Itach0r of course!
Minat0r cause he's Batman!
Tobi was more impressive, he controlled six jinchuuriki who went full bijuu mode, and actually had their own lives, by himself. Much more impressive than Nagato controlling six normal dead bodies. Meaning that a lot can do it, if TOBI can, unless Kishi didn't plan on Obito at that point.Quote:
Pretty sure Minato or Itachi would have dominated if it was them instead of Nagato. By dominate, I mean beat Naruto even with plot shield on his side.
Shikaku thought it was Itachi controlling some of the Alliance before they found out it was Zetsu impersonating. They didn't even bother to wonder if it was Shisui or anyone else. Which in itself was a good plan to draw out Naruto and Bee, as well as cause damage.Quote:
Only when he was attacked. Until Raikage speedblitzed him twice, Minato was either still or walking. Same with Tobi, he didn't use Hiraishin until he was forced to. Minato vs. 50 Iwa chuunins was the only time he used mostly Hiraishin to fight, in manga. I think it's an easy feat, for almost anyone to get put in Itachi's genjutsu.. or in any genjutsu, actually. How many times have we seen it happen successfully? Even the jounins and few lower-ranked were the only ones to escape the genjutsu at the exam.Quote:
Last part can happen, but I don't see it happening. Itachi's skills with kunai is just as good, if not better, than Minato's. If Minato throws a kunai, Itachi could counter it with his own (not sure if that's likely as Minato's kunai were said to be heavier, so it'd be harder to stop its momentum unless Itachi adds speed to his kunai). Even then, Itachi knows about Hiraishin, he'll be wary.
Yet he still walked away as if nothing happened, other than a loss of artificial hand. Minato was still not getting an advantage until he used Hiraishin v2, which Tobi for some reason didn't know about. Owned is what Minato did to the Iwa nin that slashed Kakashi, or what he might have done to Raikage, with or without Bee's interference.Quote:
Did Tobi even try?Quote:
Who? Minato? Questionable, as Itachi did seal a jutsu in Sasuke that could only be activated on a trigger.
PS. Itachi does have feats in braking seals. If Sasuke can by poping Susano then Itachi most defenetly can do the same. Of course not on all seals but still. Sasuke had a big ass seal on his entire body and poping Susano removed it, his hate was over 9000!
Last edited by xXan; December 07, 2012 at 01:52 AM.
And, when he eliminated the bodies, Naruto was flawless
Probably they didn't even remember who Shisui wasQuote:
Well manga fights will have talking moments and everything, but when the fight heated Yondaime often used Hiraishin or Shunshin to move, and we know by feats that Yondaime is second only to Raikage's Raiton Armour and Naruto with Shunshin, and second to none with Hiraishin.Quote:
And while I believe the Gaikage is the greatest ninja ever, he's far from a genjutsu type, and he dispelled Kabuto's B rank genjutsu effortlessy.
Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu can't be broke, but the finger one will be in a matter of instants
Point is, blocking is no good, because we know Yondaime can teleport in a certain radius from the kunai and knowing like we know that a single touch is all Yondaime needs to mark someone with Hiraishin, Itachi ( and Itach0r also ) can't afford to be touched.Quote:
Not even once
He didn't walk away, he teleported with his hax jutsu ( which doesn't require limbs, but an eye ).Quote:
What you mean isn't owned, is one-shotted:
the kind of things Itachi does best ( he doesn't one-shots, he one-panels )
I think so yeah, I wouldn't keep a contract-breaking seal and a Hiraishin seal on me if I could break themQuote:
Yondaime's feat in Fuuinjutsu easily destroys Itachi's ( Hiraishin is S ranked, the Hakke seal probably is too, and that barrier he wanted to use to trap Kyuubi, and he has extensive knowledge on Uzumaki's Fuuinjutsus, which were said to be the best ), I was talking about Obito
I'm not talking about an extensive period of time ( like days ), but seconds or minutes, which in a fight are essential.
We all know how Sasuke broke that seal, it was the power of hatred, not Susano'o ( considering he couldn't move, Susano'o was the only thing he could've used in that situation ), and Danzou never showed the same mastery Yondaime showed in seals.
