Itach0r of course!
Minat0r cause he's Batman!
Does not matter how much Kabuto knows compared to Tsunade when she was in kindargaren. What is important is compared to curent Tsunade.
His ability to heal like that is a KEKE. That is not about skill or anything like that. He is a mutant like individual.
Yes he is good at medical tech but to state he is ABOVE Tsunade is just wrong. If he was so good he would be the one healing Oro. He is defenetly BELOW Tsunade in healing. He is good but not that good.
I don't agree with base mode Kabuto>Naruto. Naruto has a ton of clones, Rasengan and other crep. Kabuto like he was in part 1 would get MUREDERED vs curently Naruto in base mode. He can summon frogs to rofl stomp his but.
Don't even agree with SM Naruto<SM Kabuto but not geting into that as it is a close fight.
Yes you need to learn the thing from an elder SM user just like Naruto but you need the requirements to be able to learn it. Like chakra capacity. We don't even know if Kabuto is skilled enough to draw in energy and mix stuff well enough with no Juugo added power. Take JMan and how he was not. Not ready to belive Kabuto is when we have no sign of it.
You need Naruto/JMan level of chakra to even use SM. Kabuto was at no point showed as having that.
EDO tensei can be used because of his "stolen" power MOST DEFENETLY. If you remove Oro's chakra he can't use that. Props for him to taking it at another level but he can't do it with no Oro support.
Yeah the big boys in the manga now would stomp most of Aka. Thing is someone stated how lame Naruto is with no Kyuubi and he is only doing what he is doing now because of outside help from Kurama that is not his power. That was the point. Well he did not use the word lame but something like that.
If Kabuto can use SM he can keep up with Bee thing is... Can he? Then can even SM Kabuto take down Bee going full power? Sure he can dodge him around but he would get nailed eventualy. Or Bee goes big and bombs his but.
So em do you consider Bunta like Kakashi or a ninja tool? A ninja power? Kurama is NOT a fellow human aiding him from outside, its a ninja TOOL as cruel as that sounds. Naruto can and has controled Kurama even if now he works with him.
How about Madara using Kurama? Is that also not his power?
Kurama is sealed inside Naruto, its his power even if they are working togeder, even if Kuraka is sentien LIKE BLOODY BUNTA but even Bunta is a ninja TOOL.
Em Kurama training was actualy there, remember Bee in the cave training him on how to use chakra arms and what not? How about using shunshin in chakra mode and impacting a wall? Naruto just learns fast.
So in essence its irrelevant if Kurama is sentient. He is a ninja tool.
Kyuubi still has its own mind, as shown in the last few chapters when it was leading and providing ideas. Bunta is also not part of Naruto or Jiraiya or Minato's own power, other than summoning. Naruto does not control Kyuubi, he never did. If he said he hated the Kyuubi, it would stop working with him and even go back to its old self. Bunta himself refused to help out Naruto until he learned that Naruto protected Kichi. That's not own power. Bunta and Kyuubi can think for themselves, they're a lot like Kakashi.
Tobi using Kyuubi taht night wasn't part of his own power. Madara, depends on how he uses it, but if it's like Tobi, then it's not part of his own power other than ability to control it. Bunta is not a ninja tool, considering ninja tools don't refuse to help out their user like Bunta did, or try to kill their user like Kyuubi did.
no, that was Naruto training to use Kyuubi's chakra. Kyuubi was never a part of the training, it was sealed in a cage.... I did mention how Naruto trained to use Kyuubi's chakra, and even said that was all Naruto's power, since Kyuubi didn't help him at all.
No, it's relevant because Kyuubi has free choice to do whatever, and it can lend power. It can think on its own, and it can affect Naruto anytime it wants.
Which is all completely off topic.
Itach0r beats Minat0r, to be back on topic.
Deidara was also one-shotted, plain and simple. One Genjutsu was enough to make Deidara kill himself. The plot (recruiting Deidara) once more saved the day.
