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Thread: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Ok, so the next stage of the current holy war is about to start. Juhabach broke into the palace, defeated the royals and just now stabbed the soul king. The sternriter safe for the elite guard are basically defeated. And now everyone left at sereitei who is willing and able to go to the royal palace is about to head there.

    We have urahara and the gtoei 13 captains. The vizards are going there too. It wouldn't be weird if the surviving yet powerless sternriter actually made a move to get to the soul palace.

    Now, the issue is that this is the right moment for anyone looking for a chance to change the world... literally. Stopping juhabach, doing something to the soul king... Everything is possible at this stage. So this holy war that started out between quincy and shinigami could easily have yet another party who wants to change the world for whatever it is they think is best. In this particular case urahara perhaps finally got his chance to act. Its all chaos... and all he needs to do is have his own little force to help him deal with the potential enemies. There might be a reason why some of the vizards and perhaps tessai seemed to stay behind in the human world even after their names were cleared after all.

    To boot it does not seem like juhabach has that many followers left so perhaps it does make sense for the good guys to split up. So the next turn of the war could be a three way beetween urahara and his allies, the gotei 13 and the quincy. And just to fuck with everyone else, shunsui releases aizen so that he gets his chance too. He seems to be a preferable alternative to juhabach after all, even shutara made the point that the quincy are far more depraved than aizen.

    Any thoughts?

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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    This seems like a recipe for a clusterf*!@. That being said, the manga currently has far too many characters with seemingly far too little to do. Something drastic has to happen for even half of the cast to be useful. As far as I'm concerned, Aizen's been vanquished...I'm not particularly fond of the idea of another act for his character. However, it is distinctly possible. On the other hand, Urahara betraying the group, as entertaining as it might seem, just doesn't seem to make sense based on his history, recent events, and the complicated web of relationships he has, particularly with the likes of Isshin and Yoruichi. I'm expecting some utter randomness on the part of the Quincy to move things along. What that could possibly be, I'm both curious and absolutely terrified.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Truly everyone seems to be getting ready to invade the palace. Something big is gonna happen and its quite difficult to entirely predict it.

    I can't really say for Urahara. Honestly after all this time, a troll from him would be pretty bad and highly unlikely. However, there's still much we don't know. How did he and aizen even get to 'see' the soul king? Was it so important to buy some time that he sent Ichigo to what hiyori said could potentially be his death? Ichibei seems to have done the exact same thing. He says Ichigo and co can't win, yet he sent them to face Ywach. Even pleading and seeming genuine, head bowed, knees to the ground and all.
    Ishida did try to dissuade Ichigo from following them earlier on. I would think that Urahara knows if the entire RG got trumped, Ichigo and his little group won't make much of a difference.

    Well there's a lot to be revealed. I just hope it doesn't all turn out to be underwhelming.

    Personally, I don't think it would be a 3 way war. Atleast not from the get go. Seeing as the Elites took down the RG, I think we would see about 3-5 'good' guys (basically anyone not on the Quincy side) vs each Quincy. The amount of battle power about to invade is quite large and like I mentioned in the chapter thread, if the RG>Gotei, then Gotei + a number of strong fighters (ranging from vizards to maybe Grimmjoww/harribel as well as ganju and the fullbringers) and maybe Aizen, Isshin, Ryuuken, surpass the RG and are sure to be a force to reckon with. If they gang up this way, using numbers to their advantage, I'm quite certain they could perform brilliantly.

    Right now, Ywach and the Quincy are priority. I don't think anyone needs to be told this. Misunderstanding this fact and trying something funny is tantamount to suicide, atleast going by what we've seen thus far.
    If someone is gonna try something funny, I believe it would come after Ywach falls or when he has been substantially weakened.
    Last edited by Holt; January 26, 2015 at 09:04 PM.

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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    I wasn't thinking of urahara in itself as a bad guy but rather simply a guy with an alternative different from what has been going on. I am not even suggesting he will want to be king. Juhabach just presumably killed the king, this would be the ideal moment to make a move. Urahara clearly protected the king earlier, the issue is now that the world is presumably kingless.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Zeta42's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    If Yhwach becomes the new Soul King, I won't be surprised if Shinigami break into two groups: one that intends to kill Yhwach, and one that will support him as a necessary evil (because he is SK). Can't say I'll be pleased with that, but... it's not impossible. There's a problem, though. The Royal Realm doesn't seem to be spacious enough for dozens of Shinigami to clash between each other (unless they all fight in the sky, in which case Kubo will do what he does best - no backgrounds).

