I'd say in terms of raw reatsu, the RG beat old man Yama, but then again the Royal Guard seem to have mostly healing/beneficial powers (good luck guarding the soul king with your HOT SPRING OF DOOM!), whereas Yama had focussed his Reatsu solely on destruction - the fire Zanpakuto symbolises that, fire being the classic element associated with destruction. So I'd say in a straight up fight, then Yama would beat at least some of the RG, possibly all of them, however in terms of raw 'power', the Royal Guard are stronger. My 1.2377p
Which significant battle ended with a sword strike to the neck? Call it whatever you want, but it's never happening, so, a delusive idea indeed.
---------- Post added at 02:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 AM ----------
Anyway, as late as it can be, we shall stop here. Please, no more posts about Aizen in this thread, since Aizen doesn't have any common points in explaining the power level comparison between Captain-Commander and the Royal Guards.
For future discussion about how Aizen would rank, use the power level thread. There is also a thread in the fantasy thread subsection regarding this, so, shouldn't be a problem if you move the discussion to that place, too.
Thanks for your understanding.
Last edited by Hakuteiken; December 23, 2012 at 03:56 AM.
Ranking of Captains thread. Please try to keep the discussion limited to Yamamoto vs Royal Guards.
---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------
In regards to the thread, I've gonna say.
Without a zanpakuto, a master of the shinigami arts will have roughly the same limits. They can't surpass that limit (atleast not easily & not without a strange method).
With the zanpakuto, the shinigami will develop specialties (or amplify a specialty) , such as Speed (Ichigo), Perception (Aizen), Destructive force (Yamamoto), Raw Strength (Komamura), Striking Force (Gin), Finesse or versatility (Byakuya), Combat Speed (Ichigo), Assassination (Soifon) & blah blah etc.
You use experience, control & etc to make best use of these.
That is one of the reasons I said Yama can be oppose by several individuals. Yamamoto is a master of the shinigami arts & his zanpakuto amplifies his destructive force.
Another shinigami subjected to the limits of one whose Zanpakuto doesn't amplify his/her destructive force isn't gonna wanna confront Yamamoto in direct combat unless that person is suicidal.
The zero squad consist of 5 members only & these five members are responsible for protecting GOD & The Royal Palace. It's a little out of place to think these people haven't master the skills of the shinigami & their speciality (zanapkuto) isn't it? These guys will have to clean up SS mess if SS are unable to handle their mess so that must mean they must be more than qualified correct? Must they not have the skills to pay the bills?
In fact I think it's possible that these five exceeded Yamamoto because Kirio mention something about doing things to match God's standards. "Our way of doing things encompasses the Spirit King's power along with the millenniums of history behind SS. Compared to Seireitei though we're in a completely different lvl." I think it's possible the King blessed them.
So far these guys (no matter how goofy they look & act sometime or no matter how halfassed they behave) have been on point with the objective without any delays (rebuild SS).
That's some of the reasons I think these guys are 5 Yamamotos or above.
I think Yamamoto had the power but not the contribution to be granted a place in the Royal Guard. So if you are looking at combat power alone, he may be comparable or even stronger than some of the RGs. But to be incorporated into the RG, he would need to have contributed something that changed the history of Soul Society.
IMO... Yamaji is stonger than RG if one on one fighting. I agree with River_Capulet about Yamaji contribute something to SS which is shinigami academy, honestly it's huge contribution from him. I think why he's not be RG because Soul King want him to protect SS or perhaps Yamaji dont want to be RG because he is not interested. I hope kubo will explain something in the future.
Whatever it is... we should wait how powerful is RG is in term of strength, ability & technique. And then we can have some idea if Yamaji stronger than RG or not.
Kay3795: You haven't disproven Hakuteiken's claim that no battle ended with beheading. What you show are battles where head/neck is attacked, but unsuccessfully
Aside from that, you always claim that becoming a master of shinigami arts would make anyone equal to Yama (or something like that). Why not... but that's hard to do, because:
1. Yama was constantly pushing the limit named mastery further (take the formation of ZT East-North-West-South, plus he probably always trains to not get rusted etc.).
2. There's a factor called talent or rate of improvement. There's no doubt Yama's is large, since he was the leader of shinigami when he was young, too, so he must've exceeded even comparably old shinigami, which had about the same time to improve. It may not be as high as for some other individuals (like Gin), but nevertheless hardly paralleled.
Those 2 things make reaching Yama's level (if he was still alive) incredibly hard using normal means (Hougyokuifying for example doesn't count). The only possibility I see for RG keeping up with the hype is the not normal means, and not just regular mastery.
The new breed of shinigami captains are all geniuses (atleast in comparison to the old). Aizen at a young age is already strongest than most & he attain the shinigami master rank FAR earlier than Yamamoto (in fact nothing says Yama had a huge of a talant tbh, atleast compared to the new gen. He is old & experienced war veteran who still had things to learn 1000 years ago).
& yes I know being a master of shinigami arts is not easy to achieve (Hence only Aizen is the only gotei captain member that achieved that same rank).