Naruto was also one-shotted in Part 2. After putting Naruto in a Genjutsu with his finger, Itachi could kill him effortlessly, if not for Kakashi (who was fighting Itachi) and Chiyo + Sakura (they cancelled the Genjutsu, Naruto was unable to do so).
If we are generous, we can also say that Itachi one-shotted Naruto a second time in the forest.
But I agree that Itachi didn't one-shot/two-shot Kakashi or Nagato. I always think of a one-shot, when a person wins a battle with his first attack. Since normal Genjutsus don't kill, it's still a one-shot in my book, if the first attack is a Genjutsu and the caster can kill/seal/defeat his opponent in mere seconds right after that.
He used Susano'o because it was the only thing he could use while not moving, and the mark was fading because Sasuke's HAET broke it
Yeah, how uselessQuote:
So useless it still allows Yondaime to be on the top 10 of Narutoverse' ninjas despite being dead from 17 years and while showing, like, 1 fight and a half
Still S rank, and one of the strongest jutsu to date
Bee knows the jutsu like he would know a Goukakyuu, it doesn't mean he can use it, and Oro used an A rank Fuuinjutsu to screw it up.Quote:
Considering Oro created a Fuuinjutsu like the Cursed Seal and is one of the most knowledgeable guys in the manga, I don't find it demeaning. Also knowing how it works =/= being able to do it, Naruto knows how Chidori works, yet he wouldn't be able to use it even in a hundred years from now
Still S rank, btw
So, since he had "his claws into Konoha", we can assume he knows every jutsu ?Quote:
Also Hiruzen and Kushina knew it likely because Yondaime told them about it ( if I recall right, in part 1 Hiruzen calls DG "Yondaime's jutsu".
Still S rank, and still something Danzou never ever was hinted to know
Oro too used seals for the Fuuinjutsu that screwed Naruto's Hakke sealQuote:
Still S rank
Alone no, but in conjunction with a lot of other seals...Quote:
Funny, this is the same logic Yondaime fans are said to useQuote:
Assuming a lot
By feats, Yondaime has Danzou beat soundly in the Fuuinjutsu department.Quote:
By hype, Yondaime has Danzou beat soundly in the Fuuinjutsu department.
Danzou was never said to be a Fuuinjutsu master nor he was said to have any peculiar talent in it, while we know Yondaime liked to use Fuuinjutsu and we were told through Kushina that he knew a lot of Uzumaki seals as well.
And if I wanted to feel evil, I could say that Yondaime's key seal ( the one Naruto used to trap Kyuubi again ) was the same seal Rikudou uses
Considering his own army and his own disciple didn't know about it, I don't think its that likely that Itachi knew, considering Yondaime seemed to act solo most of the times.Quote:
Sharingan is an answer to Shunshin, not to Hiraishin
Or trapping a fast moving guy isn't that easy and I highly doubt Madara didn't teach Obito how to do Genjutsu with a SharinganQuote:
True, but I'm saying from the beginning that Yondaime can't escape Itachi's Sharingan GenjutsuQuote:
Try to cut a giant meat tentacle with a knife and then throwing a person with one hand, I assure you the former requires more strenght.Quote:
He did match, as you say, Bee and Naruto, but we know all three of them weren't serious at all in their struggle
Yondaime could too, we know both of them can spam ninja weaponry at high speed and with incredible accuracy, so the weapon would be the game changer, and Hiraishin kunais > normal kunais.Quote:
Minat0r's kunais can pierce
the heavensevery defence
See syx's excellent post for my idea, put in better wordsQuote:
Yeah well, tecnically Itachi needed 3 hits ( KB, exploding clone and Tsukuyomi )
More than stupid, Kabuto was inadequate.
Just by knowing Nagato was a sensor he could've shinra Tensei'd Itachi's Susano'o and be done with it
He then creates a jutsu in the afterlife that enables him to swap Itach0r's life with his own, so Itach0r dies and Yondaime resurrectsQuote:
on the third day
Again it does not matter that one has a mind of its own. Madara controling Kyuubi like a pet it becomes his power. Its no diferent then me using a gun. As long as i can wield that gun its my "power".