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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    We also have to consider juhabach has not actually said he wants to be soul king. He aims for the destruction of the world so perhaps his aim was simply to kill the soul king leaving no one to take the seat. So on one hand we might have juhabach stopping people from getting a new soul king in, a group of shinigami trying to get the old soul king his seat back and another group trying to get a new soul king in. I doubt the current soul king is dying just yet at least, he has never even spoken a line. Something is bound to happen soon enough.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    I dunno if the SK is really dead. Well, he seems to have been dethroned and doesn't have the capacity to fight back or resist (so far). However, I'm pretty skeptical that he just died like that. Something should have happened if he's really dead seeing as how urahara/ichibei said he keeps the world in balance. When all is said and done, if he's dead, surely there would be some controversy as to how to proceed in the SK's absence, but I think that would come later if ever.

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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    We also have to consider juhabach has not actually said he wants to be soul king. He aims for the destruction of the world so perhaps his aim was simply to kill the soul king leaving no one to take the seat. So on one hand we might have juhabach stopping people from getting a new soul king in, a group of shinigami trying to get the old soul king his seat back and another group trying to get a new soul king in. I doubt the current soul king is dying just yet at least, he has never even spoken a line. Something is bound to happen soon enough.
    He did tell Ichibei that everything in the world "was his to take", which implies that he intends to dominate rather than destroy. Also the Kaiser Gesang ends with him reclaiming the world, so it does seem to me he wants to rule. Then again his intention might be to destroy the world as it is and then rebuild from scratch. Maybe the transition between Soul Kings can't be made seamlessly and whoever wants to take the world will have to destroy the current world first. But I doubt it simply because it would probably mean killing off everybody.

    I have wondered if this will turn into a 3 way war too though, between Quincy, Shinigami and perhaps Hollows, although Hollows seem incapable of organising without a leader or leaders.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    He did tell Ichibei that everything in the world "was his to take", which implies that he intends to dominate rather than destroy. Also the Kaiser Gesang ends with him reclaiming the world, so it does seem to me he wants to rule. Then again his intention might be to destroy the world as it is and then rebuild from scratch. Maybe the transition between Soul Kings can't be made seamlessly and whoever wants to take the world will have to destroy the current world first. But I doubt it simply because it would probably mean killing off everybody.

    I have wondered if this will turn into a 3 way war too though, between Quincy, Shinigami and perhaps Hollows, although Hollows seem incapable of organising without a leader or leaders.
    The manga has not really gotten into the whole thing about how the transitions between kings would be, at least I don't see any hints at it. However juhabach did start the war by attempting to destroy the balance of souls and when he switched sereitei and the quincy palace he told uruy that the world was ending in 9 days. I agree in that he probably aims to destroy everything to start from scratch though. I guess the issue is whether a king is needed or not for that.

    Hollows have neither culture or values as far as we know. Even those with self awareness live solitary existences as far as we know. I doubt we will see hollows having a stake here. Maybe with the arrancar that we know live it will be a different story.

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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The manga has not really gotten into the whole thing about how the transitions between kings would be, at least I don't see any hints at it. However juhabach did start the war by attempting to destroy the balance of souls and when he switched sereitei and the quincy palace he told uruy that the world was ending in 9 days. I agree in that he probably aims to destroy everything to start from scratch though. I guess the issue is whether a king is needed or not for that.
    Yeah I was just speculating on the transition. I get the sense that Aizen wanted to take over cleanly, but that's only my impression and it's not like there's any basis for him to believe he even could as far as we know. I wondered if the Quincy threw the balance off to weaken the barriers between worlds so the WR palace could be switched with Seireitei, but recently I think Urahara said it was to confuse the G13 or something, which doesn't make much sense to me. I wonder if they were out to collect some of that material Urahara had Yoruichi bring. Or else they might just have been weakening HM in case the Shinigami attempted to ally with Hollows. But anyway, you're right, Yhwach did say the end of the world was coming. Given his character I can imagine he'd be willing to obliterate everything before remaking it to his tastes. It should be interesting to see what he does.

    Moreover, going by the 9 days thing, I'm not sure what day we're on, but there should still be quite a few left. If the 9 days started from when Shatten Bereich was switched out, I think we're in day 2, but if the 9 days started when his eyes opened we're only into day 1 now. And as we've seen in this manga a lot can happen in a day, let alone a week. Maybe it will take time for Yhwach to fully absorb the power of the throne, assuming it works that way, or to spread his influence across the worlds, rather. Or just for the worlds to completely dissolve; it could be interesting if as the manga progressed the worlds got more and more blended into each other before collapsing.

