke. Itachi is Sasuke's brother, someone that Sasuke loved and looked up to. Jiraiya and Iruka both have the power to brainwash Naruto anytime they wanted because Naruto loves them like his own grandfather or father/brother and looks up to them. Those close to us are more easily able to brainwash us.
If Tobi said he saw JIraiya slaughter innocent people, Naruto won't believe that. If Kakashi said Jiraiya did slaughter innocent people, Naruto is more likely to believe it. Even Sasuke confirmed whether Tobi was telling the truth or not, which is something no brainwashed person or manipulated person do. And even in the end, he was still using Orochimaru and Tobi.
Why was he jealous though? He was jealous of Naruto's growth because Naruto, a known dunce, was improving at a great pace while Sasuke felt he wasn't improving enough. The only reason he felt like that, or the main reason, was because him wanting to be strong to beat Itachi, which is why he left. That's no different from Naruto going with Jiraiya because JIraiya promised to teach him a new jutsu.Quote:
Incompetent? Fair means? We saw Sasuke train. He got stronger like Naruto in a fair way. The whole using drugs thing is just an assumption made, there's no backing to it. And so far, it doesn't look like Sasuke was on any drugs. It can just be that Orochimaru was a great teacher for a genius like Sasuke. Sasuke had no easy way of getting strong, he was willing to work hard to get stronger. We saw him train his chidori after Naruto vs. Gaara, we saw him train with Orochimaru against 1,000 shinobi... we've seen some degree of Sasuke training.
Uzumaki isn't the only one that can be the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki, the only reason why they're chosen is because of their chakra. Otherwise anyone could become its jinchuuriki as long as they're strong enough. not to mention, Kushina and Naruto both had strong seals that kept the Kyuubi locked up. If not for Minato, the Kyuubi would have killed Naruto.
And once again, if neither existed, Sasuke and Naruto would still be strong. Sasuke was a genius who excelled at everything at a young age, before SHaringan. He still would have been a strong chuunin. And while Naruto wouldn't have his get-out-of-jail free card, he'd still be better. Naruto wouldn't have had a bad childhood, so he wouldn't see any need to be an idiot and would actually be smart, or smart enough.
To attribute Kyuubi or Sharingan as the only thing that makes Naruto or Sasuke good is, quite frankly, idiotic and biased. Both are good because of their own talents. Sasuke is a genius, this much has been established in the beginning of the manga and reinforced throughout it, which is why he's better than Naruto. Naruto is also a prankster, and it's been implied that he's "stupid" only because of his attention seeking ways, where his bad habits like lack of focus stuck with him. Despite Sharingan, Sasuke still gets owned. Once Kyuubi comes into play, Narto starts dominating.
Originally Posted by Invader
Okay, here's the thing: Naruto doesn't actually outsmart people so much as he decieves them with things that you can't really be aware of no matter how much smarter than him you are. For example, his Kage Bunshin strategies. Shikamaru is smarter than all of the people you've mentioned, and yet, if Naruto used his bait-and-switch strategy to trick him into attacking a clone rather than himself... that's not outsmarting Shikamaru. It's taking advantage of knowledge that only he can know, that no one else can possibly find out.
It's the equivalent of me demanding Albert Einstein tell me what I had for breakfast yesterday. I know what I had for breakfast yesterday, but he doesn't, and has no way of finding out.
As for how we can blatantly call Naruto an idiot and not feel like trolls for doing so:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/611/9 Big words make Naruto's head hurt.
And my personal favorite?
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551/2 "Oh snap! This guy absorbs ninjutsu! Better use a ninjutsu against him! That'll totally work!"
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551/3 "I just figured out he can absorb ninjutsu a minute ago! I'm such a moron!"
Now if he can admit it, why can't you guys?
Originally Posted by M3J
The problem with that excuse is that Kishi is responsible for every single character's personality and mannerisms. He makes Naruto dumb, yes. But he makes Sasuke do despicable things, makes Jiraiya a pervert, and makes Sakura useless. Every character acts the way they do because Kishimoto wants them to play a certain role. He even states he doesn't like "cool" characters and gravitates to silly characters like Goku (hence Naruto's dumbassery). This is the real reason Naruto is a buffoon. Yes he wants to add comedy to certain scenarios (Naruto wouldn't be the Number 1 Knuckelheaded Ninja otherwise), but nothing in the Rasengan vs. Nagato scene was comedic. If it were, Naruto would've been making a comedic face like he was when he was trying to pronounce "disorderly". We saw no bug eyes, no giant teeth, no nervous laughter.