And even then, he needed several seconds to muster his hate, meaning that Itachi would require just as much, minimum.
And against Minat0r, which can use Hiraishin at will...
That had to be one of the most biased comments I've ever read. Not even Madara THE Madara can dominate Naruto with his plot shield, Your argument is invalid.Quote:
Nagato is of what has been shown and stated easily the second most powerful character. Itachi already was shown how he fair off against Naruto, pretty equal really but was dominated when B and Naruto double-teamed him.
I was going to post about how i felt about the outcome of the fight but then i realized i don't know the conditions of the fight. I had completely forgot them. Instead of going back to the beginning to read them again i had an epiphany. I realized that the reason i couldn't remember the rules is because this fight is on such a large scale that we, the people of the world, could never even fathom an outcome. In that sense i came to the conclusion that this fight was some sort of metaphor for life and death. Two things in constant struggle to reign supreme. Two things to......
..... Lol im just kidding! Itach0r wins, because Itachi would beat the weaker version of Minato so by power scaling the same is true for their god forms. Oh im tired of Minato hype and fans
Genjutsu is used differently by different people. I think Niidaime MIzukage's genjutsu was originally meant to be Shisui of the Mirage's, but Kishi changed it for some stupid reason.Quote:
Itachi's genjutsu has shown to affect any and everyone. You say Naruto almost broke out, but Itachi added another layer or made it stronger. He can do the same to Minato as well. If anyone, it was Orochimaru who came the closest to breaking out, and he was only stopped by Itachi cutting off his hand. Minato could break out of those type of genjutsu, but he has no known genjutsu feat, so unless proven otherwise, he gets beaten by Itachi.
I doubt HIraishin trick will work on Itachi. The only way Hiraishin will help Minato is if Itachi starts out with an attack instead of genjutsu attempt, and so far, he's started with genjutsu in nearly all of his fights. Deidara and Naruto didn't even know they were in genjutsu until Itachi made it obvious or revealed it. orochimaru only knew because he saw the stakes stopping him from moving. If Itachi wanted, he could either have Minato fight without knowing he's in a genjutsu or freeze him to a spot and follow it up with Amaterasu.
Fights don't really heat up with Itachi, he usually stands still and ensnares his opponents in a genjutsu. Like how Itachi nearly made Deidara blow himself up, he can make Minato stab himself or even run headfirst into a tree if he so wishes.Quote:
I'm not sure if shunshin is enough to avoid genjutsu, since all Itachi needed to put Naruto in a genjutsu was a finger. He didn't even need that long to put Deidara in a genjutsu, right? And didn't Sasuke get Deidara in a genjutsu behind his back? Minato moves only when threatened, and itachi's not gonna threaten him, since it's not the way he fights.
Jounin. He doesn't need to be a genjutsu type, he just needed to yell "kai" to dispel whatever effect it had.Quote:
Questionable, as Itachi can add strength to it as well. Lucky for you, Orochimaru did prove that it is quite possible to break out of Itachi's genjutsu Sharingan, so Minato still has a chance.
But he can't teleport more than a meter away from the kunai, and it'll be far enough that it won't better. And by block, I mean Itachi can throw his kunai to stop the kunai, a lot like Sasuke vs. Itachi weapon-toss battle. Or like what Haku did to Zabuza's shurikens aimed at Naruto or Sasuke or both. And while single touch is all Minato needs, he needs to make sure he gets the real Itachi, not the clone.Quote:
I thought Minat0r could teleport anywhere?
Metaphorically, then. Either way, he still scared Minato shitless (wonder if Minato would have laughed if he found out Tobi was Obito).Quote:
Not one-shot. Neither Itachi nor Minato has one shot anyone, to my recollection. Well, Minato might have, against the Iwa nins and that Iwa spy that slashed Kakashi, but Tobi was never one-shotted. My definition is probably different from yours though, as I consider one-shots to be an action that takes out an enemy in one move. Thoug, Itachi could have one-shotted Deidara, and Tobi would have been one-shotted if he wasn't protected by Mokuton, in my opinion.
