The discussion is from 3 weeks ago from that scene in chapter 687 in which Zoro cut's Monet's cheek. This is the scene:
Does Zoro use armament haki there? I have reasoned that the only way to explain the blood in Monet's face is that Zoro cut her using haki. With out haki, it would be like a cut in ice wich wouldn't produce any bleeding.
Hoeru and Mr Arachi have found weird the possibility to imbue haki to the air. I trully don't understand their reasons, but I think, ultimately, it has been accepted that without haki is not possible to explain the blood. Only that, against the idea that it's possible to imbue haki to air, hoeru has reasoned that the haki that makes possible to cut Monet comes from Tashigi's hug in that moment, and not from Zoro's ability to imbue haki to air. (The possibility was saw by Strawhat13).
Well, the technique Zoro could be using there is called Sanjuroku Pound Ho. It was used firstly against Brahma in this Battle from Skypia arc. Wikia says about it:
I was reading previous chapters to the arrival to Punk Hazard, and I found that, in fact, Zoro used the same technique here... and with armament haki, as we can say because of the dark color in the water pushed by it, that we can see in the space between the ship and the fish:Quote:
So, the Sanjuroku Pound Ho can push other fluid mediums different than air. It is like if Jimbei would imbue haki to his Ushimizu.
Last edited by ukimix; November 25, 2012 at 12:04 AM.
I thought it was absolutely clear that zoro used haki on that page. He is obviously able to cut a object at a distance, but the technique he used to cut her HAS to have been infused with haki. Rules to certain techniques don't suddenly change just because you got stronger. No haki, means no touching a logia. It doesn't matter how strong you are, the rules stay the same.
I think it was implicated a few pages later that he only cut her cheek like that to show her that he COULD use haki if he wanted to. And when he cut her after, he decided not to use. It's all mind games on zoro's part.
Left panel in the middle, also explains it to a degree.
Zoro also did not use haki on that fish. The technique is just one of extreme air pressure forced upon the target, actually cutting them. But the dark you see between the fish and the boat is just a drawing technique by the writer to highlight the pressure zoro is forcing upon the fish under water.
Also, the explenation's given by the two users you posted, don't really make any sense. It wasn't after zoro cut monet, that tashigi and monet knew zoro was a haki user. I could be wrong, but there was no mention of it by them, that he could use haki. It was the cut that gave it away, thus highlighting it even more as a haki technique.
Last edited by scandalous'; November 25, 2012 at 09:58 AM.
I'm still not convinced, as there's nothing pointing so far that Busoshoku Haki can be imbued into *AIR*, as Zoro didn't throw neither a snowball nor an ice pickle on Monet's cheek. In addition, Monet just had to become vincible - not only her ice teeth - so her attack on Tashigi could succeed. Everything we've seen so far included only imbuing Haki into solid objects. Even though Zoro's technique makes air sharp as a blade, I don't se how that is as solid as a real sword, one's fist or a gun bullet.
There's just too much left unclear like how much Monet mastered her logia ability or if she was much too confident in her abilities and was just too careless - like when Luffy rammed Smoker and Ace in Spice Bean. And that part could be explained then by Zoro recognizing her "state of unreadiness" with Kenbunshoku Haki.
And let's not forget: If it was possible to imbue Haki to air, it shouldn't be any problem to imbue Haki into one's surrounding air which would reduce a logia DF to a mere paramecia as logia users couldn't become intangible anymore within an area of the Busoshoku Haki user.
If there's some irritation on Zoro either not using Busoshoku Haki or not being able to use Busoshoku Haki at all actually comes from the preceding chapter where he never really tried to attack Monet until Tashigi arrived and cut her for real.
Zoro only could have used CoA with that slash, there is no other possibility at this point.
Monet is a Logia which are obviously intangible. Even if she is solid for a moment to attack and hurt Tashigi, that does not mean that she is tangible, those are 2 different things (pretty much proven here http://www.batoto.net/read/_/139225/...y_mangarule/12), the next, immediate panels show that again, Zoro cuts a solid Monet in half but this time without Haki. If she is bleeding and hurt as a Logia, then she was attacked with Haki, easy as that. Somebody touching a Logia with Haki does not make them tangible either because unlike Seastone or BB´s ability, Haki (CoA) does not prevent the user to use his ability, a Logia in particular is still his element even upon being touched or held with Haki, pretty much proven here: http://www.batoto.net/read/_/106234/...by_mangarule/3 and here http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/...by_mangarule/7. So even if we do not see it in that panel, this is proof that Haki can be used in combination with air slashed what i actually like btw.
Now, how an air slash imbued with CoA works in detail is of course interesting but not a question we can answer 100% correctly. My reasoning always was that an air slash is just a normal slash which is so strong that the slash itself can actually fly through the air towards the target (remember how Zoro had to increase his strength to develop the technique 36 pondo ho), so that it can be imbued with CoA is actually quite logical. Also, following my logic makes hoeru´s point void, you do not actually imbue the air with Haki but the slash you are executing.
Btw, i also would never use comedic relief scenes to explain the rules of the OP world or we would have to discuss about Sanji and Nami having Haki pre-TS and so forth.
You guys are expecting that air can be imbued with Busoshoku Haki without any explanation so far from the manga - unlike Sanji and Nami beating up Luffy which was clearly explained by Oda in the SBS as "Luffy'S DF doesn't protect him from his friends", which is just another hint that careless DF users can be completely defenseless.