Naruto can force chakra out of Kyuubi up to a point. Naruto earned that power. He lost his parents and all the things they could have teached him. Then he had a long number of chapters to gain its power. To the point its extracted its Naruto's own power. The fact that Kyuubi has a mind and can talk to Naruto its irrelevant. Its like Blue Beetle from DC comics.
Having Kurama inside of himself grants him power. Where it comes from its completly irrelevant. If you put him in a fight with however you whant he can acces that power as long as that happeneds its his power.
Its no diferenet then Captain Marvel receving his powers from Shazam. Again NOT relevant where the power come from, the fact that the one giving them has a mind AS LONG AS NARUTO CAN USE THEM. As long as that happends are part of his power set.
Em no. Trough hate his chakra got a boost trough that boost his Susano got a new level and allowed him to brake free. His hate did not do shit aside from giving him a boost to his chakra. Hate as a feeling does nothing to brake a seal.
So you ignore what i said on purpose so you can have an argument? I said its useless if you don't have the ability to teleport but who cares what i said there, let's just ignore what i said right?Quote:
Then his ability to teleport its not the same thing with his seals. Seals act as checkpoints where he can teleport but the teleport in itself its a jutsu like the wormhole he used to transport the biju blast. If you remove the teleport from the seal you get a crep seal. The seal in itself its nothing special. The ST makes it special.
It proves its a well known seal. Yes Bee probably has no idea how to cast it himself. Orochimaru worked direcly under Danzo for a long time. He even upgraded that hand of his. Danzo was up with his secrets for the most part.Quote:
Then your example is bad. Naruto can't use Chidori because he can't do Raiton. Anybody can do this seal as long as he knows how its performed. Chidori only 1 that has the afinity for it. Anyway i get what you wanted to say with it. Thing is Danzo is not some dumbass, he also had access to konoha's evrything for a long time... He was way older then Orochimaru and Minato. If you are telling me he did not know the sealing jutsu that detated back to Hashirama and his wife i am not going to belive it. He would be among the first ones to be interested in them considering his possition.
Not every jutsu but something as imporant as that? Its not like its some Katon, its a seal to pop the death god there. Heh even Orochimaru's attack on the village its even more probable that he knew it.Quote:
Even asuming Minato created it its not important if he did or not create the jutsu but who knew it. I also don't remember the exact words and to bored to look back but he probably meant the jutsu Minato used to stop the Kyuubi. Kushina was probably the one to teach that to Minato.
Thing is that was a clear ST jutsu and NOT a seal in any way. It was a space time barrier. It was even stated on screen what it was. A space time barrier tech, nothing about a seal.Quote:
Minato showed a handfull of seals. Most of them are not even usefull in a fight. Some to hold Kurama in its place (not combat related), some to use ST (good but only for him, its not the seal but Minato's jutsu), a DG seal that kills himself (not that good in combat considering the price you pay) and a seal to remove control from a controled summon. Have i missed anything?Quote:
He probably has more but how powerfull are they? If he could turn Tobi into a statue and then slice him in half (like Danzo) why did he not do it? By killing Tobi he would obviously remove his control on the Kyuubi to?
Well if you whant to go with what was showed i am fine with it. The only usefull seal in a fight that Minato showed is the DG seal that kills himself (great seal i must say) and the ability to remove the constrol of a summon. Aside from that he has nothing. Danzo's ability to turn people into statues is close enough to this.Quote:
The rest of seals are just about minigless. His ST seal is useless as a seal. Its usefull to him because he has space time techs that need them but the seals itselfs are useless.
Not really Non combat for Minato:Quote:
Biju seal and that is about it.
Non combat for Danzo:
Seal to keep your entire army unable to talk if captured and make them go drooling on the floor.
Ability to keep sealed Hashirama's power.