Who did Itachi one-panel? Sasuke in Part I?
He still had those seals on him? For all we know, he got rid of them.Quote:
A'ight. DOesn't mean he can asspull any fuuinjutsu though.
Madara would be able to dominate Naruto. In fact, it's Kyuubi and Naruto being chums that keeps Naruto standing against Madara. Madara himself was able to take on five kage, and even two kage and Naruto, as well as a division. It took them having to team up to give him any challenge. I dunno how my argument is invalid when Naruto against Pain would have soundly lost to Madara, and when Madara himself was able to fight the kage and only get hurt because he wasn't serious.
Nagato is easily one of the most powerful, but he's also an idiot, which takes away his power, even if it's because of plot.
I don't remember Itachi being dominated by Bee and Naruto though. Bee himself had some trouble against Itachi, and Naruto and Itachi were evenly matched.
How could he brake the ST seal when he did not know he had it on him? After Minato revelead the seal there is no more teleporting to Tobi so if Tobi removed it or not is a ? mark.
As for the contract-breaking seal what makes you think he did not remove it or that he had anything to remove? The posibility that the link with the Kyuubi was just broken exists. He needed to run to the Kyuubi and bound him AGAIN. Minato's seal could have disapeared on its own after cuting said link with the Kyuubi.
You are using unknowns to support your point. You don't know if the ST was removed or not and how the contract braking seal works. Tobi's Kyuubi control could work in a similar way to a normal genjutsu. Just like a team partner can snap you out but you can be genjutsued again so can Minato put the tag on Madara and snap the Kyuubi out of said control.
Yes we do know and Tobi said it right here:Quote:
Because of his hate he got more power (better Susano). Itachi has armoured up version of Susano so np. Minato could achive the same things Sasuke could and he did not need hate. Hate is not the only way for an Uchiha to gain power and Itachi/Shisui is the perfect example of this.
So Minato can kill himself and take down another target with him... That is about the only thing he has better then Danzo.Quote:
Minato also showed a seal to remove the control over a bound summon. Not sure how his ST tags tie into this but that is space time manipulation and not exacly sealing stuff.
Danzo showed the ability to turn you into a statue with a tauch and the ability to place seals on tounges to incapacitate said target.
Then Danzo showed the ability to SEAL HASHIRAMA'S POWER + Uchiha in his hand. Remember that hand had special seals to keep it like that.
Danzo had acces to just about all the secret info in Konoha so most of Uzumaki seals to. You can be sure he had acces to just about the same level of intel Sarutobi had and Sarutobi even knew the DG seal.
This 2 are VERY close.
No, Saske needed to get to that level of power, once achived its there. Sasuke right now can bust out of said seal (by using Susano) faster then a lighting bolt hits the ground. Itachi can do the same as he has armoured up version of Susano.Quote:
Wow you left me speechless really. So Naruto would get dominated but he is using Kurama who is not his power for some reason and so he is actualy not getting dominated? I am wondering why you are not stating ANYTHING about Madara having rinnegan, wood element and so on because of a power that is not his, its part or completly Hashirama's... How about Nagato? Would you tell me he is that powerfull becaus of a power that is not his, the rinnegan eyes? Hell Madara gave them to him right? How about Kakashi and his eye? Kabuto and how lame he is because 95% of his power comes from other people?
Kurama is 100% Naruto's power. He is a JIN like Bee. Using a biju is what they are about.
Last edited by xXan; December 07, 2012 at 04:09 PM.
So he's really not that bad even on his own.
The only difference is that they're bud buddies now
Honestly, you guys underrate Nagato's intelligence to much, it's true he wasn't the smartest but that mostly because the situation didn't call for smarts. Otherwise how can someone with intense charisma and knowledge to bound the entire Akatsuki together as well as have them all obey him, hell when he talks not a single character can actually disagree with the seeds of logic he force into them (not even himself). He also seems to know much more than Itachi about the Madara, Akatsuki and the Bijuu.
Itachi did fight both Naruto and Bee equally but RESPECTIVELY. when they faced him together he quickly retreated.
See the page you linked, "he let his hatred grow and his body adapted", Susano'o is not his body, is a Doujutsu.