    Edit: Actually he did say the end of the world was 9 days away when SB was switched with Seireitei, so I guess we're in day 2 now.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Hollows have neither culture or values as far as we know. Even those with self awareness live solitary existences as far as we know. I doubt we will see hollows having a stake here. Maybe with the arrancar that we know live it will be a different story.
    Yeah, this is true. Harribel seemed to rule completely hands-off and Barragan was going to have his army fight each other for entertainment. But if Hueco Mundo starts collapsing as well they might at least be convinced to fight Quincy rather than Shinigami. I agree, it's unlikely that they would form their own cohesive army, with any goals whatsoever. I could see Aizen being asked to use the Hogyoku and his influence to get them on side with the Shinigami, desperate as things might get.
    Last edited by NoOneInParticular; January 27, 2015 at 04:52 PM.

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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Yeah I was just speculating on the transition. I get the sense that Aizen wanted to take over cleanly, but that's only my impression and it's not like there's any basis for him to believe he even could as far as we know. I wondered if the Quincy threw the balance off to weaken the barriers between worlds so the WR palace could be switched with Seireitei, but recently I think Urahara said it was to confuse the G13 or something, which doesn't make much sense to me. I wonder if they were out to collect some of that material Urahara had Yoruichi bring. Or else they might just have been weakening HM in case the Shinigami attempted to ally with Hollows. But anyway, you're right, Yhwach did say the end of the world was coming. Given his character I can imagine he'd be willing to obliterate everything before remaking it to his tastes. It should be interesting to see what he does.

    Moreover, going by the 9 days thing, I'm not sure what day we're on, but there should still be quite a few left. If the 9 days started from when Shatten Bereich was switched out, I think we're in day 2, but if the 9 days started when his eyes opened we're only into day 1 now. And as we've seen in this manga a lot can happen in a day, let alone a week. Maybe it will take time for Yhwach to fully absorb the power of the throne, assuming it works that way, or to spread his influence across the worlds, rather. Or just for the worlds to completely dissolve; it could be interesting if as the manga progressed the worlds got more and more blended into each other before collapsing.

    Edit: Actually he did say the end of the world was 9 days away when SB was switched with Seireitei, so I guess we're in day 2 now.



    Yeah, this is true. Harribel seemed to rule completely hands-off and Barragan was going to have his army fight each other for entertainment. But if Hueco Mundo starts collapsing as well they might at least be convinced to fight Quincy rather than Shinigami. I agree, it's unlikely that they would form their own cohesive army, with any goals whatsoever. I could see Aizen being asked to use the Hogyoku and his influence to get them on side with the Shinigami, desperate as things might get.
    The only thing we know for sure with aizen is that he actually wanted to become the soul king (at least I think we know that for sure, I am wondering if aizen himself actually said that). I do doubt they would need to go to that extreme to make the switch. Technically speaking the palace was already within sereitei. Weakening the balance between the human world and SS does not seem like something that should have an effect on the switch since both were already occupying the same space.

    The weird part is that the 9 days don't seem to have started when the 9 years ended.... Maybe they were kinda independent or maybe the 9 days started the moment his power began awakening rather than when they fully awoke. He did have limited used of them according to what he said about being able to see even with his eyes closed. We got to see juhabach wake up after mask died although for it to be day 2 the war would have had to go on for a full 24 hours. As far as I can tell ichigo took about a half day to get down and the war started 3 hours before he left. So maybe its still day one... Unless the war started precisely at dawn.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Well IIRC, when aizen was leaving SS, he told ukitake that no one sat in the heavens, and that he was gonna occupy it from then on. So I think we can safely say he wanted to take over albeit on his own terms seeing as he insulted the SK and wouldn't have subjected himself to something similar.

    As for the days, whichever way we want to count, there should be atleast a couple left. Enough to rule out the possibility of the war ending with the coming clash (assuming the poem was accurate). Although, technically, it said he would regain the world. Seeing as he just (apparently) dethroned the SK, hasn't he already taken over? I believe what comes next would be Ywach fully assimilating the position and whatever role he has to play concerning the status of the world and all. Or perhaps it doesn't count until he is fully in charge.

    Well, it is to be expected though. Ichibei said Ywach can't be defeated, so Ichigo's group and the incoming Shinigami would probably be repelled.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner henhead's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ok, so the next stage of the current holy war is about to start. Juhabach broke into the palace, defeated the royals and just now stabbed the soul king. The sternriter safe for the elite guard are basically defeated. And now everyone left at sereitei who is willing and able to go to the royal palace is about to head there.

    We have urahara and the gtoei 13 captains. The vizards are going there too. It wouldn't be weird if the surviving yet powerless sternriter actually made a move to get to the soul palace.