So who is better here? Depends on personal oppinion more then anything. Let's say they are close enough.
Combat seals for Minato:
ST seals that are about useless as a seal and only good because Minato has space time techs.
DG seal that kills himself. Cosidering the price he would end up having to pay how usefull is this? Good none the less but still the price is very heavy. You take out 1 enemy and just about leave Konoha with no Kage.
Seal to remove control over a summon. Good but can only apply to some very rare casses. If that was a normal summon that is not bound trough some type of control Minato's seal was uselss.
Danzo combat seals:
The make you into a statue thing. If Tobi knew this seal when he grabed Minato ad tryied to warp him Minato would be dead right now.
Then this seal:
Good thing Tobi has the abilities we know he does or he would be dead and Sasuke with him. Youu can look at this as a somewhat weaker version of DG seal, what makes it better then DG seal in an area its the fact that its AOE. So that puts it close to the DG, not as good but close enough.
So as you can see they are DAMN close.
If we go by hype then he can take down RS himself going by some posters around here. Thing is what i was doing above was not talking about Danzo's hype but considering the acces he had to information in konoha, his status and his workings with Orochimaru it would end up just about imposible for him now to know sertain important seals in Konoha but whatever.
Danzo was not said, he was straight on SHOWED SO. No talent but he turns Sasuke into a statue and almost kills Tobi and Sasuke at the same time... Ok... He is able to seal Hashirama power and is able to make his entire army unable to speak about his secrets... Kushian said she showed him a bunch of seals true what where they? How good are they?Quote:
You can be as evil as you whant but i would really like to see how you are going to prove that Naruto's plot no jutsu RS seal comes from Minato lol. Naruto never learned ANY seal from Minato, Kushian or anybody else... He just poped that because he is Naruto.
All in all Danzo was showed to use or have a wide variaty of powerfull seals. He easy easy on Minato's level of seals information. Now what he is not is in appling them.
But Minato does know a seal that was passed down from RS himself. Thing is he is not the only one. That is the ability to seal biju in a host. Thing is all the villages can do that. Not as good as his seal from what i get but still.
Last edited by xXan; December 08, 2012 at 08:02 PM.
How do you know his army didn't know about it, when they've said to keep an eye on Minato and not to blink? Obito's a tard though, he doesn't count. He choked on a candy in a fight, and you wanna use him as a comparison?Quote:
Or, Tobi just couldn't do genjutsu because of Kyuubi.Quote:
I know. But I'm also saying there's a chance that could happen.Quote:
It's a chakra tentacle. Can't be that hard to cut or at least, you can't compare it to normal tentacles.Quote:
thought Itachi was more serious when he was under ET control.
True, but Hiraishin kunai once again depend on where they are. If Minato or Itachi reveal Hiraishin or Amaterasu the first time and it fails, the chances of it working the next time goes down by quite a lot.Quote:
Raikage and Sasuke were able to dodge Amaterasu only because they knew it was coming. If Minato knows it's coming, he can avoid it before he gets hit. Itachi likewise can be more wary of kunai and wherever Minato touches, as well as bunshins. Minato can't tell clones from the real one, and he'd get hit with the explosion.
But it cannot pierce the Izanagis or clones to get the real one.Quote:
But Itach0r uses Izanagi to get around it adn lives, while Minat0r uses seppuku no jutsu and gets put in Izanami. The dead have no resistance.Quote:
Minato used the "Eight Trigrams Sealing Style" to seal Kurama within Naruto, a sealing he learned from Kushina.
While in Kumogakure the "Iron Armour Seal" was used to seal Gyuki in Killer B ( a seal considered inferior to Minato's seal).
Minato knows nothing about the RS seals
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 09, 2012 at 05:35 AM.
As usual, its useless to argue with you when you are set on something.