Obito never mentions Susano'o
As for Fuuinjutsu, if we wanna compare Yondaime with Danzou only because Danzou created a seal to apply on someone's tongue, then go ahead that's the classic type of fuuinjutsu a ninja is expected to have, but of course he's talented, no one is saying otherwise.
Comparing him though to someone who has, to my memory, a plethora of S rank Fuuinjutsus ( Hiraishin, Hakke Seal, DG Seal, Hiraishin barrier ), several seals unknown to which you add even more seals ( contract breaking seal ) imo its a bit unfair for him, 'cos Danzou showed a binding seal overcome by hatred and a seal applicable in a non-combat situation.
At best, he can say he has 2 S ranked seals, which are half of the S ranked seals Yondaime has showed to be able to do in a 2 chapters fight
How its arrogance if Naruto forced a hit? I assure you, Naruto isn't slow, even in base
It all comes down to knowledge:Quote:
without knowledge, Yondaime wouldn't know about genjutsu but Itachi wouldn't know about Hiraishin either, meaning, knowing as we know that Hiraishin is faster, he would get the win.
With knowledge, Itachi has way more chances to win, but even then its close, since he doesn't have an answer to Yondaime's speed, and getting caught in a Sharingan genjutsu isn't as easy as the Sasuke vs Deidara fight seemed to be ( even though it was grossly overestimated imo ), considering also Yondaime fought a Sharingan user empowered by Senju powers without being caught in a genjutsu
He put Deidara in a genjutsu because Deidara was a kid blabbering about art while looking Itachi straight in the eyes and Sasuke caught Deidara because Deidara again didn't even bother not looking at him in the eyes, having a counter to him.Quote:
The finger genjutsu gets easily dispelled
And Yondaime is ( was ) a KageQuote:
Considering Yondaime showcased more arm strenght than Itachi ( which is yet to sever a giant tentacle with, apparently, only a kunai ) and knowing like we know that Hiraishin kunais weights more than normal kunais, not only Yondaime's kunais would be faster, but also they would be more difficult to block.Quote:
Exactly, meaning he's invulnerable
You are confusing one-shotting with owningQuote:
one-shotting is a form of owning, but not the only one
Itachi one-shotted ( in order ):
Naruto ( not properly one-shotted, but ensnared in a genjutsu effortlessy )
Orochimaru ( 2nd time )
Sasuke ( both in part 1 )
And Nagato, but with crucial help from Naruto and Bee
Now surely, but then? Not so much.Quote:
And being, say, unable to have Sharingan powers for the seconds needed to break a seal would mean Itach0r would lose
So yes, he can asspull whatever he wants you name it, he asspulls it.Quote:
Sage mode? What sage mode? If he does not have the stolen ability to draw nature energy how is he using that? Is he even able to go SM if he does not have ANY of his "stolen" abilities?
After Oro removed his "stolen" abilities (that where Oro's) he drops out of SM. That Juugo dude does state something about droping Kabuto out of SM, so em no idea how relevant it is.
Not even sure that Kabuto even has the chakra capacity to use SM with no stolen abilities (like Karin's). He sure as hell was not a chakra monster at any point. He was about the other way around needing pills to keep fighting Tsunade.
On his own and the last we got to see of him he is on Kakashi level from part 1, now that IS lame compared to what we have curently in the manga. Kakashi himself is not that good MS or not. Sasuke would 2 shoot him even with arrows alone.
Curent Kakashi would 1 shoot him with Kamui...
Seriously removing his "stolen" power and he is not left with much. Not that this is relevant. The "stolen" abilities are his and with them he is very dangerous man. Actualy no idea what he is left with curently after Oro removed his power.
Oh and lame = anybody that is not Tobi, Madara, Naruto, Bee, Sasuke, Itachi and so on as you get the picture, the really powerfull people in this manga.
No need to check that link. He gained power and then we get the next level of Susano in the same page... Its obvious the indirect boot from said POWER is the Susano. Look at that link again the seal did not disapeared as he got to hate level 2. He was inside Susano with that seal still on him. It faded after that as Susano formed completly. His chakra gained more "power" going darker and allowed him to summon a better Susano (karin stating crep about his chakra). Itachi already has that "chakra power" as his Susano is evolved to armour mode. Then it faded after a little time as he was inside Susano.