I even gave the poor guy the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was trying to make Nagato laugh inorder to make sure it was still him in control. But the fact that his soul was halfway ripped out of his body should've been the dead giveaway.
So take it how you will. Just know, there's plenty of canonical evidence that proves Naruto is pants-on-head retarded. These are just my personal faves.
EDIT: BTW, the point of me bringing up Jiraiya, Sasuke, and Sakura is to prove that you can't just blame it on Kishi. If that were the case, anytime Sasuke did something evil I could just say "He's not evil! Kishi made him do it!"
Last edited by ninjabot; December 01, 2012 at 03:02 PM.
Kishi also limits Naruto. He made Naruto epic and a true leader against Pain, where Naruto made little no mistake. He kept up with this Naruto against the Kumo, Naruto even caught a sword slash with his bare hands! And then, Kishi ruined that by making Naruto obsessed with finding out whether the armadillo was a male or female, and made him make mistakes against Nagato that he wouldn't have made. Kishi was inconsistent, hence why I won't take this as a fact of Naruto's intelligence. It's like establishing Sasuke as a genius, but making him do stupid things for some reason, like trying to speedblitz punch Raikage if they fight the second time.
If you said Naruto was socially stupid, I'd be more inclined to agree, although he's gotten smarter in that regards as well.
Some hours ago I posted the first part of my comment of the last chapter (even if no one has commented it), now I post the second part of it, my comment about the arrival of the alliance ninja:
In any case, I really liked that Ino used the perfect Shintenshin against Obito, making him shot wrongly Naruto and the others (in fact the shots and movements of the Juuby are controlled by Madara and Obito).
In any case Ino has used Hinata as a viewfinder, as a radar, infact Hinata said to Ino the exact location of Obito.
In any case, it is strange that all four have come together, considering that Hinata was in the second team, the other member of the Yamanaka clan was in the third team (if I am right and he is a member of the Yamanaka clan), while Hinata's father and Ino even though they belongs to different team were in the same battlefield.
But perhaps all the teams came together, and quickly decided to send these 4 on ahead, while all the others would arrive soon after.
In any case, it's great the strategy of using insects and ninja that can use the art of the mist as a diversion, to prevent Madara and Obito to see the arrival of reinforcements.
I must confess that I am happy to Karui (I was disappointed that she was not showed at the meeting between the ninjas of Konoha when the clone of Naruto has come to help them defeat the Zetzu), I also really liked the comment of Kiba about Naruto and Hinata (but I will write about it in the Relationship thread, in the next days, when I will have enough time, for now I only say that is the thing that I liked the most about this chapter).
Anyways Madara and Obito use a taild of the Juuby to create a pressure wave which dissipates the curtain of mist created by the various ninja alliance, this in another demonstration of the Juuby's power.
I must say that I really think that the last page it is a spectacular double-page with all the ninja alliance behind Naruto, in particular for their posture I liked particularly Hinata, Kiba, Shino, Bee and Karui.
Naruto has been a complete moron since pretty much the moment after he faced Sasuke post-kage summit. I don't think this is an accurate representation of his character as he was before that point, but that doesn't change what he is now; and what he is now is an idiot. Before there was always a sense of "This is a character who is growing, learning, and maturing into something great" along with flashes of brilliant cleverness. Now he is just stupid and doesn't even realize it because everything works out due to dumb luck, inherited power, and plot armor.
That's the tricky thing about character development in a long running series like Naruto. The path the character is on is one continuous run. The whole thing counts, and once something is done it can't be undone. The best a good writer can really manage is to move his character past it in a believable way. I don't think there is any decent way to make Naruto smarter (timeskips aside), without making him realize what a fool he's been. And his new "heroes irrational confidence" is a barrier to that.
So when I say "Naruto is an idiot" it's rooted in the hope that one day Kishi does the hard things that need to be done in order for him to meet his true potential.
Last edited by Jammin; December 01, 2012 at 05:52 PM.
genin, chuunin, jounin and hokage are all just titles let it go.. Sasuke was handing chuunin/jounin level nin's back when he and Naruto were bickering and they both had to protect useless Sakura. Most of the time without sharingan.