Believe what you want
He didn't, and considering Naruto charged him super fast with a Rasengan I don't think he had all those options left
The guys laid out billions kunai, and were all like "and now?" so yeah, as I said the only ones that knows about Hiraishin are the ones that saw the jutsu.Quote:
And unless I'm wrong, Itachi never fought alongside Yondaime
As for Obito, stupid as he is he still controlled the whole Akatsuki, Nagato and Itachi.
So yes, I can use him as comparison
My point is that, if Yondaime connects with Hiraishin, its overQuote:
This is stated where?Quote:
Nowhere it indicates that Obito's doujutsu was worse, hell he spammed Kamui well enough without a single problem.
I dunno, if Oro couldn't... Its also true that pain would theorically be enough, but then again when against Uchihas people tend to forget useful factsQuote:
Considering Naruto and Kyuubi's chakra tentacle stopped Juubi's Bijuudama, I'm inclined to agree a chakra tentacle is better than actual meat.Quote:
Though, considering Sasuke set it on fire, we can assume they have similar properties, since Kyuubi withstood a Bijuu's acid chakra without a problem
If they fail, in both cases its pretty difficult, considering the nature of the jutsus.Quote:
And even then, Yondaime would have V2 while Itachi would have Tsukuyomi.
If Sharingan abilities are sealed, Izanagi is too face it, Itach0r loses by plain inferiority.
Don't you hear the millions and millions of fans giving Minat0r the strenght, the passion he needs to overcome this obstacle?
Naruto used Yondaime's key to trap Kyuubi again, and Kyuubi recognized that jutsu/Fuuinjutsu as Rikudou's.
We don't have any solid info about that one. We don't know if minato is the one who created that key or it's one of the sealing jutsu of the uzumaki clan. But one thing for sure, minato's key was recognized by kurama as rikudou's jutsu.
And no. I doubt every sealing jutsu from the 5 great villages to their jinchuuriki came/passed down by rikudou himself. I'm pretty sure the suna's sealing ritual for the ichibi was created by the suna's sealing expert. And so are the kumo and I WA. The only thing that makes kurama's seal special, t'was created by the uzumaki clan. As you know, the uzumaki was said to be the amazing sealing experts of the ninja world.
Also can you exactly tell me where in that page it was stated that's the Rikudo seal ? Kurama only made an allusion about RS but never finished his sentence. He most likely said because the shape of the seal resemble one of the RS Magatama, thats about it.
Again Minato doesn't know anything about RS seals. Here B state that Minato's seal is a high quality one and stronger than his "Iron Armour Seal"
As for Kyuubi recognizing the seal, here's below the translation of this chapter you can find on this site
Its pretty clear he's talking about the seal
I told you already, but, I'll explain in detail now :
Kushina taught Minato the "Four Symbols Seal".
In order to seal the Kyuubi, Minato used two of the said seal to create "Eight Trigrams Sealing Style".
To help Naruto control the Kyuubi's power he left the Key of the "Eight Trigrams Sealing Style" In Gerotora.
Naruto then used the key to open the seal and the seal itself was destroyed right at the spot.
Now the "Eight Trigrams Sealing Style" doesn't exist anymore.
Naruto then created a new seal called "Torii Seal" to bind Kurama-Chan and control him however he want.
The "Torii Seal" is the one That Kurama-Chan said resembles the RS (Still not convinced) Seal.
Thus, Minato has nothing at all to do with the Torii Seal and as such has nothing to do with the RS seal.
Get It ?
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 09, 2012 at 12:34 PM.
Also, just for the lulz:
what curious markings Naruto had on his arm.
hold on a moment, why those markings are still there?
didn't Naruto just closed the seal he previously opened ? With the same method he used to open it?
Lastly, why the Kyuubi was trapped inside Naruto if the seal broke? Naruto just opened the seal, same way he opened it here, and yet you don't see the Kyuubi exiting Naruto's body
Basically, Minato can know every RS seals without even knowing they're from RS. I don't see what's so hard to believe about that.