Oh yes let's do compare this long list of Minato's seals with that of Danzo's.
Hiraishin seal. Only good as a becon for him to teleport to BIG WOOP. If you don't have the ability to teleport this seals are USELESS.
Hakke Seal - that even Bee knows about. Orochimaru knew how to mess with it, he knew how it worked. Danzo worked with this man and was top dog (aside for the Hokage) he most defenetly knew how this works.
DG Seal that was not unique to him and Sarutobi knew it, Kushina knew it and Danzo probably knew it to. No reason to belive he did not. He had his claws into evrything in Konoha.
Hiraishin barrier, like the thing that warped the Kyuubi blast? That was a ST jutsu not a seal. He did use the Kunai seal as a trigger but its a jutsu, he does handseals for it.
Contract breaking seal, yeah braking summon control. Nice but still nothing to place him leagues above Danzo.
I can say the same for Danzo as he was as old as Sarutobi and had his hands in anything going on in Konoha.Quote:
No, by pure power. Hate only allowed Sasuke to unlock more power. Hate alone does crep nothing to it. Again if you look at my link the seal is STILL on Sasuke even after Susano pops.Quote:
Still a seal. The seal trigger is speach so its on the mouth. You can use diferent triggers like moving your hand. Capture someone and place the seal on the hand, if they move BAM drooling on the floor.Quote:
Then don't forget the seal on his hand.
Actualy Danzo with his years and secrets has probably more seals under his belt then Minato (again probably). What you should be arguing about is Minato's skill in appling said seals and that would be above Danzo's. But Danzo is like a walking information database. Minato did get a Uzumaki as a teacher but remember she was removed from the Uzumaki clan as a young girl, the number of techs she knew... Yeah some but still. No idea how much she got after. Perhaps that women that teached her about love also showed her some more techs (Hashirama's wife was she?).
Still as "who knows more seals" is a close fight between this 2 men. Who can apply them better is another story.
PS. I did use some speculation as we don't have much going on about the both of them.
Last edited by xXan; December 08, 2012 at 02:37 PM.
If Naruto gets Sharingan or Rinnegan, and masters it, it'll be his own power because he's the one that had to train to use it, and it uses up his chakra. With Kyuubi, training was not required at all, especially if all Naruto wanted to do was take its chakra like in Part I.
It's not really a plot shield as we see how Kyuubi was able to influence Naruto.
He fought smartly against JIraiya, to some degree. Why wouldn't the same apply against Naruto? It did call for smarts, especially since Deva's power couldn't be used for a while, and the bodies kept dropping like flies.Quote:
He wouldn't need knowledge. He had power, and a plan. And even then, some characters have opposed Nagato or not talk to him as respectfully, and if they saw Nagato's true body, they'd actually try to attack him.
Considering Nagato did form Akatsuki, it makes sense he knows plenty about it. But it's debatable in regards to Madara.
Anyone would retreat against two perfect jinchuurikis without Rinnegan. Plus, he was controlled by Edo Tensei.Quote:
He countered by having a clone toss his real body with rasengan at Deva, who thought he had enough time to use Shinra Tensei before Naruto got hit. Naruto never ran there, and if I recall, Naruto himself thought of this plan because he knew that was the only way to beat the time limit.Quote:
But Itachi would know about HIraishin since almost everyone does, and Minato should know about genjutsu since Sharingan is associated with genjutsu. He wouldn't know just how good Itachi is with genjutsu, and Itachi wouldn't know just how fast Minato is. And Hiraishin being faster doesn't mean he'd get the win. If it weren't for the kunai he left near Raikage, Minato wouldn't have been able to get on Raikage's back.Quote:
Itachi does have the answer to Minato's speed - Sharingan. Itachi's not a slowpoke either, he could keep up with Bee and Naruto, although I think Naruto did hold back against Itachi though.