1. A medium in which he loses his power to become intangible but keep his other DF powers. (user grabbed by a user of CoA)
2. a medium in which he loses his power to become intangible and his otrhe related powers. (user chained by sea stone chains)
3. A medium in which you can´t breath because the oxigen is removed from the air. (Ceasar Clown case)
the third one could be the most dangerous, because if you can breath, at least you can throw a punch or use CoC or bite, etc. The whole thing would depend on what else that guy can do besides the trick that he can imbue haki in air. So I wouldn't be afraid that such a power would exist in One Piece ;-)
---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------
Maybe you think that that posibility would make pointless the logia DF, but that's not the case. It would only increse the speed of the haki CoA user over the logia user. That's all. And this arc has shown that in a fight between a haki CoA user and logia user the speed and the power in the hits, are the key factor to the victory.
Your biggest problem seems to be the misconception that the air itself is supposed to be imbued with Haki but i even explained that, so if you do not have any points to actually disprove something i would suggest you keep more of an open mind.
You are denying that Logia users are actually quite vulnerable as their intangibility is not in auto-mode as you suggested, which is proven wrong by the Spice Bean incident where Luffy rammed both Smoker (not knowing what was about to happen, but who was preparing an attack on Ace!) and Ace (seeing what was coming, but did NOT turn on his intangibility mode). That is hard canon fact.
On the other hand, it's YOU who conjectures that busoshoku haki can be imbued into air without any proof whatsoever. Arrows and bullets are solid projectiles, air on the other hand is not. Even you have to see the difference, don't you?
Now what is more possible:
- Zoro imbuing Busoshoku Haki into air - which is NEVER said to have happened before in the manga, not even when Mihawk fired that giant slashes in Marineford which was the biggest opportunity
- Zoro observing the enemy with Kenbunshoku and hit Monet right on time to cause enough irritation?
I know most are going to choose No.1 because it's simply catchy... But on the other hand it just opens the door to Busoshoku becoming a very broken power, even more powerful than tha Haoshoku.
Better late than never:
And now the Busoshoku is the third power to put the Logia users in such a disadvantage?
There's just too much skill development at once compared to Luffy.
Last edited by hoeru; November 27, 2012 at 06:52 AM.
I just have to say to all of it: YESSSS. Good for the story if Zoro has that kind of new power, and it is much better if it happens that he is the first pirate in the whole One Piece history able to imbue haki in air. Just the kind of development that the straw hats need for and that will take them to his final battles. ;-)
---------- Post added November 28, 2012 at 03:23 AM ---------- Previous post was November 27, 2012 at 09:12 PM ----------
From the spoiler, it seems that what Vergo does in chapter 690 is also using CoA at a distance. The New World is scary, hoeru. ;-)
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any new power from Zoro, nor that he's to surpass Mihawk, nor that Zoro shouldn't be able to combine Haki with his sword skills and so on. Heck, if Oda wants to pull this out - so be it.
All I'm saying can be broken down to three thesis:
- "I don't believe it is able to imbue Haki into a non-solid object like air."
And at this moment, all you've got is Monet's bleeding cheek which can be explained otherwise by canon facts such as: (2) and (3)
- "Logia users are non-intangible at some point when they are unprepared for being attacked."
BTW: Tashigi was disarmed, Zoro said he would let Tashigi do as she pleasess without intervening, Monet tasted the arrogance of a logia user all so far have shown - and Monet thought he wouldn't attack a woman.
- "Having Kenbunshoku/Mantra being displayed as fighting skill in Skypiea to find out the right moment to attack an opponent, Zoro's minor air slash to Monet's cheek could be very well a simple haki-less strike to startle her."
Just look how Satori used his Mantra against Luffy, Sanji and Usopp in the first half of the battle...
All I want is you to show me that there's a glimpse of the prove beyond Monet's bleeding cheek that it's able to imbue Busoshoku Haki into air. One occurance can't create a "must" as there's other explanation for what happened in that moment.
Sorry to be the Scully, dear Mulders.
Last edited by hoeru; November 28, 2012 at 07:11 AM. Reason: maybe it's better to read that way... :/
But Scully, you need and argument to probe that it is not possible to imbue haki in air. You have none, as well as I have none to probe that it is possible to imbue haki into air. So it seems Oda has the final say.
sry to jump in to the discussion in the middle of it but.... i am gonna look at that scene in a different way. i think rather than thinking whether or not zoro used haki it would be much more productive to think monets powers. that monster attack is infact tangible as we could see from her skirmish with robin and marines bullet hits her in that condition. about blood i must have to say i am on tashigi kept her from becoming intagible by hugging her. otherwise she would have just taken her shoulder out and zoro just used the opponents downed guard since she thought she wont be cut by him. so idont think zoro used haki in that scene.
robin destroyin her
marine bullet hits
so about imbuing air with haki; or slashes with haki for that matter i think it may not be done. cant say i have definitive proof but if BH could be used to imbue air we wouldnt need HH. i know seems more like an excuse but.. also if i remember correctly logia users ranged attacks have been defended and we know the admirals have haki. so it could be that BH can only be used within weapons that have contact with the body of the user and directly from the body but not with things like air or logia ranged attacks. otherwise it would be magic trick rather than willpower. thou as things stand with haki right now oda might just change everything....
I don't see any particular reason for it to be impossible for haki to be imbued into air. We already have confirmation that armor haki can be imbued to stuff and even maintains its power when applied on arrows. Its just a matter of haki traveling along with the path of the air blade or whatever in this case. When rayliegh showed his haki to luffy he even used it to push back that elephant thingy, perhaps what zoro does is a variation of that. Plotwise the manga would even require a swordsman to do this. Long range slashes are a significant part of the arsenal available to a swordsman as far as we have seen. Still, the attack would be virtually and literally useless without the strength of haki to back it up specially against a logia.