    Now, the issue is that this is the right moment for anyone looking for a chance to change the world... literally. Stopping juhabach, doing something to the soul king... Everything is possible at this stage. So this holy war that started out between quincy and shinigami could easily have yet another party who wants to change the world for whatever it is they think is best. In this particular case urahara perhaps finally got his chance to act. Its all chaos... and all he needs to do is have his own little force to help him deal with the potential enemies. There might be a reason why some of the vizards and perhaps tessai seemed to stay behind in the human world even after their names were cleared after all.

    To boot it does not seem like juhabach has that many followers left so perhaps it does make sense for the good guys to split up. So the next turn of the war could be a three way beetween urahara and his allies, the gotei 13 and the quincy. And just to fuck with everyone else, shunsui releases aizen so that he gets his chance too. He seems to be a preferable alternative to juhabach after all, even shutara made the point that the quincy are far more depraved than aizen.

    Any thoughts?
    If there was a three-way jihad, my guess would be: Quincies vs Shinigami vs Aizen.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    I doubt aizen would be a threat if he decides to fight against either side on his own. He lost KS (which held the biggest advantage). Aizen is no longer transcendental, doesn't have a zan, doesn't even have reasonable followership (gin, tousen and majority of the epsada are dead), and while he has been tied up for a while, the shinigami have been getting stronger and stronger, with some receiving ridiculous power ups.
    I do have doubts that he was so absurdly strong as gin had put it back then that no one could even remotely touch his level. Even if he was the second strongest after Yama then, I honestly don't think it was by a lot. IMO, its KS that really gave him the advantage, and even then, it wasn't enough to put him above yama then. We saw aizen go against captain class a couple of times (without them being under KS hypnosis), Isshin matched him quite easily, Urahara could have defeated an aizen already undergoing transformation purely by using kido (which aizen admitted), yoruichi and the aforementioned two did hold their ground against an evolved aizen for a while. Isshin and urahara didn't use bankai and yoruichi ofcourse didn't even use a zan. I think this shows aizen wasn't nearly as absurdly powerful as gin suggested. He was a monster no doubt, but currently, I think there are a number of captains that could match him (assuming he isn't using KS). Both sides are strong enough for aizen to not be troublesome to deal with if he starts opposing both sides.
    Now if we are talking Hogyoku aizen (transcendental), that's a whole other story.
    Last edited by Holt; January 31, 2015 at 05:21 AM.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Start of a 3 way (more or less) holy war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    I doubt aizen would be a threat if he decides to fight against either side on his own. He lost KS (which held the biggest advantage). Aizen is no longer transcendental, doesn't have a zan, doesn't even have reasonable followership (gin, tousen and majority of the epsada are dead), and while he has been tied up for a while, the shinigami have been getting stronger and stronger, with some receiving ridiculous power ups.
    I do have doubts that he was so absurdly strong as gin had put it back then that no one could even remotely touch his level. Even if he was the second strongest after Yama then, I honestly don't think it was by a lot. IMO, its KS that really gave him the advantage, and even then, it wasn't enough to put him above yama then. We saw aizen go against captain class a couple of times (without them being under KS hypnosis), Isshin matched him quite easily, Urahara could have defeated an aizen already undergoing transformation purely by using kido (which aizen admitted), yoruichi and the aforementioned two did hold their ground against an evolved aizen for a while. Isshin and urahara didn't use bankai and yoruichi ofcourse didn't even use a zan. I think this shows aizen wasn't nearly as absurdly powerful as gin suggested. He was a monster no doubt, but currently, I think there are a number of captains that could match him (assuming he isn't using KS). Both sides are strong enough for aizen to not be troublesome to deal with if he starts opposing both sides.
    Now if we are talking Hogyoku aizen (transcendental), that's a whole other story.
    I have always been of the idea that the only reason KS was that deadly was because of the sheer strength aizen had rather than aizen being deadly because of KS. KS is a cool ability but in the end is not one that has the benefit of employing aizen' raw power into offensive techniques. If he had something else it would be ridiculous and hax too simply because of aizen's sheer reiatsu level, he would simply use his power in a different manner.

    As far as the urahara bit, aizen did make the point that if that was not his transcendental self urahara's tricks would have worked however you also have to consider urahara also admitted old aizen wouldn't have allowed urahara to simply use his tricks. And as far as I can tell, urahara, ishin and yoruichi failed to actually injure or otherwise impeded aizen. Ishin even alluded at the conceptual impossibility of them defeating aizen when he talked about how he could not feel aizen's power.

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