[QUOTE=Uchiha_Blood;3197349]He didn't, and considering Naruto charged him super fast with a Rasengan I don't think he had all those options left
Another translation said that Deva said that he had time, exactly the opposite of what he said in your link. And it's Sleepyfans, they suck at overall quality, focusing on releasing their version the quickest. Otherwise why would he have an ! the next page if he thought he wouldn't make it? Naruto managed to get Deva within five seconds because he threw himself, otherwise he wouldn't have made it. Either way, that was such an epi-
OFF TOPIC! STOP GETTING US OFF TOPIC! Let's just leave this as another way to argue Minato vs. Itachi even though that's off topic in a way!
And few others told the newbies what was going to happen, so few do know about Hiraishin. Plus, people not knowing about Hiraishin doesn't mean he was solo. For all we know, he never needed Hiraishin in most of his missions. In my opinion, Hiraishin was just a faster, safer way of killing the enemies, and he had to save Kakashi from those Iwa nins (when they were together and after Obito's "death"). Even against Raikage, he had to use element of surprise and Hiraishin was the only way to dodge Raikage's speed at first. Or part of the plan.Quote:
Pretty sure Minato didn't use HIraishin as much as we think, considering the dude is fast as hell and smart.
I disagree. HIraishin adn genjutsu aren't necessary game-enders, it depends on more than that. Itachi might react if he sees Minato disappearing, like jumping or something. Raikage was in middle of running and thought he got Minato when Minato disappeared. Long shot on Itachi's behalf, but it's Itachi after all.Quote:
Though, I doubt he'll get asspulls since plot doesn't work here. Which is why Izanami shall never be used by me in KA!
Kamui is different from genjutsu, though. Maybe Tobi couldn't use genjutsu second time while controlling Kyuubi, even Shikaku stated that it'd be difficult to do that (or was it the range he was talking about?) before they learned about Zetsu. Maybe Tobi wasn't allowed to use genjutsu since Minato would be beaten.
not that I'm saying Minato couldn't broken out of Tobi's genjutsu or that Tobi didn't think Mianto could ahve broken out. Anything is possible in this situation. But apart from controlling the Kyuubi (before we knew he was planned to be Obito), Tobi hasn't really shown any decent genjutsu feats. Though, I dunno if the two Root were any good at breaking genjutsu.
Like I said, Orochimaru couldn't because Itachi slashed his hand off. Orochimaru was still moving slowly to form a seal to focus his chakra, he came closer than anyone. If Orochimaru had a backup, he could have broken the genjutsu by himself as long as he didn't get attacked. It's why I'm giving Minato benefit of the doubt here.Quote:
I'm throwing his fans a bone. Take it. D: If Minato manages to gain time, he could break out of the genjutsu. I mean, we don't know how good he is with genjutsu, we're just assuming he'd be having a very difficult time, at best, because Itachi's just that good with genjutsu. At least I am.
Kyuubi chakra. In bijuu mode. Which Bee wasn't in. Kyuubi is probably on a waaay higher pedestal than Hachibi. If I recall, even Hachibi's hand was melted by the Kyuubi's bijuu dama in Naruto's head, but Bee did say that they couldn't go all out because he didn't want to put Naruto at risk.Quote:
True, but Hiraishin is more likely to fail than Amaterasu, in my opinion, because of seals and Minato being more likely to use Hiraishin first. Itachi also has Susano'o and the Yata Mirror/Shield. I don't think his Susano'o has any fast attacks though, does it? So that's useful only as defense against Minato.Quote:
Minato's so unfairly put in battles when we don't even know what he has in his arsenal. At least we know some of Itachi's power, and his genjutsu tend to be game-enders. Just ask Deidara or Kakashi.
Oh, right, but Itach0r still has his super duper luper clones! They'll overlap Minato and beat him up to umpteenth degree. But the millions and millions of fans use illogical arguments for Minat0r, so Minat0r loses due to stupidity.Quote:
And the kunai cannot pierce the clones to get to the real Itach0r unless he's right behind the clones or in line of fire.