Why wouldn't it be? Everyone that has fought or stood against Itachi has been put in his genjutsu, whether aware or unaware. Only Sasuke and Bee have escaped from his genjutsu, and that's because of Sharingan or the bijuu. Minato gets no benefit of the doubt. That's like me saying Itachi is uber smart, so he'll see Hiraishin and where Minato moves and react in time when not even the Raikage could react in time.
Probably because Tobi didn't want to use genjutsu, or couldn't because he was controlling the Kyuubi. Or he didn't know how to use genjutsu at the time. Or because he wasn't good enough to use genjutsu quickly enough on Minato. Doesn't mean Itachi will have the same luck. Tobi could use Mokuton and other jutsu like fire jutsu and that Uchiha barrier jutsu, as well as warp weapon throw no jutsu, but he never did.
Deidara didn't even know he was in genjutsu in either of those case until the Uchiha revealed it. Why would Minato know if Itachi deceives him with a genjutsu that looks realistic? Like I said, Itachi could even make Minato kill himself thinking he hit the enemy.Quote:
Took Chiyo and Sakura to dispel it, two nins. Might be harder than you think.Quote:
So was Orochimaru. Hiruzen's first choice, who'd have become kage if he wasn't twisted. Still fell to Itachi's genjutsu, still had difficulty breaking out.Quote:
Orochimaru is the only reason I even give Minato benefit of doubt against Itachi's genjutsu.
A giant chakra tentacle, which may not require much strength. And Itachi did throw Kakashi, if I recall. And picked Sasuke up with one hand in Part I. Wait, he might have thrown Part II Sasuke, not Kakashi. And wasn't he matching or nearly matching in strength against Naruto and/or Bee?Quote:
Faster is debatable. More difficulty in blocking is plausible. But, Itachi could either add extra strength or enhance it with chakra, or even use two kunai for every kunai MInato throws.
So no need for tags. And wouldn't Susano'o mean Itach0r is invulnerable as well? Or at least Izanagi? He can surprise attack Minat0r, though he can't surprise genjutsu Minat0r like Tobi did to Konan.
Aren't they the same? Orochimaru was two-shotted because he was put in a genjutsu, and then had his hand cut off. Even then, Orochimaru could have still fought.Quote:
Kakashi doesn't count as both had fought for a while.Quote:
Nagato vs. Itachi and the jinchuuriki is not canon for me because as much as I think Nagato is stupid, he's not THAT stupid. As far as I"m concerned, they never beat Nagato, and that Kabuto is the reason why Nagato even got sealed away.
Assumption. Irrelevant. Like everything in life.Quote:
Not really, as Itach0r has his own taijutsu skillz to depend on. And, this is assuming Minat0r gets Itach0r or his real body. Susan0'0 and cl0nes make Itach0r nearly imp0ssibl3 to t0uch0r.
So, he can asspull seppuku no jutsu and kills himself. Itach0r wins.Quote:
With just SM alone he's easily on SM Naruto's level, I'd say even better because of his intellect, movement efficiency and what not... Base Mode Kabuto > Base Mode Naruto.
Kabuto himself said that you only can gain SM by training yourself at Ryūchidō, how Juugo's ability influence this isn't even known, but if you ask me it just works as a catalyst so that he can stay in sage-mode indefinitely, otherwise he has the same 5min. time limit as Naruto, after which he would require to recharge.
Heck... Edo Tensei alone already makes him ridiculously overpowered. And don't even try on me "but thats a stolen tech as well..!" otherwise you can also say Naruto "stole" Rasengan from Jiraiya or Sasuke "stole" Chidori from Kakashi, just because they happened to learn those techniques
Also, what kind of Big Shots are we talking about? Madara? EMS Sasuke? Full Bijuu Mode Naruto? Wow, big deal, those guys would stomp even most of the Akatsuki guys in a flash... are they lame as well because of that? I'd disagree.
And if you want to drag that overrated electrocuted bull-charging steam-hammer from Kumogakure into this I'am going to disagree as well. SM Naruto has already shown that thanks to the advanced senses a sage is able to keep up even with the difference in speed.
But alas, this is getting way too off-topic, so I'll just suck up my fandom pride and leave it at that