And I think orochimaru, kabuto and sasuke are moving from one hideout to another once a week. And I'm pretty sure orochimaru isn't interested if sasuke become a jonin in the village full of farmers, after all, even kabuto is just a genin.
---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------
If you want anyone to comment with your post/review, then maybe you should create your own review thread like blackjack. Just sayin'
Regarding Naruto's character "lately". While I think this is better off in a more suited thread for in-depth discussion on the matter, Naruto's behavior between Jiraiya's death and meeting Sasuke again all ties in with Naruto being in a dark place. There was no room for humor, so he had no humor. A lot of his stupid self was suppressed before that as well. Naruto has always been a moron that took things seriously when he got serious. Kishi even spelled it out bluntly after Naruto met Sasuke that "a huge weight has been lifted from his shoulders", after that he began acting all stupid again because there was little reason to feel down.
What is however completely idiotic is Naruto's lack of seriousness and battle smarts in some cases after that. Like forgetting about one of Nagato's abilities, that's complete bullshit. Naruto is supposed to be a clever fighter, and stupid outside of them with exceptions of really serious situations, like when he talked to Nagato post-Pain fight.
In regards of this fight, I actually believe Naruto would have done better alone ever since Obito put Gedo Mazo up in his box-of-darkness. It's hilarious to say it, but Naruto alone would have been more dangerous to Obito than Naruto + Team Back Up + Huge Bijuu Standing Around Doing Nothing. Naruto alone would have been forced to think up working strategies and work around Obito's technique with speed, deception and perfect execution, just like he did against Pain. I know Naruto has been protected multiple times after Gedo Mazo was boxed up, but that's irrelevant as a 1v1 fight would have played out completely different. I'm actually annoyed this fight is turning into such a giant mess. Kishi isn't very good at doing long multiple character battles. The majority will stand around while the others do something, and it will look stupid. This fight is why I can't wait for Naruto vs Sasuke. It'll be no bullshit, just 1v1 where both are keeping it real.
So there's no one in konoha or in the other villages that could become a kyubi's jinchuuriki. So the kyubi is specifically for naruto. Naruto possess the kyubi's abilities not only because minato gave it to him, but rather he had that the kyubi's power because he had the ability to used it.
Sasuke is no doubt possessed the most powerful KG, so I'm kinda hopin' that naruto would eventually learn his clans power. I know he don't really like any complicated stuff, but I hope kishi would stop potraying naruto as stupid and moron forever. Naruto needs to be serious to continue minatoand jiraiya's legacy.
Well, I don't mind if naruto would become 2nd jiraiya. A stupid and perverted ninja but at the same time a powerful and an amazing ninja.
Naruto is retarded, but even retards can learn jutsu. Listen, Naruto has the Kyuubi, Senju, and Uzumaki. This guy has gifts far beyond everyone else. If he wasn't an absolute retard, this fight would have ended already. This new jutsu is equally retarded. Two Rinnegan users can just absorb it. A spray of the Bijuu bomb or a meteor could end this fight. Seriously, I want to switch to Sasuke and Orochimaru.
Anything would be better than this fight if the pace of no one dying continues.
I mean, I completely agree with what you were saying about duels as versus group battles. Kishismoto has always been really great and doing fights between superpowered individuals but I just think with Naruto's skill set he didn't leave himself a whole lot to work with.
Naruto's skills are insanely shallow. It's not that he doesn't fight with cleverness. It's that he almost can't. Kyuubi mode is terrible for that sort of fighting (glowing is not clever). Kage Bunshin remains his only real "thinking man's jutsu"(and he learned that in Naruto Chapter #1). Superior strength, stamina, speed, and endurance have become his primary method of winning fights.
Naruto has to fight in teams now because he needs somebody else around who can actually use ninjutsu (like Ino or Kakashi). Otherwise, it always has to come down to...
Kagebunshin ---------> Direct attack
It's no accident Naruto's fights typically go like that. It's because that's ALL he can do. When something more than that needs done, which apparently now includes "thinking", Naruto has proven that he needs somebody else to do it for him. (Kyuubi, Kakashi, or Ino+Hinata; are all examples). Naruto has become very "Rock Lee-esque" in that way.
So I think in duels it would just become more obvious that Naruto's skills carry the subtlety one would expect from slicing bread with a sledgehammer.
Last edited by Jammin; December 01, 2012 at 08:35 PM.