& only a handful of people can oppose the old man (He ain't the strongest, wasn't meant to be the strongest, doesn't have to be the strongest).
Actually, I asked you about significant battles. We have seen Shaz Domino for a panel? Three at most. I don't think it's anywhere being significant as a battle.
Ichigo vs Byakuya. Byakuya uses Byakurai, but instead of blowing Ichigo's head off with Kidou, he goes to the chest area.
Ichigo vs Ulquiorra. Practically the same. Ulquiorra could have blown up his head with Cero Oscuras. No attack to head again.
Ichigo vs Aizen. Ichigo rips apart Aizen's chest after speedblitzing him, not goes for a head shot (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure).
Kyouraku vs Starkk. When Kyouraku was distracted by Wonderweiss, Starkk shot him from behind, but not in the head.
These are the instances that could be game over with a strike to head, but it wasn't to be.
Captain-Commander had a huge talent compared to the new generation. That's why the enemy boss Juha Bach went to fight him and not the others. That's a very simple deduction.Originally Posted by Kay3795
Then, nothing suggests the new breed to be on par, either.
Shinigami arts aren't mastered easily. Please don't make it sound like it's just the natural process of time and one day all current Gotei captains will become a master of the Shinigami arts. In fact, in all likelihood, they won't.
It still doesn't really add to the argument, though. We haven't even seen if Royal Guards have mastered the Shinigami arts or not. All we have seen is their contributions to the backbone of Soul Society helped them get promoted to the Royal Dimension as an elite Shinigami group. Anything beyond that is purely theorizing something new without any indication.
IMHO what Aizen meant was that he was close to his own limits regarding to mastery of shinigami arts. Everybody has different levels of talent in various categories, for example Aizen failed to cast a full-powered hadou #90 without incantation whereas Yamamoto managed to cast hadou #96 which means Yamamoto's upper limit may be higher than Aizen's in that particular category. It's a strong possibility that senior captains and Royal Guards are close to their own limits too but it doesn't mean they're equally skillful in all shinigami arts. For example shunpo seems to be Kirinji's forte, so he is expected to perform better than his fellow captains in that category. Even though two persons are equally talented, if one of them has more reiatsu than the other, he'll have the advantage in battle. There are various factors that determine the overall combat ability of a shinigami, I don't think excelling in one category lets someone trump all others, it's more complicated than that. It's still too early to talk about the various strengths of Royal Guards, they're no doubt strong but we are kinda in the dark about their overall level. We don't even know if Shunsui was talking about present or past tense, were Royal Guards still stronger than Gotei 13 when Yamamoto, Aizen, Urahara, Yoruichi were in the divisions? Our information about them is very ambiguous at this point.
Then he stabbed Ichigo with Byakurai to the chest to paralysis & since Ichigo couldn't move the entire body http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-12.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-15.html (if Byakurai were aimed at the head, Ichigo will have much much greater chances to react & dodge by moving his head to the side because that's how the body system flows), then he went for the kill (head shot) http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-17.html only to be stopped by Ichigo's hollow power.
Ulquiorra engulfed Ichigo's entire being with CO http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...60-page-3.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...60-page-4.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...60-page-8.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...60-page-9.html
Then there is the whole deal of him wanting to teach Ichigo despair http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-19.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-11.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-12.html
He wanted Orihime to witness that same despair http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-21.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-22.html A very terrible example for you to use.
Ichigo obliterated Aizen. He literally cut him in half http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...34-page-3.html but Aizen is an immortal http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...36-page-4.html
Stark is not a blood thursty killer. He doesn't even like to fight (the espada are influenced by their theme of death, it shapes their character). http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-10.html
Captain commader is a old dude over 2000 years old. He had all the time in the world to get as strong as he did while the new gen consist of characters who are 100 - 200years old. Juha going for him makes sense since he is the oldest, the head captain, most experienced, the strongest, history of SS itself & he is the enemy he oppose over 1000 years ago.
It ain't mastered easily & I said just that (don't know why you should repeat it). Aizen (much much much younger than Yama) is a master of said art. The Royal Guards consist of members who protect God (make a
wildguess). Is their contributions the only reason they were promoted? NOO!! They are also there because they have the skills to protect the soul palace. They (5 members alone) are stronger than the entire gotei 13 (Head captain, Captains, Vice captains, Kido squad & the 1000s even possibly 10th of 1000 of shinigamis).
I suppose so, since Juha Bach one-hit Yamamoto but ordenered retreat before squad 0's arrival.
I replied about our little discussion about beheading in the hangout thread. You're welcome to drop by and discuss.
Let's keep it limited to Captain-Commander and the Royal Guards only.
Again, I'm not making a suggestion here about their actual power level, but say, if someone with less power made a contribution of that scale, how could we be so sure that he wouldn't get promoted?
I would say he would be promoted. I don't see a reason for Royal Guards to be excessively powerful in terms of sheer strength just to protect a seemingly impenetrable separated dimension.
They are not only resposible for the protecting of the Royal Realm, they also would clean un SS mess when SS is destroyed. To protect you need power.